12283 Certificato di Agibilita

There are far better qualified people on this Forum to answer your question than me but they may be in their beds by now!! So what the hell was your lawyer playing at when you bought the house? That certificato is I believe, a vital part of the transaction. You will need it to run a B&B in Umbria and I imagine anywhere north of the border.

Don't panic. Tomorrow you will have your Forum answer for sure.

Because you want to run 'un attivita' of a B+B, you will need a certificato d'agibilita.
It isn't an 'omission' on the part of the previous owner - if he was just living there as a private householder it might not have ever crossed his mind that such a certificate was even available.
The person who will probably be most helpful to you is a local geometra, although maybe also your local camera di commercio could give you an indication of the best approach. It should not be an insuperable problem.
If (perhaps) you don't have the certification for any plumbing or electrical work which was carried out on behalf of the original owner, it would be absolutely natural for you to contact that owner to enquire who did that work, (and that tecnico perhaps would be willing to write a certificate for his work) - after all, it is the work which is being certified irrespective of who commissioned it. Even lacking a contact with the original tecnico, if the work was carried out perfectly you may be able to find a tecnico to test the sytems and 'sign them off'.

Don't worry about the 'politics' - just speak to your geometra (or find one) and get it sorted. Good luck.

Dont be confused between a certificate of agibilità and a certficiate of abitabilità. The first you will need if you want to run a B&B and it wasnt something that should have been brought up in the sale unless the previous owner was selling his property as a B&B. You will need a geometra to test the drains - make sure they empty into the main sewer and not just into the ground, and test the other connections etc. They will probably also measure the rooms and window sizes to make sure you have the legal sizes for rooms/ventilation etc. A certifiato of abitabilità is another thing entirely and this would have been a part of the sale - as without it a house cannot be a 'house' - ie a mansard/attic remains a roof space and not a penthouse flat if it doesnt have the requisite certifcato of abitabilità - and is there to counteract abusivismo.

Thanks Ram...it was actully rather late (the Forum clock is 2 hours slow), so I knew that you and Charles would turn up trumps this a.m.

CAN ANY ONE NOW SUGGEST HOW TO SET THE FORUM CLOCK TO THE CORRECT TIME

I have sold my apartment in Rome (Trastevere) and found out that the person who sold it to me in 1985 had not completed the paperwork for the "condono" (forgivance) for a loft that been built into it (as applied for in 1986). I now obtained the condono, but the new owner still requires the agibilita (=abitabilita). It looks like a lot of trouble to get it. A geometra in a different town told me that there were several waves of condono rules over the years and that in 1985 one of them stated that the condono to an apartment located in such old buildings automatically acquired also abitabilita. Does anybody know whether it is true and how would I go about getting an official document that states that the agibilita was automatically assigned? Thank you.

[quote=geraldo;118660]Hello All,

Anyone out there that can help to answer this question would be so helpful.

I have recently bought a house in italy and it is our first house , I have my residency etc so in that respect all is fine.

I want to have a B&B running here at the house , done all the paperwork then find that I do not have this certificate from the previous owner.
Anyway what I wanted to ask is that is this certificate important ? I do not want to start digging and find that the previous owner didnt do something and find out that I am liable for a fine , or have to start the whole process of doing the certificate all over again.

Anyone know what is my legal postion ? I dont want to make trouble for myself if not necessary.

All comments would be appreciated.

Kind Regards

Geraldo[/quote]

[FONT=Calibri]The certificate of viability is an important document for people who start a business like yours. The fact that you do not have it depends on what was written in the act of sale of the notary, as it is not always delivered! The seller could not have had it and to have been therefore in a position of illegality! If you want a clear answer on your rights you should let me read the notarial deed and give me more details. You are right to investigate the case before going forward. You may also have some fines because of this.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial][FONT=Calibri]Luchetti & Partners [/FONT][/FONT]
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As of 2001 (Testo Unico dell'Edilizia (DpR 380/2001) the certificato di agibilità took over the certificato di abitabilità (although people often still refer to it using the old term).
Once upon a time they were two distinct things, now in an attempt to cut down on red tape abitabilità is no longer required and its requirements melded with the agibilita certificate.

