12196 Fund Raising

In Marche (Sarnano and Amandola )there is to an extent an attitude of "It's only Abruzzo, what's with the concern?" BUT the emergency services , voluntary as well as professional were quick off the blocks to help. The Comunes locally are very mixed. Some such as Comunanza are being very active whereas others appear to be dormant. I reckon that they'll all be doing something soon. There is a behind the scenes charity culture to assist with disaster. Folk here are pragmatic and (only my opinion) seem to be waiting for things to settle down, when the true scale of the assistence required is known before stepping up their contribution. People hate waste and will give when they are told specifally what is required.
Maybe wishful thinking. I hope not.

I've seen quite a few opportunities to donate on Italian telly, whether people are or not I don't know.

Chatting to a few people, there is one view and that is that in terms of giving, the Euro5 per Euro1000 of IRPEF which is taken direct from income tax for charity is enough. I have also heard debate that this 5 per 1000 could be switched by government to Abruzzo away from the range of charities which tax payers have selected. Not good, because what is needed at timesof disaster is more money, not switched money.

I have also detected a strong lack of trust that donated funds would reach the right people.This could be a real barrier to giving.

In Spain, both the Red Cross and Caritas have been requesting donations and the Catholic Church has been mentioning the victims many times, particularly in relation to the enormous work that lItaly's Caritas will have to help people to go back to normal life. Blood donations have also been requested by the Red Cross to send to Italy. Also, Berlusconi has asked Prime Minister Zapatero to take care of the restoration of the Spanish Fort in L'Aquila which has been seriously damaged during the earthquake and the subsequent tremors.
The Spanish Prime Minister had asked Berlusconi if Spain could help in any way and he requested the reconstruction of this large fort dating back to the 16th Century, which was built by Pedro Álvarez de Toledo y Zúñiga, viceroy of Naples (between 1532 and 1553), at a time when a large part of Italy was under the rule of the Aragonese Crown (16th to 18th Century) and therefore under the Spanish Crown's domination.
The Spanish government has confirmed that they will pay for the reconstruction, although everyone has the feeling that the idea was to do something more practical which would benefit directly the victims, but Berlusconi has been reluctant to accept other kind of help.
It must be added that the people from L'Aquila were heavily taxed by the Spaniards to originally build the fort, so it could be seen as some kind of retribution.

[quote=Jinty;117432]Well done to all you lovely people on the forum for all the money raise to help the victims of the earthquake
I’m just back from Italy, The Garfagnana to be precise And I’m a bit sad ....... while I was there I expected to see fund raising efforts for the victims of the earthquake – but saw nothing until we went to Lucca for the day where we saw 4 Croce Verde (sic) workers sitting outside a portacabin in the Piazza – but there seemed to be no visible effort to “push” for donations……The request for “help” was only in Italian (in this major tourist attraction) Nor did I see any fund raising in either Pisa or Florence…..
Is there a cultural thing that I'm missing? :veryconfused:[/quote]

The first week the red cross were everywhere with collection points for items to be donated food nappiesetc, the poster even said what they were desperate for.
The shops are still collecting food , but it is not well advertised.
The red cross did come back again and collect and the posters are still advertising where they will be and when to collect items.
I was suprised how fast they were working! I delivered some things the first time and as i delivered it ;it was parceled in to the correct boxes and loaded on a van.

I have been impressed with my area, however you are right it is in Italian and considering the tourists are arriving they could write it also on English.

Oh yes - I sense, and hear about that 'lack of trust' too - but about almost everything.

But when you think about it, I suppose it is understandable. As a people they have had to see, experience and live with all the underhand and corrupt practices that abound here. And they abound 'literally' from the top down.

