In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Thanks Charles.
I've seen a figure of 400 Euro per square metre to get a ruin to "al grezzo" - does that sound a reasonable figure to budget for?
Roger
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Well, there is grezzo and grezzo, and of course the price varies depending on the aesthetic quality of the building. (Everything which follows assumes you are looking at a complete new-build)
€400 per sq m would get you the foundations, walls, floor and roof structures, and that's about it. If you wanted roof tiles and a bit of internal rough plastering and floor screeds I'd be happier to consider €500 as a bare minimum. You wouldn't get any windows or doors within this €500 (IMO).
This is purely a building cost, it wouldn't encompass things like septic tank, water and service provision, access road etc etc., and it wouldn't include demolishng the existing building.
So - to get to the stage which in English we might call a 'shell' - a building on a serviced site, awaiting the plumber, electrician, plasterer, pavmentista and internal joinery, it would be optimistic to think about anything lower than €650; to leave yourself a margin, it would be safer to think about €750 which would allow you to have (for example) the odd arched opening, and some nice facing materials.
Hope this helps - remember I'm not the estate agent, so I don't need to be optimistic! Maybe lotan will come in on this thread - he might tell you that I'm frightening you with my suggested price - but it is better to have a nice surprise than to find you haven't got the money to finish the job.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Just an idea... instead of bringing part of the building to "al grezzo", why don't you leave that area as a ruin. Just tidy it up, make sure that it will not collapse, basically, don't try to hide them, but convert the ruins into a feature of the house. I do not know whether that would be possible in your case, but it has been done before and it is very effective. You may need an architect to give you some guidance, but I think it would be worth paying a professional fee. Eventually, you could tackle the rebuilding of sections of the ruin as money becomes available.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
the figures above are pretty well what fixed costs are... and no amount of promises of it being cheaper will ever come to fruition... then you have to add in the professional fees and the planning side... so maybe look for another 10 % or so on top of the quoted estimate... and then add in whatever level of VAT you are paying... there are ways of paying less ...but that's 20 % on both fees and build costs... thats the max rate..
charles suggest a very Italian way of doing things... and getting the main structural work complete and one floor habitable...generally the 1st floor is an often seen method here...
if you maybe don't need so much land i always reckon the uglier so called habitable house are better value... underneath they are the same ...once again in general as your ruin...stone...often covered in grey loose plaster... ok you need to renew electrics and plumbing... but with any luck no major structural work... many of these types of house had new roofs put in under grants to farmers back in the eighties...i think... so will be safe in that sense... work on these types of places come in at a much lower cost...and can often be done over time..ie say replacing the sort of gold aluminium type double glazing... with more in keeping windows and shutters... plaster removed and stonework revealed... .. anyway just a thought...there is an sort of over valuation of these sorts of fallen down stone buildings brought on by foreign buyers looking for character... when often there are perfectly sound structurally sound properties with their character hidden under modern work that to my mind have not got the value added premium... maybe if you can ignore the first impressions of some of these places and look deeper you migh well be able to get something within your budget.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
All very useful insights, thanks all. I like the "keeping part as a ruin" idea and that might work for the property we have in mind ...
All of a sudden I feel really excited about the whole project. We've spent a year looking for something in various parts of Italy and it's only now we've started looking Le Marche that we are finding properties (well, ruins) we can afford in nice locations with great potential. We've found multiple properties we could work with and it's sooooo helpful to have a community on the forum here to help with questions!
I agree an uglier habitable property may be better value long term, however they seem to be more over-priced as a rule and we simply may not have the budget to start with - the prospect of working with a ruin in a good position is quite appealing really.(I must be mad!)
Thanks again - I'm sure I'll be back with more questions in due course!
Roger
Roger
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Good luck Roger - you're embarking on an epic journey. And when you can't imagine why you started or whether it will ever end, remember there are plenty of us here who have been through it and lived to tell the tale! And are really glad we did it
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
[quote=adriatica;118105]..ie say replacing the sort of gold aluminium type double glazing... [/quote]
Double glazing? What luxury! My gold aluminium type windows are single-glazed.
If you buy a house with this type of window, replace them fast. Otherwise you get used to them, and eventually you may even decide that actually they're really quite pretty.
Trouble is, nobody else thinks so. And they let in draughts, rain and are very poorly insulated.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
We have fabulous double-glazed PVC windows that look and feel like real wood. They perfectly suit our old mill and they insulate the house saving lots of money in energy. They were installed by the previous owner, but we are very grateful for it.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Pretty much agree with everything that Charles has said, during our rebuild and subsequent projects I kept a spreadsheet of average costs per square metre of wall, floor, roof etc for Le Marche and Charles' figures are pretty much on the nail unless of course you do much of the work yourselves. Costs for both labour and materials had been on the increase by 15% between 2007 and 2008, thankfully labour costs are now more negotiable with less business around. In many cases you can buy a fully restored house now for less than the cost of a rebuild and with less agro.
The main thing to get right is your choice of geometra or architect, shop around get prices, get them to specify what is and is not included in their costs and agree a payment schedule where a third is paid after plannin, a third after structural works and a third after everything is signed off (agibilità). If they are charging a %age make sure they dont get this for the services, fittings and windows etc as you can choose these yourselves and it doesnt warrant a fee.
Good luck
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
Also, when choosing a professional, make sure that he/she understands what you really want to do and what you like and does not want to impose his/her own taste or likings. This is particularly important in the case of a restoration where you may want to preserve certain characteristics of the building. This does not mean that you cannot mix the old with the very modern or even minimalist style. Some of these combinations work very well.
Have a look at as many books and magazines on the subject of restoration of buildings that you can. There are some excellent specialised magazines published in Italy on the subject. One that comes immediately to my mind is "Il Rustico", but there are many others equally valuable.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
It's really important to know what the local planning regulations are. We have a ruin next door sitting on agricultural land, and if we get a demolition order for it, we can't then rebuild on the land it sits on unless we do it within a certain time frame. I think we can get round it if we keep the rubble on site (= attractive!) but it really pays to work with a geometra and the local comune to make sure you know what you can and can't do.
In reply to A newbie all over again! by Annec
This may be useful for anyone thinking about a restoration project. It is a thread regarding Italian magazines and publications:
[url]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/general-chat-about-italy/11390-italian-house-magazines-etc.html[/url]
They are very sensible ideas (except for the one when you don't put the floor structure in!)
You might have a problem with the planners, but only if you are in a zone which is aesthetically controlled (a bit like an AONB), if you make the rebuild much smaller than the exisiting. To know whether this is the case it would be a good idea to have a chat with a local geometra or architect.
Of course there is no reason to finish off all of the insides at one time, but it is very useful to have designed the long-in-the-future finished house before you start. It is possible that your adviser or your builder will try to persuade you to do it all in one go, so you must be prepared to be firm with them. Yes, it will probably cost something like 3% more to do the work in stages - but that's less than you would have to pay in interest charges, so stick with your sensible notions, and good luck!