12245 "fat tax"

Ryanair - News : One In Three Ryanair Passengers Vote for ‘Fat Tax’
I just looked at that link too and I find it shocking... Will this mean that Ryanair will feel free to, and are going to, discriminate against some disabled passengers? Not everyone who is overweight or obese is that way by choice. Some have little or no choice but to many their outward appearance attracts nothing but nasty, unkind and uncalled for comments. I know - I'm one, who if I was ever able to fly again would fall into the category of being a target for such obscene remarks - and they will come believe me (though I wouldn't need 'another seat', I would touch both seat arms, except in 1st Class) .

I wonder how Mr. O'Leary's advisors will deal with the DDA on travel?
[B][URL="http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/DisabledPeople/TravelHolidaysAndBreaks/GettingThere/DG_4017242"]Airport and airline services for disabled travellers : Directgov - Disabled people[/URL][/B]
I've found reading about his (O'Leary's) antics rather comical until now.... Now their tone has shifted direction completely.

Well I suppose the logic behind it is the extra weight per fuel ratio, but even so it is offensive and discriminatory.

Children weigh less than rugby prop forwards, anorexics weigh less than people with wheelchairs.

As always O’Leary thinks all publicity is good publicity but this will gradually accumulate in peoples minds and one day it just might backfire in his face.

P.S. I would not be affected personally but it is still offensive.

I read United Airlines in the US is charging obese passengers for 2 seats, or requiring upgrade to Business Class. This will be challenged in court- I don't know how the courts will rule.

Valid point indeed CaroleB - but on this thread I'm wondering specifically about the stated (and far more morally ambiguous) issue of outsize/obese rather than disabled travellers. I agree with the shift in tone though ... as I say, my own opinion is that this is just a ploy to keep the Rayanair brand in the public eye (no such thing as bad publicity) during the recession, but I do wonder how people who would actually be affected view the proposals.

[quote=Nielo;118056]Well I suppose the logic behind it is the extra weight per fuel ratio, but even so it is offensive and discriminatory.

Children weigh less than rugby prop forwards, anorexics weigh less than people with wheelchairs.

As always O’Leary thinks all publicity is good publicity but this will gradually accumulate in peoples minds and one day it just might backfire in his face.

P.S. I would not be affected personally but it is still offensive.[/quote]
I think other implementations have used the rationale of encroachment into the next persons "personal space" as opposed to the extra fuel cost (as the weight discrepencies amongst pasengers tends to average out to a fairly constant value per flight at R/A's high occupancy %)

[quote=pigro;118059]I think other implementations have used the rationale of encroachment into the next persons "personal space" as opposed to the extra fuel cost (as the weight discrepencies amongst pasengers tends to average out to a fairly constant value per flight at R/A's high occupancy %)[/quote]
It's a real concern- I'm skinny but often squished by my seatmates. Flying is unpleasant enough as is without added "pressure".

[quote][B][SIZE="4"]Ryanair - One In Three Ryanair Passengers Vote for ‘Fat Tax’[/SIZE][/B][/quote]

Lets not forget what the above quote actually means, which is

[CENTER]
[B][SIZE="6"][COLOR="red"]TWO out of THREE people

did [U]NOT[/U] vote

for this "Fat Tax"[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/CENTER]

And although one of the members claims it to have been his entry that has now won this competition, I do wonder now that this idea has "won" how many other entrants actually put forward exactly the same idea.

If there was more than one person putting forward the same idea - will the prize money be divided equally among all "winners" - and more importantly - will our Abruzzo earthquake forum fund still get a 500 quid donation? :wideeyed:

I reckon someone has been conned - and it serves them right! :laughs:

What is the point of Forming a RYANAIR GROUP as suggested by Forum members and then to post this thread on the main Forum? I thought the whole idea was that as O'Leary was always up to something and that there were so many complaints and so few compliments, we should give Ryanair it's own space. Suuggest this thread is moved there please.:no:

And here's the post.
22-02-09, 12:41 PM
Nielo

A new place to discuss Ryanair
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have started a mew group, which is open to all.

It is called RYANAIR

A place to discuss Ryanair – where the issues do not specifically involve flights to or from Italy.