We 'local' ladies were talking about fund raising for Abruzzo in the bar last week and every one of them said they wouldn't mind if their 'fund raising' (for anything) was done by a foreign entity like the British Red Cross as they felt that their donation would then go where it should. I asked what they meant, and their answers were a bit of a surprise.... (these are how [U][I]they[/I][/U] described it)

[B]"If you give in Italy": [/B]

*The 'official' Otto per Mille (8 for 1000) goes to the church and can be clearly seen in the churches splendour, but [U][I]not[/I][/U] on the feet of the needy [U][I]or[/I] [/U]in the mouths of the hungry. One lady - 92 yo asked me if I knew how much a pair of shoes for the Pope cost? Apparently the cost is almost [I]obscene[/I]! (see below)

* If you give goods/food to 'door to door collections or in supermarkets - then the best bits find another home before they get anywhere near the needy.

*If you donate to various charities via banks etc. much will be lost in government and bank taxes and charges.

*And finally - even if the money does get to where it is needd, after the mafia and all the local cheats have had their noses in the trough - there's just about enough to provide 'sub standard everything' to those who need it.

Yes I [U][I]was[/I][/U] surprised at the anger the discussion generated - after all, I know these people as a generous people. But who can blame them for their lack of trust when confronted with such behaviour and habits? They just don't seem to realise that if enough of them all over Italy said, and voted, to say 'ENOUGH' - then things might slowly begin to change for the better. But I don't think it's 'my' place to tell them that. The most I can do is explain what we have done - and i did, with great pride!

From above:
These slippers and gloves, for liturgical ceremonies, were abandoned by John Paul
[IMG]http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/htimages2/a022ht_9_GlovesShoes.psd.jpg[/IMG]

Popes are now provided with these (once made by Prada, but now by Feragamo)
[IMG]http://www.maddogblog.com/images/pope-shoes.jpg[/IMG]

And these are what many local priests wear (though [U][I]our[/I][/U] village priest wears clapped out old black trainers):
[IMG]http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/-/O/sandals_leather.gif[/IMG]

[quote=Carole B;117442]
[B]"If you give in Italy": [/B
And these are what many local priests wear (though [U][I]our[/I][/U] village priest wears clapped out old black trainers):
[IMG]http://z.about.com/d/inventors/1/0/-/O/sandals_leather.gif[/IMG][/quote]

Carole, the reason for the old black trainers is that he is an ordinary priest. The ones wearing sandals belong to the formerly "discalced" orders and they used to go barefoot. They include Franciscans, Carmelites, Augustinians and a few other orders, both monks and nuns.
As for the Vatican, I would not mind seeing the Pope and the Cardinals wearing sandals and sneakers. I would find it more appropriate.
Sorry, back to the main topic.:wideeyed:

I have tried to advertise the just giving on my facebook account as i lot of english friends are asking how they can donate.. I have put it on my status line, how do i forward it to my facebook.

Just giving said i can foward it to my profile but it is without the italymag link..

Does any body understand at all what i am talking about? it doesnt even make sense to me !!

dont worry done it...just can't post it to my profile...i will do it eventually:nah:

The above comments are very interesting. I had not wanted to bring the subject up as I felt that I had not gathered enough information. Although Italians I know, have given through their banks, mistrust is prevalent. There is much more pride when we are being told about the firemen from Perugia going to help, how organised they are and how they are working ceaselessly.

Here in Abruzzo the response was swift and there were queues to donate blood within the first 12 hours.

The powers that be moved very fast too. Aircraft were commandeered to transport the wounded, hotels were ordered to open, retired firemen were called in to relieve the rescuers etc. So the initial response was very good and well coordinated.

The supermarkets have their collections and people are giving small amounts but on a regular basis.

People here are cash poor but very generous with the little they have.

I also know that they don’t like to talk about what they have given, it is seen as a private thing and not discussed.

There is a suspicion of organisations ‘creaming off’ donations but if you actually look into a lot of the top charities in the UK you will be surprised at how little of your money makes it to the needy after the charity has taken for fundraising, admin, staff costs etc. It is always worth having a look at the Annual Reports of charities to see just how much of your donated money is spent running the charity.

