12239 enough for me guys

Going to take a break, this is not a good place to be for me to be at present. Friends can contact me by email.
A

Category

Circolo di Conversazione

What?????? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!:eeeek:

:no::no::no:

I think that it is becoming a contagious disease. I am sorry to see this happening.

A
I was just saying the same yesterday - if it wasn't for the fund-raising keeping me going! x

Hi A

I'm really sorry, will you reconsider?

Do you remember my post, about a mediator being needed, well that need is certainly overdue now. Is there are moderator out there who could help.

Best wishes

Stick in there guys - this is another one of those 'interesting times' that 'blows up' but also will 'blow away' as people calm down

If all else fails - hit the snooze button for a short while

Am I mad?

What am I missing? I come here each day, and read all the new posts.

The forums don't seem that bad just now, apart from the occasional Hissy fit.

Or is it all in background PMs and emails?

Neil

Hi Neil T

Same for me, some of the usual stuff but I haven't a clue what is really going on. I clearly do not pay enough attention to the deeper parts of the forum.

Seems I'm a surface swimmer :smile:

Might be better if we got more response from admin. to our many pms and any ensuing frustration was nipped in the bud.

But, I think whatever is going on is very long standing and like you suggest is probably going on behind the scenes.

Again, would a mediator please step up to the line:yes:

[quote=Aretina;118003]Hi Neil T
Same for me, some of the usual stuff but I haven't a clue what is really going on. I clearly do not pay enough attention to the deeper parts of the forum.

Seems I'm a surface swimmer :smile:

Might be better if we got more response from admin. to our many pms and any ensuing frustration was nipped in the bud.

But, I think whatever is going on is very long standing and like you suggest is probably going on behind the scenes.

Again, would a mediator please step up to the line:yes:[/quote]

[quote]Posted by Neil T:
The forums don't seem that bad just now, apart from the occasional Hissy fit.

Or is it all in background PMs and emails?

Neil [/quote]BINGO!

Thank goodness it's finally it's getting through. It took me a while too to realise that this ([I]background[/I] noise) was the crux of the problem once certain facilities had been removed from member's general use or 'mediation' was enforced. It took me a bit longer though to learn [U]not[/U] to look in one direction only for the cause of all the unrest.

I've tried mediating quietly in the background (and out in the open), and I'm positive that others have done the same. But I really I do hope there is someone else who can come in to try and sort it all out. But whoever does try must be willing to listen to both sides with an open mind and look at (and confront) those long standing problems.

Equally important is that both sides are open and honest about what went on. It really does need to be someone who is not [I]'perceived'[/I] to belong to one 'clique or another - that was the problem I had for a long time. But once it was clearly understood that was not the case I began to see 'both sides of the coin'.

I do sincerely hope there [B]is[/B] someone here who will be neutral, and brave enough to try and sort it all out.

But in the meantime I'll just offer two bits of advice (that I've learned the hard way), to other members:

1. Think '[U]outside[/U] the box'.
2. You really [U]can't[/U] tell a book by it's cover.

[quote=Aretina;118003]...I haven't a clue what is really going on.[/quote]
Me neither, but nor do I care enough to try to figure it out by intense study and readying between the lines of what's in public, or by using PMs to ask the folk who do seem to know what's going on at the moment.
[quote=Aretina;118003]Seems I'm a surface swimmer[/quote]
I guess I'm also just floating along.
[quote=Carole B;118006]...someone who is not [I]'perceived'[/I] to belong to one 'clique or another...[/quote]
I certainly don't care enough even to bother volunteering for the role of peace-maker (it's not a job I have the time for or something I'm suited for, in any case), but I'm pretty sure that some parties might consider me to belong to a particular clique, even though I don't recall ever signing to be a member of anyone's Secret Club.

It is the case that some members seem to be people I might like to meet in real life (Angie and Robert being a case in point). There are also those who strike me as being folk I'd probably find insufferably wishy-washy in real life and yet others are people I'd never knowingly share a lift with, just on the off-chance it might break down for a few minutes. That doesn't mean I [I]always[/I] agree with what A&R say or that I think that those in the other categories [I]never[/I] say anything sensible. However, I suspect that – in the minds of some – one is either completely for them or totally against them.