I hope that people will use this new group and leave the forum for discussing issues related specifically to Italy.
__________________
Nielo

Look: I'm checking in for a flight. I weigh 48 kg. I have inadvertently bought too many books or jars of marmalade so when placed on the scales, my suitcase weighs 28 kg. I have to pay excess baggage charge.
Behind me in the queue I see a good percentage of people waiting to check-in who - without even packing a pencil in their bag - weigh easily 25%+ more than the 76 kg that constitutes me and my excess baggage combined.
This is not only clearly unfair, it is also blatant discrimination against lightweight people.
Airlines should revert to the system that used to be in place at Croydon Aerodrome in the days of Imperial Airways when passengers were weighed along with their luggage at check-in.
Why should people be treated any differently than, say, parcels? The heavier you are, the more it costs the airline to fly you wherever you're going, so the more you should have to pay.

[quote=Noble;118067]What is the point of Forming a RYANAIR GROUP as suggested by Forum members and then to post this thread on the main Forum? I thought the whole idea was that as O'Leary was always up to something and that there were so many complaints and so few compliments, we should give Ryanair it's own space. Suuggest this thread is moved there please.[/quote]
While R/A are involved, they are not alone (as per other posts in the thread) and it's therefore quite pertinent to holidays/travel in general. Anyway, I created the thread, and, last time I looked, I wasn't a part of the Ryanir group.

Of all the posts from all of the people I have read on this forum over all the years - nothing, but nothing has surprised me more than one of the posts from one of the people on this thread.

I'm stunned. :swoon:

[quote=Violetta;118068]Look: I'm checking in for a flight. I weigh 48 kg. I have inadvertently bought too many books or jars of marmalade so when placed on the scales, my suitcase weighs 28 kg. I have to pay excess baggage charge.
Behind me in the queue I see a good percentage of people waiting to check-in who - without even packing a pencil in their bag - weigh easily 25%+ more than the 76 kg that constitutes me and my excess baggage combined.
This is not only clearly unfair, it is also blatant discrimination against lightweight people.
Airlines should revert to the system that used to be in place at Croydon Aerodrome in the days of Imperial Airways when passengers were weighed along with their luggage at check-in.
Why should people be treated any differently than, say, parcels? The heavier you are, the more it costs the airline to fly you wherever you're going, so the more you should have to pay.[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with that as a way to make this method fair, and that way would be far less offensive than what is being mooted by a) Ryanair and b) the winner or winners.

It seems patently obvious that the accent here was on the terminology that was chosen. [U]That's[/U] what 'heavy', 'spastic', 'thin', 'disabled' etc. people find so offensive all the time - terminology! It's been confronted by law for the question of race and colour - so why not for other minorities too?

[U]If[/U] I could fly nowadays, I would have no objection whatsoever on being weighed 'with' my luggage, and pay whatever the set tariff was. But if I had to declare my weight openly for all to 'hiss, boo and laugh' then I wouldn't have to think twice - I just wouldn't fly.

The old saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me!" is a load of rubbish. They (names) DO hurt. Do you suppose Susan Boyle didn't hurt at the sneers and eye rolling the other night? Of course she hurt. But people still did it - and think, I'd give my right arm to be as slim, agile and fit as her.

I too think it's a case of cheap publicity. The amount he's got for a paltry £1K is incredible... and administratively, to carry this out, would be a nightmare and one even he wouldn't (IMHO) want to confront!

[quote=pigro;118071]While R/A are involved, they are not alone (as per other posts in the thread) and it's therefore quite pertinent to holidays/travel in general. Anyway, I created the thread, and, last time I looked, I wasn't a part of the Ryanir group.[/quote]

Pigro, the group is opem to all and you can join any time you like.

But you also have a perfect right not to join and post whereever you like.:smile:

Nielo, I know that you know that I'm well aware of both of these facts; so, I'm not sure how to take your post - moral support? friendly advice? or just 'cos you created the RA group & you feel responsible for it when Noble quotes you? :veryconfused: Just curious, no big deal ...

JC - I think you may have reached terminal velocity on this forum - nobody appears willing to even engage you in open conversation when you are clearly crying out to express your opinions - they're either scared, tired or plain indifferent.

So, I'll bite - it's clearly Violetta's post that you are referring to. I don't think it's an isolated - or even a minority - opinion that she expressed. l'd like to hear the other side of the argument - not sure if you would make it on philosophical grounds or if it's more personal? either way, better to express yourself than leave it hanging in the air methinks?