I found this article several days ago online but thought better to wait for a better time to post it Makes very interesting reading. - - [url=http://www.justresponse.net/pacitti_earthquakes.html]Italian earthquakes of corruption: interview with Domenico Pacitti[/url]

Very sad, indeed. It will be neither the first nor the last time that victims of similar disasters all over the world do not get the help that they should because of corruption, avarice and similar reasons. I guess that to fully control each situation is something very difficult to do and there is a lot of cover up. Nevertheless, we must keep on trying to help through the most reliable channels. And keep our fingers crossed...

An interesting report - but I'm not so sure it is exactly as Paccitti states;-

[quote]JUST Response: That certainly seems to bear out what you are saying.

Pacitti: Bear in mind that we are talking about a so-called modern western democracy with the world's eighth largest economy in terms of gross domestic product. But there have been even worse cases. The worst case in every sense was the[B] Irpinia earthquake in Campania in November 1980[/B]. It is reported to have killed 2,735, injured 8,850 and left 45,050 homeless out of a population of 66,000. An Italian newspaper investigation at the time, directed incidentally by Indro Montanelli, revealed that the equivalent of 26 thousand million euros – almost three quarters of the entire funding for reconstruction – ended up in the hands of politically backed local Mafia. To date 382 people have been arrested on the usual Mafia and corruption charges. Over a hundred are politicians and local administrators, about 90 are Camorra clan bosses and members, and about 80 are company directors. During the ten years between 1984 and 1994, just over 900 town council administrators received criminal charges. This incredible sum of money, which could have transformed the entire region into a sort of terrestrial paradise, simply disappeared without trace. And it’s worth adding that major Christian Democrat politicians figured prominently among those who guided corruption.[/quote]

I know the area he speaks of here - and it has been rebuilt - to high standards. Lots of the houses are top quality. I am not saying the corruption doesn't exist, because it certainly does - but his report is somewhat misleading, because the area has been rebuilt "into a sort of terrestrial paradise" - with one BIG exception - these once thriving communities are nothing more than ghost towns now.

Part of the reason is that the money, after being shall we say, "diluted" took so long to come through - this meant the people had to find other ways, they had to move, to find work, to rebuild their shattered lives elsewhere - and they never came back - which was for many reasons - including fear.

This is also why places such Gesualdo, Conza and the three Lombardia towns of the area have some of the lowest property prices - certainly in Campania and possibly in all of Italy. They are all beautiful places - quite spectacular - but have never, ever recovered - and lets not forget, although this was an earthquake of larger proportions to the earthquake in Abruzzo - this one was almost THIRTY YEARS ago and the area still suffers from the effects.

Don't allow the long lasting effects to be the same in Abruzzo as they are in Campania. There are things that can and must be done to ensure it does not happen again.

Here is a link to a heart breaking video. Watch it and compare then with now and I'm sure you will see where the current road is heading if something is not done and history is allowed to repeat itself.

[B][url=http://www.carlogesualdo.altervista.org/pagine/tv3.php]tv3[/url][/B]

So, should we not bother to give in case our donation is not used wisely?

Surely it is better to donate and then make sure that all persons charged with the reconstruction effort are held to account. It would seem that there are plenty of legal investigations going on and many people who’s corrupt practices have been revealed.

It is a great pity if such stories of corruption are used as an excuse not to give in the first place but I’m sure they are.

I don't think anyone - and certainly not me - is suggesting we don't give or use stories of corruption as an excuse not to. What I do hope will happen is that the "powers that be" will realise "the people" are on to them this time and wont allow it to happen - wont let them skim off the cream or stand by quietly and as they smirk like the cat who got it.

Put the fear of God into these parasites and chuck them in the clink if they even think about lining their pockets with silk made from other peoples misery is what I say.

No exceptions. :nah:

Hear Hear Nielo
The corruption that we know has always existed and which continues to thrive is the perfect excuse for those who have given nothing and closer to home for those members of the forum who have been noticable by their absence during the past two weeks. Extraordinary behaviour.
I can only echo Gala's post that we must continue to try helping through the red cross or by whatever means is practical for ourselves.