But, as I say, I really haven't a clue what's got some people's unmentionables in a tangle and why there are apparently titanic battles being fought, unseen and unheard by us ordinary mortals. Nor, in the final analysis, do I really care.

I see this as a forum that's useful for practical reasons. I've never considered myself a member of some sort of "community" here with school-yard pals and enemies. I don't have the need for a Minimum Daily Allowance of virtual social interaction and I do my best to ignore the sniping between members who apparently feel they gain some sort of benefit by squabbling with other members.

(Is there a "shrug" emoticon? I've used the "roll eyes" one so often that it's getting boring.)

A & R you should not leave, your contributions to the forum have been positive with information and help. Ignore the cliques that are developing again and continue to give helpful advice and pertinent points as you have always done in previous postings.
Overall ....... don't let the pathetics win, as then they will do it to everyone, just to create their own little world.

thanked the above post by geotherm and then removed it... thats how careful you have to be i guess... but his words make sense so have put it back in again...perceived or not i am of no clique... in fact cannot even spell... or punctuate and have seen no other that can write the illiterate way i do.. i seemed to get thanked from whatever side ...although have never really abused the PM system to set out my stall... in fact even the thanks create a problem because sally always thanks me .. not because we pm each other but i hopefully post in general something that is useful to hear...

i am not without sin... gala...(sorry thats another thread but i dont have the time to write ieverywhere) who is...however many sides to all things and whoever suggested mediation and kiss and make up lives in another world from mine... am not saying i am right... either... but its not in my nature to forgive... unless of course its family...

Adriatica.
I didn't know we had to be so careful about what we do on the forum. Perhaps the mindless wonders who need to PM very worthwhile contributors of long standing membership, need to get their act together and get their head out of the sand of being petty minded, as is obviously the case. If they cannot contribute in a positive manner, then they are not needed and not welcome.
I look at the number of positive contributors who say they are thinking of leaving and feel it is so sad, that they, who have given so much feel that their efforts are not even worth it.
PM's could be the route of all evils at the moment as they can do so much damage, to what has been at many times a very good forum.

[quote=Sally Donaldson;118031]Blaming the pm facility??? What nonsense. Sorry Geotherm but I disagree with you on this..[/quote]
Sorry Sally......... not nonsense.... not if someone attacks another member of the forum, in whatever way and makes them decide to leave. PM relevant comments, but not attack others, with what ever comment you disagree with. What is a forum, if not to discuss matters in the open ........

Well I do agree Geotherm and its why I've never responded to your pms Sally. I make it a rule not to discuss the forum and its members by pm - which is why I hardly ever use it and then mostly to arrange to meet up for a drink.

I agree with you on what you have just said obviously, but to say that the cause is the PMs, I still feel that isn't so.

Then Anne you could perhaps have the decency to acknowledge them and even put me right???

I think I have only sent you a couple over the last year and certainly not recently.

There is no moderation on PM's. So if a forum member wanted to copy and post what had been said to them, then they could do quite easily. Then the mods would probably delete it at the request of the originator, as they would not wish to be seen how nasty or aggressive that they could be. How many people would see that posting before it got deleted?

[quote=adriatica;118022].....

To forgive is not difficult, the main problem is to forget and we are not saints to be without sin. Sometimes we would be better off if memories could easily fade.

Sorry - what were we talking about???

Maybe I'll PM you.:winki:

[FONT=Arial]To stop unsolicited abusive PM’s is actually not difficult. On another forum I saw this behaviour halted in its tracks when the recipient posted the PM in the forum. The abuser was totally wrong footed because the venom of the PM was at odds with their forum persona. They blustered about privacy etc etc but eventually left the forum because everyone got to see their actual behind the scenes actions.[/FONT]

Can I point out that we use the PM system to organise and co ordinate fundraising activities...
Also, I positively enjoy getting funny and friendly PM's from my friends on here - often they make my day.
Like anything anywhere you will get the odd one or two people who will abuse the system, this doesn't mean that the system is bad - just that the baddies are bad.