[quote=Violetta;118068]Look: I'm checking in for a flight. I weigh 48 kg. I have inadvertently bought too many books or jars of marmalade so when placed on the scales, my suitcase weighs 28 kg. I have to pay excess baggage charge.
Behind me in the queue I see a good percentage of people waiting to check-in who - without even packing a pencil in their bag - weigh easily 25%+ more than the 76 kg that constitutes me and my excess baggage combined.
This is not only clearly unfair, it is also blatant discrimination against lightweight people.
Airlines should revert to the system that used to be in place at Croydon Aerodrome in the days of Imperial Airways when passengers were weighed along with their luggage at check-in.
Why should people be treated any differently than, say, parcels? The heavier you are, the more it costs the airline to fly you wherever you're going, so the more you should have to pay.[/quote]

In my youth I did a great deal of cycling around Europe. I did a great deal of rugby and am a qualified weight training instructuctor. As a result I have calf muscles which are significantly bigger than most peoples thighs and stupid size quads. I am 6ft and have very broad set shoulders with arms which cannot be considered small. When I was cycling 13miles a day to and from work (26miles a day) I was 18.5 stone. This was simply due to exercise. Now I do not exercise as much I am not particularly overweight but am bordering on 20st and certainly have a BMI which is off the scale (because it's a very poor way of measuring) and whilst I do not cram myself into Ryanair seats I do touch the sides.

I wouldn't really have much of a problem for paying for extra space on board. That said I would find it totally unfair to pay for additional space when someone like you gets that space for free. I do agree that treating people like parcels is a solution. That would mean they would fit more people on a flight. You would not get space you do not need and i would get the space i do. So using your logic the solution is to provide different sized seats where you can have a narrow one and i can have a wider one and I pay more and that would be fair. Unfortunately I suspect your husband or other travelling companions have a different waist size to you so you would obviously have to sit seperately. I'd be ok because my 15 year old is bigger than me (although slim) and my twelve year old is not far behind.

Unlike most I take the time to weigh my bags before flying and have no idea how someone can inadvertantly buy 8kg of marmalade. I always end up stood behind that person and it really is very frustrating when I make the effort to make sure I am prepared to get through check in quickly. Maybe a nobhead tax would be more appropriate where you get charged for how long it takes to check in two bags and two people (anything over two minutes has a £5 a minute charge) because it really is very frustrating when people know what the rules are but don't think it applies to them (which is the real reason for turning up with a bag almost 50% overweight!!)

Anyway, stupid argument anyway because it wont happen:nah:.

(Oh and by the way the reason the limit is 20kg is because of the manual handling regulations. Maximum BALANCED load you can lift is 25kg. as no-one considers balance when they pack a suitcase they reduce it. If you put a 28kg suitcase it needs two people to lift it)

Andy

Andy, do you remember way, way back when I said your posts about geothermal whatjamacallits and heating thingymabobs were interesting to read, direct, informative and always cheered me up? It still applies.

[QUOTE=pigro;118123]Nielo, I know that you know that I'm well aware of both of these facts; so, I'm not sure how to take your post - moral support? friendly advice? or just 'cos you created the RA group & you feel responsible for it when Noble quotes you? :veryconfused: Just curious, no big deal ...

QUOTE]

Pigro

I know you know I know you know, my post was purely for the benefit of anyone reading this thread who might misinterpret your comment “last time I looked, I wasn't a part of the Ryanir group.” As meaning that the group was selective in anyway and perhaps be put off joining.

Hope I have explained myself?

Wasn't Violetta's tongue firmly in her cheek??

[quote=annec;118131]Wasn't Violetta's tongue firmly in her cheek??[/quote]

That tends to happen when you have your head up there!!

[quote=Nielo;118130][quote=pigro;118123]Nielo, I know that you know that I'm well aware of both of these facts; so, I'm not sure how to take your post - moral support? friendly advice? or just 'cos you created the RA group & you feel responsible for it when Noble quotes you? :veryconfused: Just curious, no big deal ...

QUOTE]

Pigro

I know you know I know you know, my post was purely for the benefit of anyone reading this thread who might misinterpret your comment “last time I looked, I wasn't a part of the Ryanir group.” As meaning that the group was selective in anyway and perhaps be put off joining.

Hope I have explained myself?[/quote]
Thanks for clarifying ... understood. Reason I quieried it is that I see no point in making groups (other than perhaps esoteric, special interest ones with contentious or private content) require membership before you can view the posts within. RA isn't everyones cup of tea, but it does interest & affect many people (including non-members of the forum), and I'm not sure why it is viewable only by registered members who opt to join. That's a general point, not specific to the RA group. Anyway, back on topic - large passengers rights/limitations on ANY airline :-)

[quote=pigro;118123]

JC - I think you may have reached terminal velocity on this forum - nobody appears willing to even engage you in open conversation when you are clearly crying out to express your opinions - they're either scared, tired or plain indifferent.