I read too in The Glaswegian , a freebie newspaper in Glagow that in fact there has been a tremendous response by the large Italian community there.

Also I've a friend going to Italy, who is able to take a lot of baby clothes and soft toys so I wrote to several organisations with Italian connections including The Italian Church in London, St Peters.

I have just had a reply from St Peters.

From: St Peter's Italian Church
To: Sally Donaldson
Sent: Monday, 20 April, 2009 14:11:34
Subject: Re: The Earthquake In Abruzzo

Hello Sally,
We are launching an appeal ourselves here in the church on Sunday 3rd May but I can ask around if anyone has any clothes or soft toys if you wish.
Let me know
Best wishes Bruna

We will not be able to stop corruption. It is a form of evil, but, if it did not exist, we would all be in Paradise. It is the dark side of human nature and I am sure that it may happen in Abruzzo as anywhere else. We can only get some assurance that funds are going to be properly used by either giving them directly to the needy - and this will require an enormous logistical power, so it would not be a practical solution - or by giving them to a recognised and active fund which is directly involved in helping the disaster area. Helping through these organisations we also know that, should not all monies directed to this particular disaster be used - and this is highly unlikely due to the size of the tragedy - they will be redirected to any other emergency where help will also be needed. Consequently, we are neither wasting time, nor money.

[quote=Moxie;117480]Hear Hear Nielo
The corruption that we know has always existed and which continues to thrive is the perfect excuse for those who have given nothing and closer to home for those members of the forum who have been noticable by their absence during the past two weeks. Extraordinary behaviour.
I can only echo Gala's post that we must continue to try helping through the red cross or by whatever means is practical for ourselves.[/quote]

Mox, of course there are one or two who are noticeable by their absence and I agree, it is not a justifiable excuse not to give - so perhaps it's just a bit of false pride and a determination to do things in their own way. Good luck to them - whichever way funds are raised - because one way or the other, it is eventually all directed into the same pot anyway - and that benefits the people of Abruzzo.

We must also remember that some forum members may have chosen to donate to the fund anonymously (and generously), some have also donated under their real names rather than the screen names we usually know them by and some have genuinely not been online since the disaster - so wont know about the fund yet.

Back to the corruption side - you, Nielo and Gala are so right - it is all around us. Sometimes closer to home than we dare imagine.

I quite agree JC our concern should not stop once we have made a donation, we can all be vigilant, in whatever way we can, to ensure that the money is used for the benefit of those who need it and does not disappear into the wrong pockets.

This kind of corruption is evil as Gala says because it robs from the people most in need and because it does provide an excuse not to give.

I know that you never suggested such a thing but believe me there are people who will use it as an excuse.

Thanks for all your replies:
I was just trying to find out if there is a cultural difference in Charity giving - I know that we Brits are very good at raising money for charity by shaking tins and doing all sorts of things to help raise money for good causes and tragedies- Even M&S had tins at the cashdesk for victims of the Tsunami.

But I saw nothing like this in Tuscany (well the bits I was in)

So to summarise the opinions are that in Italy:

a) There is already a charity tax
b) Some people are reluctant to give because of the history of corruption
c) Some give quietly and anonymously
d) People local to the tragedy are doing amazing things to help.

My own preference for giving help is to donate some money and actual useful "stuff" for the survivors - like blankets/clothes etc - so I will contact Mario Conti - the archbishop of Glasgow (who has links to Barga) to see if there is anything set up

This is the link to the story that Sally was talking about..