So many questions, so many people and so much confusion. Some say they don't care about "the situation" and yet - they care enough to post and say something about "the situation". Some don't even know what the situation is. Others will be thinking about different situations than the one you or I are currently thinking of. There are probably many who do not even know a situation exists.

How can anyone hope to solve any situation when no one is prepared to stick their neck out and say what the situation is?

If we can all agree on which exact situation we are talking about - then at least we will all be starting on the same page - until it goes off topic and we start fighting again - and create another situation. :bigergrin:

First of all, the situation needs to be clearly defined.

I'll go first with some thoughts.

Are we talking about the situation raised in Aretinas very recent thread were there was a bit of anger and disappointment shown towards Admin for not responding to many requests made and delays in starting certain activities to do with the forum fund. Somehow I doubt it, as Ronni has now replied and everyone seems to have settled down quite nicely about that situation.

So is it the situation between Sally Donaldson and JC? That seems highly likely, but how on earth could it be sorted out if only one side were willing to state her case and deal with the situation?

Or is this situation something to do with with what "goes on in the background" with the abuse of the PM system? Ooooo - I do hope so, because there are a few things I can say about that situation - which may even sort out the above situation to a good degree.

Perhaps the situation is that Gala was upset yesterday? Thankfully she seems to be feeling better today, so perhaps this current situation isn't about that situation.

Maybe it is about the situation where Angie has said she is "taking a break" for a while? Angie will be back - she's been hard at it - doing wonderful stuff to help people affected by the earthquake.

Or perhaps it is the situation I have created in another thread within the Circolo called "What the f...?" If it is, then I'm even willing to discuss that openly - even if it means I get banned. I suppose I could come back yet again - how does the name Phoenix grab you?

Or is there a chance that the situation is nothing to do with me in any way whatsoever? Now that really would be nice - but how likely is that - going on past history?

So, lets clarify - does the situation exist on the above list, if so, which one is it exactly and who is involved in it?

If there is another situation that is not one listed above - you need state what the situation is - or stop moaning about it because no one seems to know for certain which situation anyone else is really talking about.

Whatever the situation is - it needs to be made clear what it is, names need to be named and someone needs to tell it like it is for once - and perhaps then we can all stop going round in bloody circles.

I'm willing to do it - are you? :wideeyed:

'The art of the future will be the overthrow of situations or nothing’
Guy Debord, Situationist,1952

I thought to myself - if anyone has the balls to post and say it straight - then it is Annec. A brave attempt Anne, but it kinda proves the point - whatever it is.

JC - your previous ramble made no sense :bigergrin: and now you've just lost the plot completely:smile:

I am just following everyone else on forum etiquette from now on Anne. No one wants to be clear about anything on this forum - no one wants to step up to the plate and take responsibility because they are either (according to Pigro) scared, tired, or indifferent.

I didn't have you down as being scared, tired or indifferent - so what is your excuse for not grabbing the bull by the horns? :bigergrin:

Anyway - talking of pointless displacement activity - this should keep us amused
[url=http://www.baynhamtyers.com/contraption2.html]Baynham & Tyers || The Contraption II[/url]

[quote=juliancoll;118138]

I didn't have you down as being scared, tired or indifferent - so what is your excuse for not grabbing the bull by the horns? :bigergrin:[/quote]

Far as I'm concerned, there's no horns here, but plenty of bull

And people wonder why there are "situations" on this forum? Now should I react or just let you get away with it this time Anne?

Oh of course I will stay pleasant - and allow you to show to others how, by your comment above, that you are an integral part of the "situation" just as much as anyone else.

That was too easy. Next?

[quote=Moxie;118066]Can I point out that we use the PM system to organise and co ordinate fundraising activities...
Also, I positively enjoy getting funny and friendly PM's from my friends on here - often they make my day.
Like anything anywhere you will get the odd one or two people who will abuse the system, this doesn't mean that the system is bad - just that the baddies are bad.[/quote]
Is it possible to set up private messages where unwanted messages are simply ignored? This could reduce problems.