So, I'll bite - it's clearly Violetta's post that you are referring to. I don't think it's an isolated - or even a minority - opinion that she expressed. l'd like to hear the other side of the argument - not sure if you would make it on philosophical grounds or if it's more personal? either way, better to express yourself than leave it hanging in the air methinks?[/quote]

Sorry Pigro I have really only just seen your post above - dont't know how I missed it actually, but I did.

It is not my fault if people are scared, tired or indifferent when I cry out to express my opinions - anymore than it is my fault if they can not or perhaps choose not to understand them. It is not because I do not express myself clearly and so I refuse to confirm or deny whether or not my previous stunned post is refferring to Violettas post or not. You may choose to believe I am referring to Violettas post and others may see that I did not name anyone and therefore, I should be given the benefit of the doubt as there is no proof so, I am innocent until proven guilty.

Clarity was the key - but I have decided to play the forum game and follow everyone else in causing confusion for everyone, everywhere, by not giving a clear answer on anything anymore. I'll let those more capable than I continue to swirl the muddy waters and I'll sit back and post uninteresting crap.

Tis the only way forward Sir. :bigergrin:

WidowT - There's a clear issue re. large (but not fat) passengers coping with seats designd for the average sized person ... I expected it to crop up, as it's easier for a big bloke who's not regarded as fat by society but just 'large' to highlight the iniquity of sizeist discrimination. It's actually a remarkably complex question and (somewhat unusually for me) I haven't got my own view quite clear yet .. hence my interest in views of anyone who is actually in the genuinely overweight category. I'm not sure if you're saying that you own case should lead us to rule out this idea in principle - or whether you feel differently about others who are overweight through their own actions as opposed to genetics etc.

Oh and - while I initially afgreed with you athat this probably won't happen ... having looked at Southwest & United in the States tonight, and knowing how UK tends to follow the US (in diet & policy) I'm now less sure ...

[quote=juliancoll;118134]Sorry Pigro I have really only just seen your post above - dont't know how I missed it actually, but I did.

It is not my fault if people are scared, tired or indifferent when I cry out to express my opinions - anymore than it is my fault if they can not or perhaps choose not to understand them. It is not because I do not express myself clearly and so I refuse to confirm or deny whether or not my previous stunned post is refferring to Violettas post or not. You may choose to believe I am referring to Violettas post and others may see that I did not name anyone and therefore, I should be given the benefit of the doubt as there is no proof so, I am innocent until proven guilty.

Clarity was the key - but I have decided to play the forum game and follow everyone else in causing confusion for everyone, everywhere, by not giving a clear answer on anything anymore. I'll let those more capable than I continue to swirl the muddy waters and I'll sit back and post uninteresting crap.

Tis the only way forward Sir. :bigergrin:[/quote] Well then, I expect you to follow me into semi-retirement imminently then ... can't see you settling for pipe & slippers/Daily mail persona after all these years (and aliases) but we'll see.

[quote=pigro;118136]WidowT - There's a clear issue re. large (but not fat) passengers coping with seats designd for the average sized person ... I expected it to crop up, as it's easier for a big bloke who's not regarded as fat by society but just 'large' to highlight the iniquity of sizeist discrimination. It's actually a remarkably complex question and (somewhat unusually for me) I haven't got my own view quite clear yet .. hence my interest in views of anyone who is actually in the genuinely overweight category. I'm not sure if you're saying that you own case should lead us to rule out this idea in principle - or whether you feel differently about others who are overweight through their own actions as opposed to genetics etc.

Oh and - while I initially afgreed with you athat this probably won't happen ... having looked at Southwest & United in the States tonight, and knowing how UK tends to follow the US (in diet & policy) I'm now less sure ...[/quote]

I think the point is that if you don't want to feel like you're in a cattle truck don't fly Ryanair. If you fly Ryanair shut up and grin and bear it.

I see people on the tube everyday complaining about being pushed and people invading their personal space (travelling in the rush hour). It's just nuts. End of story really.

People are fat for all sorts of reasons. Giving up smoking is quite often a cause for weight gain, mental illness, low intelligence, inherited medical conditions, diabetes as well as being a greedy git. Alcoholism is a disorder which can cause weight gain (if it's beer you drink)and is conquering this is about will power and confidence. Having someone at check out shout give us a tenner you fat git at check in is possibly not the best way to boost confidence. If we were to make such comments to Ryanair staff in any way we would be thrown off the filght! I just find it generally unfair and very very discriminatory because a lot of people can do nowt about it and even if they can what business is it of yours for a two hour period you're on the flight. Go sit somewhere else because you can you know if you turn up early enough (and don't have to stand in the queue to pay the excess baggage charge)

Apart from that Ryanairs policy has been flying should be like riding a bus. Go get on a bus at rush hour. It doesn't matter what size people are. Stick a lot of people in a small place and it's tight and uncomfortable. It's an objective so why is there an additional charge for it.