[url=http://www.theglaswegian.co.uk/glasgow-news/news/2009/04/16/generous-glasgow-digs-deep-for-italian-earthquake-appeal-102692-21282334/]Generous Glasgow digs deep for Italian earthquake appeal - the Glaswegian[/url]

[quote] Yes I was surprised at the anger the discussion generated - after all, I know these people as a generous people. But who can blame them for their lack of trust when confronted with such behaviour and habits? They just don't seem to realise that if enough of them all over Italy said, and voted, to say 'ENOUGH' - then things might slowly begin to change for the better. [/quote][quote] [SIZE=3]Surely it is better to donate and then make sure that all persons charged with the reconstruction effort are held to account. It would seem that there are plenty of legal investigations going on and many people whose corrupt practices have been revealed.[/SIZE][/quote][quote]Put the fear of God into these parasites and chuck them in the clink if they even think about lining their pockets with silk made from other peoples misery is what I say.
No exceptions.
[/quote] [SIZE=3][quote]We can only get some assurance that funds are going to be properly used by either giving them directly to the needy - and this will require an enormous logistical power, so it would not be a practical solution - or by giving them to a recognised and active fund which is directly involved in helping the disaster area. Helping through these organisations we also know that, should not all monies directed to this particular disaster be used - and this is highly unlikely due to the size of the tragedy - they will be redirected to any other emergency where help will also be needed. Consequently, we are neither wasting time, nor money.[/quote][/SIZE]

Four quotes from this thread, all full of heartbreak at our seeming inability to [I]'do anything about it'.[/I].. and of course that, to some extent is true.

But the last quote touches on yet another thing - that seems to me to be wrong too. The fact that some large, [U][I]well known[/I][/U] charities make it quite clear that just because you give for a specific fund 'they' will decide where your money will go. There has been a fund link posted on IM now for a number of days - probably with good intentions, but the minimum donation [U]that[/U] fund will accept is £25 - yeah - like everyone has got £25 to give (I wish)! But reading down their explanation about the use and direction of donations they said, [I]quite unequivocally[/I], that the final decision on where any donations go to 'rests with them'.

And yet the British Red Cross gave us their word that [U][I]our[/I][/U] donations - minimum £2 would go to the Abruzzo Earthquake fund. Well I know where my few pounds went, and will continue to go.... thank you very much!

But let's look at a very strong point made here about the willingness that Italians have to 'give'. What they [I]will[/I] give, almost to the point of utter exhaustion, is their time, goods, money and anything that they can actually see [I][B]being used where it is needed! [/B][/I]

So who can blame the average Italian for being diffident? Not me... but I could, and do, wish that they would start to realise that they [U]DO[/U] have it in their power to start putting a stop to the corruption that continues to cost so many innocent lives!

[SIZE=2]OK - I'll get off [/SIZE][IMG]http://www.dallascowboyfansunited.com/forums/images/smilies/soapbox.gif[/IMG] [SIZE=2]- It's just that I get [U]so[/U] frustrated...
[/SIZE]

The more I get involved in this thread - the angrier I am becoming at the thought of what has happened and may very well happen again.

Where do we draw the line? Do we allow small and perhaps insignificant manipulations to be brushed aside in view of the "greater good" even if it means some are conned? Do we only go for the 'big guys' or should we expose all and sundry for even the slightest thing which may have effects on the overall situation? What is classed as manipulation and what is classed as outright corruption? What about threats from those who are manipulative towards those who detest their behaviour - how should that be handled?

I suppose in a roundabout way, this is related to something that has been playing heavily with my conscience for a few days, but it has made me seriously wonder where my own boundaries lie - is it best to expose the truth and cause a riot - or shut my gob and feel like an intimidated coward so that others can remain shielded and unaware of the sour truth?

I really don't know. :no:

I am editing this post to explain that because my thoughts took a long time to type clearly, others have since posted - which throws my post out of sync from where I intended it to be. Not that it matters, because my thoughts were and still are valid. I just wanted to explain why this post may seem "random" now. :smile:

This is interesting in the light of the ponts made here by many of you!