[quote=Campfield;118151]Is it possible to set up private messages where unwanted messages are simply ignored? This could reduce problems.[/quote]

Of course Campfield- it's called 'personal choice'. I use it on unwanted e-mails too now, though that problem has now reduced considerably for me of late, but from what I've read here it looks like it is still a problem for many!

I also use Skype and even there I get unsolicited 'attempted' calls from goodness knows who - I just block them. I suppose all of this is endemic to the communication forms we use in our lives today. They're there so people will use them, but the choice is ultimately ours!

A seemingly sensible solution Campfield - except that isn't how it works in every situation.

If I were to write an unwanted/abusive/threatening/libelous/calumnious/derogatory/misleading or malicious private message TO you - you could easily block any further incoming messages FROM me to your PM box and that would certainly stop that particular situation happening again. You could also report any such message to the Admin here.

But how would you stop the situation if I were to write an unwanted/abusive/threatening/libelous/calumnious/derogatory/misleading or malicious PM to another person about YOU?

You have no control over my PM's, you have no knowledge of who I write to or what I say within my PMs. I could easily PM another member and write anything about you - and you would not even be aware I was doing it - unless the person who received such a PM either forwarded it to you, or forwarded it to someone else who then forwarded it on to you.

Does this situation happen on this forum? Yes, it does - frequently - and it is one of the biggest reasons why there is so much friction here. Can I prove it? Yes, I can.

Can you stop that situation from reoccurring?

No - you cant, unless you take away the PM facility altogether - and that would be very unfair to the the vast majority of members who use their PM facilty for the correct purpose.

Next?

I'd never know if it was sent to a third party, so I wouldn't give a hoot.

One of the points that we remain unclear on is this:

Why is it against forum rules to say this person/situation has hurt me?:veryconfused:

If each injured party stated clearly their viewpoint without rudeness or abuse ... I am sure this could all be resolved without bloodshed and without the need for the moderators to intervene.

Moxie (and him) unscared wide awake and 'different':bigergrin:

[quote=Campfield;118162]I'd never know if it was sent to a third party, so I wouldn't give a hoot.[/quote]

Nor would I - but if you had read the post carefully you would understand that you not knowing about such a situation wasn't the point I was making, was it? :no:

So, would you give a hoot if you became aware of such a situation? What would you do and how would you feel if you found out that I was doing such a thing to and about you?

I'd suggest the person who originally received the PM (and was now telling me about it) ignore PMs from that user in future. If everyone ignored them, they'd have no effect on anyone. Carole B put it well- it's like refusing to open spam. Deleting spam is a bit of a nuisance, but afterwards can't harm us.

[quote=Moxie;118164]One of the points that we remain unclear on is this:

Why is it against forum rules to say this person/situation has hurt me?:veryconfused:

If each injured party stated clearly their viewpoint without rudeness or abuse ... I am sure this could all be resolved without bloodshed and without the need for the moderators to intervene.

Moxie (and him) unscared wide awake and 'different':bigergrin:[/quote]

I'll tell you why Mox (and him) - because in all the time I have been on this forum with all the many "aliases" I have had, there has never been a time when the "other party" has responded when invited to do so. Look now, lots of people are reading this thread, but who is actually prepared to air the problems? It certainly is not any of the people who complain about these situations - at least not so far.

Another reason is partly that Admin do not want these type of situations to appear on the forum as they view it as being detrimental (which I understand completely) so in order not to break the rules, we must tread very carefully along an invisible line or risk outrage and a smacked bum. That's why for example, I am not allowed to say openly that I am annoyed/hurt/angry/upset/frustrated with Sally Donaldson for her continued long term abuse of the PM system when she sends misleading and malicious PMs to others about me. If I were to say that, I would risk being banned and accused of stirring up trouble - so I wont say it.

Even if I was allowed to say to Sally Donaldson openly that she pisses me off beyond all rational thought and gave my reasons why I felt that way - without abuse or rudeness - there would be no point, simply because Sally would not respond - even though she would read the post and later post something unrelated to what I have said. The only thing Sally Donaldson would do would be to report such a post and send shedloads of PMs to people to tell them that I must be banned or at the very least, placed on permanent moderation.