There are people on Ryanair who wind me up. People who turn up with excess baggage being one of them because they know the rules and can do something about it very easily. I also find smelly people quite offensive. Maybe we should develop a scale of pungence where we can charge people accordingly or charge for crying kids (rather than taking them for near enough free and disrupting the entire flight. Or american catholics who prattle on really loudly about going to see the holyfather whilst your trying to go to sleep should be charged. No comment like that came up but overweight people are fair game for some reason. I just find it offensive. But then again I have some very strong opinions about equality and playing fair.

Andy

My aliases are very old news Pigro and why would you expect me to retire? Have I said or done something to make you think I'm going to retire? I know you know very well that what you get isn't always what you expect, but wasn't "after all these years" a song title?

Ah well, the mind boggles - not to worry. :laughs:

[quote=juliancoll;118142]My aliases are very old news Pigro and why would you expect me to retire? Have I said or done something to make you think I'm going to retire? [/quote]
just extrapolating the likely effect of your trying to emulate the insipid 'style du jour' here ....

[quote=juliancoll;118142] I know you know very well that what you get isn't always what you expect, but wasn't "after all these years" a song title?[/quote]
Indeed ... just hope you're referring to "still crazy .." by Paul Simon, not the horrible Journey thingy ... it's certainly more apposite (and much better) :-)

anyway - beer's worn off, time for bed.

Good Lord Pigro! Off to bed? You lightweight. See, I can still do it when I want! (take the piss, pretend I'm still crazy after all these years - and stay on topic)

But here's a subliminal message for your ears only - play it backwards as quietly as you can, but only on a desert island under the Tuscan sun. :bigergrin:

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbZM6ZSlvvY#]YouTube - DeVotchKa-How it ends[/url]

This from a few years ago:
[quote]A holidaymaker has won a £13,000 settlement from Virgin Atlantic after she was crushed and injured by an obese passenger seated beside her on a flight to Los Angeles.
Barbara Hewson, from Swansea, suffered a haematoma in her chest, torn leg muscles and a crippling form of sciatica. Almost two years after the incident, she is still in constant pain and walks with a stick.

Hewson says the passenger was so large that she could only get into her economy-class seat by raising the armrest and spilling into the adjacent seat. She was unable to squeeze into the toilet and, throughout much of the 11hr flight, her elbow rested on Hewson’s chest.

As soon as Hewson boarded the aircraft at Heathrow and saw the woman, she complained to the cabin crew, but was told the flight was full.

“Their attitude was awful. They said I could get off the flight and wait for the next one, or I could ask if another passenger would exchange seats with me — which was clearly ludicrous.” Hewson, who is 4ft 11in tall, saw no alternative but to take her seat.

“It was horrific,” she says. “This woman was so enormous that she was literally sitting on top of me. Her left leg was pressing down on my right leg and her arm was across my chest, pinning me down. She was so far across me that, although she was sitting to my right, the haematoma developed in my left breast. To add insult to injury, about halfway into the flight, we discovered that her husband was sitting directly behind her. He clearly knew better than to sit next to his own wife.”

As well as developing a haematoma, which led to a burst blood vessel in her left hand, Hewson suffered damage to the muscles and sciatic nerves of her right leg, and torn muscles in her buttock, caused by the pressure of the seat-belt buckle. In Los Angeles, she was admitted to hospital in a wheelchair and injected with painkillers. On her return home, she was bedridden for a month.
[/quote]
[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article815167.ece]Crushed by ‘obese’ passenger -Times Online[/url]

There is always a solution, for those who can afford it, to travel First Class or at least Business Class. Comfortable seat, leg space, nice meals (as nice as they can be on a plane) and generally well behaved people who will not make much noise, unless you have a team of footballers who have just won a cup. Obviously, it will not be on Ryanair.

I believe that's one of the options United Airlines offers oversized passengers- pay for an adjacent seat in coach, or upgrade to First or Business Class. Better for all involved.