[B][URL="http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-04-20_120357749.html"]ANSA.it - News in English - Quake: Team to keep Mafia set up[/URL][/B]

Carole, I am only saying that monies given to recognised and active organisations will never be wasted, even if there was any money left and not needed in Abruzzo - something that is very unlikely given the magnitude of the disaster - organisations such as the Red Cross, whether the British or the Italian one will use it to help the victims. I guess that the British Red Cross will give the proceeds of any fundraising related to the earthquake to the Italian Red Cross as they are the ones who are actually on site. They are all branches of the same organisation. This is what is done traditionally and I do not mind it at all. Today it is Abruzzo, tomorrow it may be another Italian area - may God forbid - but the money will help people in need and this is what charity is all about.

[quote=Carole B;117491]This is interesting in the light of the ponts made here by many of you![/quote]

Is this a bridge too far:laughs::laughs::laughs:?

[COLOR="red"] Anti Mafia Investigators
This is interesting in the light of the ponts made here by many of you!

ANSA.it - News in English - Quake: Team to keep Mafia set up
__________________
[url=http://www.justgiving.com/italy-abruzzo-earthquake]Justgiving - ITALY Magazine Abruzzo Earthquake Appeal[/url][/COLOR]

Four days earlier - [url=http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-04-16_116371449.html]ANSA.it - News in English - Quake: Mafia 'will be kept out'[/url]

and possible murder charges

[url=http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2009-04-17_117352178.html]ANSA.it - News in English - Quake: Murder charges possible[/url]

Well the government has set up a big fraud squad operation to ensure that none of the reconstruction funding gets into the hands of 'the mafia' - (I am deafened by the hollow laughter) - but at least it is a start, and a public acknowledgement that this stuff needs to be stopped.

I have just been having a heated conversation with someone who believes Berlusconi is part of the Mafia ..... I find that a little bit of a sweeping statement .... Members care to comment???

Firstly - apologies for having posted about the 'anti-mafia' commission - because Carole and Sally had already linked to this story, but I had missed those posts.
Anyway - is Berlusconi 'a mafioso' - a reasonable question. (Which is why I always put 'mafia' in quotes: it is a term so loosely used to describe any corrupt politician/entrepreneur out to buy a job with a backhander, anybody taking the backhander, anybody pushing for their own interests, in fact for anybody whose politics or business methods do not meet with your approval.) So 'mafia' is a bit of a non-word for me, unless used precisely.
Berlusconi has, in his background, a considerable history as a property developer. It is irrelevant whether all his past building permissions were granted entirely transparently..(or indeed if permissions were even sought.)
However, at the moment for the bits of l'Abruzzo damaged by the quake, he is spouting on with grandiose schemes for new towns (alla inglese addirattura - il Milton Keynes sul Vomero - Dio Mio!), even built on Japanese style anti earthquake foundations, and this sort of 'on the hoof' urban planning legislation is raising a lot of eyebrows internationally - mine very much included. So I can well believe that established urban planners are calling him 'mafioso' - otherwise why would he be promoting such a long-discarded idea?
Actually, I believe he is not a bad bloke (boo hiss, I hear), but he is rather partial to the knee jerk reaction. He is so old, and so rich, that it is easy for him to un-react when he is convinced it is the right poltical move.
So no, on the whole, I think it is unreasonable to brand him 'mafia'

"moved to italiauncovered.co.uk"

I was informed that a group from Lucca and surrounding areas, including some volunteers from Bagni di Lucca have opened a camp kitchen in L'Aquila and that they are feeding 500 people a day. The Italian Red Cross is very active in the area and they have been receiving help and donations as well as Caritas. And this is also a motive of pride for the locals.

We will be in Italy next week and I was assuming that our local branch of Banca delle Marche would have a facility for giving. On reading through this thread, I am now not so sure. As has been suggested, I would prefer to give to a reputable organisation like the Red Cross. Will there be such an option available?
Annie.

Annie, we have already set up a fund here on the forum and have raised the magnificent sum of almost EIGHT THOUSAND POUNDS so far. All monies are going directly to the Abruzzo earthquake appeal branch of the Red Cross. :yes:

Click the link. :smile:

[B][url=http://www.justgiving.com/italy-abruzzo-earthquake]Justgiving - ITALY Magazine Abruzzo Earthquake Appeal[/url][/B]