12313 Rebuilding a Rustico, are these prices OK?

I think that when you read the replies to this, you'd best be seated. Plumbing..gold fittings? Electrics..shocking. Sorry. There are many who will shortly put you sort of straight.

I cannot comment on the cost quoted except the one relating to a heating system.

We have been quoted 16,000 Euros for a complete wood burning/gas system (can't remember the name for it off hand) which includes a large buried tank of gas, all pipework throughout the house and my house walls are about 30" thick very, very hard stone, radiators in every room, ie 4 bedrooms, three reception rooms, 2 bathrooms, one hallway, the gas system fitted into the outside wall, original fireplace taken out and new put in, other fireplace revamped with glass fitting and whatever else to make it much more functional, all the walls put back to perfect condition and painted again and whatever else I forgot. Within this price I am also getting plumbing put in from the house to an outbuilding and my washing machine and a sink/taps set up in the said outbuilding.

This price is for top quality materials, radiators,systems etc. We were told it could be a cheaper quote for cheaper type materials but we are opting for the best as quoted in the 16,000Euros. Already one radiator has been installed when the kitchen was installed and it is a real super style and quality so if this is the type we are going to have I will be very happy.

The plumber has a superb reputation in the area and we have been told he isn't the cheapest but he has been recommended by a lot of people we know who only go for quality. He has done work for us already doing the plumbing for our kitchen and employed a tiler and electrician to do the tiling and electrics for us. That job, for a large kitchen with all mod cons, for the plumbing, electrics and tiling (tiles were extra) came to 2,400Euros.

I will leave it to you to decide if you think you are paying over the odds. I live in Picinisco, near Cassino south of Rome. Maybe we aren't paying Tuscany rates or we have made good contacts who are not taking us for a ride.
Best of luck with your project.
Maralyn

Moonland - No wonder the Italians and especially geometras love the good old Brit on his white steed coming to rescue their economy and make them some extra money in these crisis times!!!

An Italian once said to me - Italians pay €1 and the Brits €10 - what is it with you Brits - Do you go abroad and leave your brains at home?
Would you pay this sort of money in the UK NO - then why pay it here in Italy. But hey it's your money ...?!!:smile:

Moonland- it angers me - not so much the prices (all builders try it on) but the Brits who pay these stupid and outrageous offers - Why? .... because it elevates the prices for local Italians and we end up with a chiantishire where only the well heeled foreigner can live and the locals are angry they can't buy a barn which costs about €4 billion euros!!

.....on a more reasoned note refurbishment costs are about €1.300 - €1.500/m2 so you are paying €1.000/m2 too much. We built our house with a high level of sophistication well insulated for €800/m2 New build. There are savings to be made on the prices I have quoted but it depends on "gold taps or chrome taps".

I'd get yourself a proper project manager to help you!!:smile:

Hi Moonland, the quote seems to be high and the advice given by Lotan regarding costs is correct. As he says, it all depends on "gold taps and chrome taps", that is to say the finishes you choose, but overall the quotes are expensive. We had to do some works at the old mill we bought in Bagni di Lucca and we did not have to pay the prices you quote. Granted than refurbishment always costs more than new build, but there are limits.

[quote=lotan4850;119246]Moonland- it angers me - not so much the prices (all builders try it on) but the Brits who pay these stupid and outrageous offers - Why? .... because it elevates the prices for local Italians and we end up with a chiantishire where only the well heeled foreigner can live and the locals are angry they can't buy a barn which costs about €4 billion euros!!

.....on a more reasoned note refurbishment costs are about €1.300 - €1.500/m2 so you are paying €1.000/m2 too much. We built our house with a high level of sophistication well insulated for €800/m2 New build. There are savings to be made on the prices I have quoted but it depends on "gold taps or chrome taps".

I'd get yourself a proper project manager to help you!!:smile:[/quote]
Thank you for your suggestions, so my next question is how much does a Project Manager cost on a 150 m2 "rustico" rebuild?

Moonland,

Of course fees vary from PM to PM but I would think 10% fixed fee agreed on a mutually agreed budget over a reasonably long timescale plus some travel expenses depending on the distance.

But if he can save you €1.000/m2 then he should be worth his weight and you can keep your hard earned money and get a project finished on time to a reasonable cost.

:smile:

Back to the subject of the estimates:-

I well remember when my geometra got estimates for some alterations to my place. Whilst most of them seemed OK, I was appalled by the estimate for tiling a new bathroom. I told the geometra that it wasn't acceptable, and to seek [much] lower quotes. He came back with a quote of approx 50% of the first one - from the same Tiler! This was accepted and the work was completed - to my total satisfaction.

The thing i learnt from this was to 'be like an Italian' - never accept the first quote - haggle - cry if you have to - and if all else fail, walk away. Its what Italians do - its a national sport [I remember an Italian friend haggling [successfully] for a discount on a 2 Euro T-shirt in the local market].