I suppose if I were to find out she had done this over and over again a thousand times or more, I may feel even more upset and angry towards her and perhaps I might retaliate by having a good few digs at her from time to time.

But I'm not allowed to say any of that - so I wont.

All this lack of openness does is put a lid on things for a while - while the pot still boils and bubbles underneath.

Hi Guys

Just popped in from 'working' and caught this.

When I receive an [SIZE="3"][I]unsolicited[/I][/SIZE] PM from a person who I know is trying to stir things up, I use the advice given by Carole and DELETE IT!!

[quote=Campfield;118173]I'd suggest the person who originally received the PM (and was now telling me about it) ignore PMs from that user in future. If everyone ignored them, they'd have no effect on anyone. Carole B put it well- it's like refusing to open spam. Deleting spam is a bit of a nuisance, but afterwards can't harm us.[/quote]

I agree with you entirely Campfield - and many will and have done exactly as you have sensibly suggested by ignoring any further PM's from the person, but the damage would have already been done - and there is always new members that the person can and will use to start the ball rolling over and over again.

Perhaps if you go back and read the posts in this thread, you will see that what I am saying is true. There are people who have posted in this thread that say they have received this type of PM that suggests the sender was hoping to discuss another member with them and that they were not happy about receiving it.

It goes on, it is rampant and it is never ending - and, as far as I know, always stems from the same source.

Let's persuade those on the thread who received those bad PMs to ignore them from now on. If I read something that makes me unhappy, I try to avoid repeating the experience.

New users are more vulnerable- maybe some kind of warning in the Terms of Service? Or a statement in the welcome-to- the-board PM.

[quote=Aretina;118175]Hi Guys

Just popped in from 'working' and caught this.

When I receive a PM from a person who I know is trying to stir things up, I use the advice given by Carole and DELETE IT!![/quote]

Very good advice Aretina, but allow me to ask you this - when you receive a PM from a person who you "know is trying to stir things up" (and I am assuming you have because you used the word "when" rather than "if") - do you read it before deleting it?

If you don't, how do you know the person was trying to stir things up? If you do, how does it affect you when you read the contents?

Of course, there is no obligation to answer me, but it would be interesting to know what your initial reaction to such PMs is (apart from deleting them).

See my edit, sorry but I didn't make myself clear earlier. While gardening, getting ready for guests, I realised that an adjective was needed. Take a look!

Yes, on a couple of occasions I have opened them, realised the contents then deleted immediately. How do I feel ? Sad, that some lives can be so petty, sad that they forget the bigger picture and sad that they forget that real people are receiving their messages via a medium which does not allow true emotional expression. It feels a bit like being hit by a punch thrown by someone you cannot see.

Sad that maybe forum lives are the only ones these people have. And, yes annoyed too, when I have been targeted. You also get to know that PM's from some people are usually negative.

However, I welcome and appreciate all the other pm's I get that are warm, helpful, encouraging and positive. Thank You!

A Forum health warning, Campfield, I hope it is not needed. We have not always given a very good account of ourselves, but maybe this is just a reflection of life! Maybe the stress of global crisises, recession, stress etc. is bubbling into the forum.

I'm locking this thread now for two reasons; it has gone way off-topic and things are being said that would be better said in PM's.

Let us be straight about this; the Personal Message system exists for one reason only; to allow members to communicate with each other without revealing their real-life identities. The PM system is not moderated or, as far as I know, checked by Ronald and the Italy Magazine staff. Of course, that means that the system is open to abuse, but members who choose to engage with each other through this method must take personal responsibility for things that they read and write and exercise judgement about the character of people who they receive messages from, as they would with Email.

May I ask members not to allow disputes which start on the PM system to bleed-through to the Forums. The Moderating team can only evaluate each thread and post at face-value and has neither the time or the capacity to follow the history of relationships which have evolved through PM's. Therefore, if you abuse another member (or offer patronising advice) on the public Forums we will delete you post, no matter what the background to it is.

Finally an immense 'thank-you' to the members who have posted affirmative and helpful posts. Your work is far more constructive than that of the Mods and we appreciate it.