There are many problems for any airline having to transport oversized passengers. They will not fit into ordinary economy class seats, they are too narrow. Also, leg space is limited. There are some rows where you have a bit more space, such as the first row - which is normally reserved for people travelling with babies and very young children - and the emergency exits, but to put an oversized person or anyone who will have difficulties moving rapidly in an emergency will be considered a dangerous practice and will not be done. Same thing applies not only to oversized people. Passengers suffering from leg problems will also be a danger in case of an emergency.
On the other hand, I watched a couple of years ago on United Airlines something that I could not believe my eyes! An oversized flight assistant! A lady who was really obese trying to serve drinks on the flight from Los Angeles to San Francisco. The flight had been delayed and everyone was complaining, so the airline decided to serve free drinks to everyone to compensate for the delay. I simply could not believe my eyes as the flight assistant was blocking the aisle completely and she was occupying more space than the drinks trolley. I mention this incident to my daughter and she simply said: "Mum, this is because of the anti-discrimination laws". Now, it looks as if they are discriminating against the passengers!!!!! As for this lady, I would have transferred her to work on the ground where she would have been more comfortable.... and the passengers safer.

[quote=widow twanky;118140]I think the point is that if you don't want to feel like you're in a cattle truck don't fly Ryanair. If you fly Ryanair shut up and grin and bear it.

I see people on the tube everyday complaining about being pushed and people invading their personal space (travelling in the rush hour). It's just nuts. End of story really.

People are fat for all sorts of reasons. Giving up smoking is quite often a cause for weight gain, mental illness, low intelligence, inherited medical conditions, diabetes as well as being a greedy git. Alcoholism is a disorder which can cause weight gain (if it's beer you drink)and is conquering this is about will power and confidence. Having someone at check out shout give us a tenner you fat git at check in is possibly not the best way to boost confidence. If we were to make such comments to Ryanair staff in any way we would be thrown off the filght! I just find it generally unfair and very very discriminatory because a lot of people can do nowt about it and even if they can what business is it of yours for a two hour period you're on the flight. Go sit somewhere else because you can you know if you turn up early enough (and don't have to stand in the queue to pay the excess baggage charge)

Apart from that Ryanairs policy has been flying should be like riding a bus. Go get on a bus at rush hour. It doesn't matter what size people are. Stick a lot of people in a small place and it's tight and uncomfortable. It's an objective so why is there an additional charge for it.

There are people on Ryanair who wind me up. People who turn up with excess baggage being one of them because they know the rules and can do something about it very easily. I also find smelly people quite offensive. Maybe we should develop a scale of pungence where we can charge people accordingly or charge for crying kids (rather than taking them for near enough free and disrupting the entire flight. Or american catholics who prattle on really loudly about going to see the holyfather whilst your trying to go to sleep should be charged. No comment like that came up but overweight people are fair game for some reason. I just find it offensive. But then again I have some very strong opinions about equality and playing fair.

Andy[/quote]

This is like a wonderful breath of fresh air Andy. Someone who understands.

For the last few years I have had to put up with jibes such as you mention - I will always try and explain the situation if the people making them can be bothered to listen. But you know, it's like many problems if you let them grow, they then start to really trouble you. Then you find yourself constantly on the defensive, instead of facing up to them and dealing with them once and for all!

But I digress... back to your premise. Yes there are (I imagine) many forms of behaviour and physical conditions that others may find offensive - but as you say if you choose to take cheap flights on RA then you know what to expect! You are right - there are too many who expect the rules to be waived 'just for them'! What makes them so special?

I really do feel though, that the suggestion as a competition entry was/is offensive right from the start. It would be interesting to know just how that winning entry was actually worded...have RA posted it anywhere? Maybe it just Ryanair playing their famous "publicity at any cost" game, or maybe are they reflecting the essence of that winning entry?

I wonder if the problem of offending oversized passengers by publicly asking them to pay for an additional seat/upgrade to Business Class could be avoided by simply requesting 2 seats/upgraded class when booking online/ by phone?

That would be the logical thing to do, Campfield, once the regulation has been introduced; however, I doubt that many people will do it.

I went on a coach to Heathrow a few years ago - had a window seat, nice and comfy - coach fills up and really fat guy sits next to me! In order for people to walk past him to get to toilet he has to sit on a third of my seat. I was damn furious - I had paid for my seat and I didn't want to share it with this obese man. He should have booked 2 seats and paid for them .:nah:

I'm late inot this thread and can't be bothered to read all the posts - this may be a repeat therefore.

I think the issue is one of passenger comfort -- for both "fat" people and non "fat people". Somebody's size should not be singled out as a reason to charge more. No, Ryanair should recognise that its customers do not come in just one size and have some larger seats available for booking. How difficult would that be - not very.