I firmly believe that locals and tradesmen will respect [and accept] you more if you haggle. The trouble is - its something the British 'just don't do'

.

Alan h - It's one thing to ask for a discount for some tiling work but reducing an estimate by €150' ?! I don't think so!!

In your example - where do you think the 50% went (?) - up in smoke - no it would have gone into the geometras pocket as usual!

The tradesmen don't have anything to do with it - the geometra controls the tradesmen and therefore controls the price and what ever he can get over and above the market rates applicable goes straight into his (the geometra's) pocket.

You got to haggle with the correct party. :smile:

We are doing a 260m2 house on the Umbria/Marche border for around E1000 pm2 excluding IVA. As previous respondents have said it depends on the specification but ours involved knocking down a casale and rebuilding from scratch on the same footprint with the original stones being dressed and used on the outside of the property. Fairly basic finish but the project should now come in on budget.

We have an English speaking architect whose fees are on the expensive side but he pays the geometra from his fees and has done a superb job and gives an excellent service. As a result he has a number of recommendations. He also helped source builders quotes and we have what we consider to be a very good building firm with high integrity.

Unless you are getting an unbelievable specification I would be inclined to look for an architect or geometra who genuinely represents your interests and is not too cosy with the builder.

Incidentally the architect also introduced us to an excellent English speaking lawyer in Perugia whose intervention prevented what could have been a potentially dangerous unsound title when we purchased the site.

Electrical system 22000 euro for 150 square meter house - THAT IS WAY OVER

My geometra is my builder’s daughter.
My builder is a good friend of my Estate Agent.
My best friend (in Italy) is my estate agents cousin.
My “gofer” is my friend’s husband
My handyman/gardener (and my supplier of Grappa) works for my builder.
[FONT=Times New Roman]My cleaner is married to my handyman/gardener[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman]I thought these degrees of seperation were commonplace in Italy.....:eerr:[/FONT]
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Heavens what expensive friends you have. This is a difficult situation to deal with diplomatically. Can a family illness (invented of course) come to the rescue ... this often seems to be a way of exiting obligations. Anyway very good luck with this.

If the "grappa" is very good, keep the handyman/gardener and the cleaner.
As soon as your building works are finished, get rid of the rest.
You may keep your best friend in Italy as you may not need a real estate agent for a while....

OK this is what I do when I have work to be done and don't want to do it myself.
I buy all the materials myself or at least I phone up "cement" "wood" "tile" suppliers to find up what things really cost.
I then pay slightly above the "standard" daily rate (In Sardinia around €12 -€20 euro per hour depending on the trade). Never had a problem finding workers on this basis.

We buy all our windows, doors internal and external and shutters in France where they cost about a quarter. The same counts for tiles, bathroom equipment, etc. If you can do a run in a van you can knock 3/4 of the price of all of the above listed items. We cover the cost of a trip there through the saving we make on one French door alone. Windows start from as little as 110 euros and French doors around 220, all double glazed. Internal oak doors from around 100. It is worth investigating before you commit to Italian quotes.

[quote=amazingmarche;120809]We buy all our windows, doors internal and external and shutters in France where they cost about a quarter. The same counts for tiles, bathroom equipment, etc. If you can do a run in a van you can knock 3/4 of the price of all of the above listed items. We cover the cost of a trip there through the saving we make on one French door alone. Windows start from as little as 110 euros and French doors around 220, all double glazed. Internal oak doors from around 100. It is worth investigating before you commit to Italian quotes.[/quote]

Any recommendations as to French suppliers?

.

We have used Leroy Merlin for many years and we find them convenient. And yes, the French prices and stocks are better and cheaper.

Yes, we use 2 different ones Bricodepot which is like a supersized B&Q and Lapeyre.
Both have good websites with all stock displayed on-line so you can check on sizes and stock. At Bricodepot you pick off the shelf and there is a chance something may not be there when you get there (hasn't happened to us yet) and Lapeyre you have to pre-order on-line and pay a 20% deposit by credit card. It will tell you when your stuff is available for pick (usually 2 weeks from booking), so you can plan your trip accordingly. Both retailers are represented throughout France so that you can pick one en-route from the UK or one closest to the Italian border if you're going from here.

Check their websites for prices. [url=http://www.bricodepot.fr]Accueil | Brico Dépôt[/url] and [url=http://www.lapeyre.fr]Lapeyre : vente en ligne et conseils pour la maison ; cuisine, salle de bains, dcoration intrieur, extrieur[/url] You best have a dictionary at hand if you don't speak French and a map for the best location to choose. It's not that daunting to buy from there as long as you take your time and do your research properly to ensure you buy all the bits you need, door handles, choose the correct side opening for doors, etc. Some careful planning for your shopping trip can save you a lot of money on Italian retail prices.

Good luck

Excellent advice to look at the catalogue first. For the one I recommended see [url=http://www.leroymerlin.fr]Leroy Merlin[/url]