I doubt that a few kilos of extra passengers on a flight makes a damn difference to the balance sheet, but what makes a difference is the salaries of ground crew that have to be paid for habdling all the luggage.

I was on a plane once, a Middle Eastern carrier, you'll have seen their ads everywhere, and there was this woman who sat by mistake in my colleague's seat. We remonstrated with her but she was so fat, she couldn't get out. What really got us was that the seat was on the end of a row so, in the event of an emergency, everyone to the right of her would have been trapped. Fat therefore = handicapped and they should be treated accordingly. (Bunged in the hold, my colleague reckoned, but that's another story....)
And then the other day we saw an American guy in a Tuscan hilltown sitting on a bench reading a book. We looked at this guy and we thought to ourselves, how the heck did he get here? For he was HUGE, simply enormous and there was no conceivable way he could have squeezed in to even the widest pitch J class seat. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Travelling all that way from the States jammed in to a seat. It would certainly motivate me to lose weight.

Now, now, perhaps we are not dealing with the real problem here. Not every person with overweight is someone who eats non stop any kind of junk food and drinks half a dozen beers before lunchtime. There is a percentage of people with metabolism related problems or other health issues who cannot control their weight. Even with lots of medical help some cases are difficult to solve. It is a disability and society should not turn its back to them. We have blind people travelling with their guide dogs, we have seriously handicapped people who need wheelchairs and lots of assistance to move around and they are not charged extra money to travel. Yes, they need to occupy special seats and they cannot be put in a place where they could block emergency exits. Perhaps the airlines should review this policy and allow people with excess weight on board to occupy special seats. Medical certificates should be required pointing out that the person suffers from a special condition, so that everything is correct. It is customary for the airlines to request medical certificates from passengers with disabilities, pregnant women, etc. I think that this is the correct way to approach the problem.

[quote=widow twanky;118126]In my youth I did a great deal of cycling around Europe. I did a great deal of rugby and am a qualified weight training instructuctor. As a result I have calf muscles which are significantly bigger than most peoples thighs and stupid size quads. I am 6ft and have very broad set shoulders with arms which cannot be considered small. When I was cycling 13miles a day to and from work (26miles a day) I was 18.5 stone. This was simply due to exercise. Now I do not exercise as much I am not particularly overweight but am bordering on 20st and certainly have a BMI which is off the scale (because it's a very poor way of measuring) and whilst I do not cram myself into Ryanair seats I do touch the sides.

I wouldn't really have much of a problem for paying for extra space on board. That said I would find it totally unfair to pay for additional space when someone like you gets that space for free. I do agree that treating people like parcels is a solution. That would mean they would fit more people on a flight. You would not get space you do not need and i would get the space i do. So using your logic the solution is to provide different sized seats where you can have a narrow one and i can have a wider one and I pay more and that would be fair. Unfortunately I suspect your husband or other travelling companions have a different waist size to you so you would obviously have to sit seperately. I'd be ok because my 15 year old is bigger than me (although slim) and my twelve year old is not far behind.

Unlike most I take the time to weigh my bags before flying and have no idea how someone can inadvertantly buy 8kg of marmalade. I always end up stood behind that person and it really is very frustrating when I make the effort to make sure I am prepared to get through check in quickly. Maybe a nobhead tax would be more appropriate where you get charged for how long it takes to check in two bags and two people (anything over two minutes has a £5 a minute charge) because it really is very frustrating when people know what the rules are but don't think it applies to them (which is the real reason for turning up with a bag almost 50% overweight!!)

Anyway, stupid argument anyway because it wont happen:nah:.

(Oh and by the way the reason the limit is 20kg is because of the manual handling regulations. Maximum BALANCED load you can lift is 25kg. as no-one considers balance when they pack a suitcase they reduce it. If you put a 28kg suitcase it needs two people to lift it)

Andy[/quote]

Excellent posting

[quote=Violetta;118836]I was on a plane once, a Middle Eastern carrier, you'll have seen their ads everywhere, and there was this woman who sat by mistake in my colleague's seat. We remonstrated with her but she was so fat, she couldn't get out. What really got us was that the seat was on the end of a row so, in the event of an emergency, everyone to the right of her would have been trapped. Fat therefore = handicapped and they should be treated accordingly. (Bunged in the hold, my colleague reckoned, but that's another story....)
And then the other day we saw an American guy in a Tuscan hilltown sitting on a bench reading a book. We looked at this guy and we thought to ourselves, how the heck did he get here? For he was HUGE, simply enormous and there was no conceivable way he could have squeezed in to even the widest pitch J class seat. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Travelling all that way from the States jammed in to a seat. It would certainly motivate me to lose weight.[/quote]

[CENTER]I am going to frame this post and hang it on the forum door.

In fact, I am going to nominate this post of Violettas as

[B][COLOR="red"][SIZE="4"]FORUM POST OF THE DECADE[/SIZE] [/COLOR][/B]

and hope it gets the recognition it truly deserves![/CENTER]

I am just over 6ft, never mind the width ( but having been a left prop in rugby I have that too, when I am in a ryanair seat my kneecaps are jammed into the back of the seat in front of me, when I flew with a freiend recently at 6 ft 6inches he had to spend most of the flight walking the aisle as he couldnt physically sit in his seat, except on take of and landing when he had to squeeze the person beside him... which they were very good about.
I wouldnt mind paying more for my seat if it was more comfortable, but then as widow twanky says, why should small, short or thin people have almost luxurious space for the same price... cut them back and squeeze them in tight as well.

[quote=Torchiarolan;118900]I think that is a disgusting remark and has belittled you as no better in my eyes than an ignorant bigot.[/quote]

Actually I have never reported a posting before as I believe in free speech, this I have reported though, but this post and other members have overstepped the mark,.. and anyone else who agrees with campfield should hang their heads ... discrimination at its worst... whats next ? racism ?? cripple-bashing ???

[quote=Torchiarolan;118900]I think that is a disgusting remark and has belittled you as no better in my eyes than an ignorant bigot.[/quote]

What!! We have BIGOTS on the Forum? :swoon:

Call the Police - and the exterminators - so we can get rid of the rat in a bucket and the scorpion too!

The place must be crawling with little creatures! :laughs:

[quote=Violetta;118836]I was on a plane once, a Middle Eastern carrier, you'll have seen their ads everywhere, and there was this woman who sat by mistake in my colleague's seat. We remonstrated with her but she was so fat, she couldn't get out. What really got us was that the seat was on the end of a row so, in the event of an emergency, everyone to the right of her would have been trapped.[B] Fat therefore = handicapped and they should be treated accordingly. (Bunged in the hold, my colleague reckoned, but that's another story....)[/B]And then the other day we saw an American guy in a Tuscan hilltown sitting on a bench reading a book. We looked at this guy and we thought to ourselves, how the heck did he get here? For he was HUGE, simply enormous and there was no conceivable way he could have squeezed in to even the widest pitch J class seat. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Travelling all that way from the States jammed in to a seat. It would certainly motivate me to lose weight.[/quote]

I have highlighted one sentence in your post Violetta which astounds me... "[I]Fat therefore = handicapped and they should be treated accordingly (bunged in the hold my colleague reckoned..." [/I] go on, pray tell how do you think handicaps should be treated??? your colleague thinks bunged in the hold... I can hear refrains of "Arbeit macht frei" blowing in the breeze on this thread.
Go on post a photo of yourself so as to show us what an outstanding example of humankind you are compared to the poor fat people you so despise.
You should be ashamed too.

[quote=Torchiarolan;118900]I think that is a disgusting remark and has belittled you as no better in my eyes than an ignorant bigot.[/quote]
It was a bit of gallows humour, no insult intended. I will go delete it, as I meant no offense. Please, excuse my bad taste.

[quote=Campfield;118920]It was a bit of gallows humour, no insult intended. I will go delete it, as I meant no offense. Please, excuse my bad taste.[/quote]

You are having to become quite adept at wriggling out of statements you have made aren't you?

Moxie (and him)

[quote=Campfield;118920]It was a bit of gallows humour, no insult intended. I will go delete it, as I meant no offense. Please, excuse my bad taste.[/quote]

Seems to me that there is rarely 'smoke without fire! '

Having committed an offense, I know no other way to rectify it than to apologize to those offended, and try not to offend in future. Please hold my feet to the fire in future if I dare overstep the boundaries again. I'll do my utmost not to.

Campfield,
Hello, I am a newbie too, stay away from the politics and join in with the quiz, OR give up smoking, but don't expect a grazie. There is fun to be had and friends to be made. :smile:

[quote=Campfield;118925]Having committed an offense, I know no other way to rectify it than to apologize to those offended, and try not to offend in future.[B] [I] Please hold my feet to the fire in future if I dare overstep the boundaries again. [/I][/B] I'll do my utmost not to.[/quote]

Dont spoil your apology