Charles' recommendation to ask a geometra is the best way forward. In your position, maybe before hiring a geometra, I would also pay a visit to the technical office of the comune, if you haven't already, and speak to the geometras there.

You don't say either when the property was built and if any restoration works took place. Older buildings that haven't had anything done to them might not have a certificate and not having one doesn't mean it is unsaleable. At the technical office of the comune you can do a historical search on the property, to see whether the building was built before the abitabilità regulations came in. Then, still at the Comune, check to see that no additional works were carried out which would have necessitated the issue of agibilità. If the property is relatively new, agibilità is a necessity but if all is in order with the property the comune will be able to issue one for you if you've been asked for it to open your B&B.

As far as opening a B&B goes, I found this info on bed-and-breakfast.it - you probably know it already but useful for anyone else thinking about it.

The laws do vary from region to region, but the main law is Legge 29 marzo 2001, n. 135 - "Riforma della legislazione nazionale del turismo",
The house can have no more than 3 bedrooms (4 in Emilia Romagna, and Abruzzo, 5 in Sicily) duly furnished with bed, wardrobe, sidetables, lamps, chairs and wastepaper bin - to sleep a maximum of 6 (but this again varies from region to region).
If you don't offer the rooms for 90 days a year you don't have to open a partita IVA.
Double bedrooms must have 14 m2, singles 8m2, you must be in compliance with electricity, gas, heating requirements, hygiene and building regulations. This again varies from region to region. If the house is very old, you might find you need to carry out works before you can open the B&B to bring the house up to standard, in which case you'd need to request the agibilità from the comune after works are complete. The breakfast that is offered can only be prepackaged food and drink that is not "manipulated" in anyway before offering to guests (closed packets etc) - :eeeek:. No morning fry ups or homemade croissants.
Then just go to the Tourist Office of your Comune and make a denuncia di inizio attività, informing them of the prices you will charge. The prices with the Comune's stamp must be fixed to the door in guests' bedrooms.

It's also worth knowing that even with new properties many Comune's don't actually issue a real live piece of paper - with the "silent assent" rule, agibilita is just presumed after 60 days have passed from the date of presenting the application for it.

[COLOR=#000000]Caro Gardahome,
non so se rispondevi al mio quesito od an altro (B&B). Grazie comunque. Qui sotto e il mio quesito. Potresti rispondermi? Ho avuto gia varie risposte interessanti ed utili. Spero che tu ce ne aggiunga la tua sul mio caso. Nel mio caso, l'appartamentino era stato ristrutturato nel 1985 in una palazzina antica (per lo meno medievale, direi; era un convento originariamente) ed era ancora per lo piu quasi tutto nello stato in cui vivevano gli occupanti di palazzine popolari a Roma nel dopoguerra, cioe molto primitivo. Quindi il "restauro" (ossia,
ristrutturazione?) del mio appartamento consistette nel rifarci tutto dentro, pavimenti, bagno, cucina, finestre, riscaldamento, telefono, ecc. In piu, essendo sotto il tetto che e molto alto, vi era stato costruito un soppalco che non era stato condonato ed era l'unica cosa per cui era stato richiesto il condono dalla persona che me lo vendette. Forse a quell'epoca non serviva chiedere condono di altro. Il condono adesso ce l'ho in mano.

In particolare mi interessa la faccenda del tacito consenso. Si applica anche al mio caso? E legalmente soddisfacente per il nuovo proprietario che ha acquistato da me? Come glielo dimostro?
Grazie, Giovanna

Vedi qui sotto per la mia domanda originale.

Avevo comprato nel 1985 un appartamentino a Roma, in Trastevere, in una palazzina di epoca probabilmente medievale o pressapoco. Il mio era uno dei primi appartamenti ad essere restaurati nella palazzina. Come parte del restauro, vi era stato costruito un soppalco per il quale il venditore doveva chiedere il condono. Questi lo fece nel 1986 ma non completo' la pratica (a mia insaputa...ingenua ed in piu vivo all'estero). Adesso ho venduto l'appartamento ed ho ottenuto, come richieduto nel rogito, il condono per il soppalco. Pero mi si dice che ho anche l'obbligo di ottenere l'abitabilita.
Mi si dice che le richieste di condono che risalgono al 1986 fanno appoggio ad una legge del 1985 quando in palazzine del genere con il condono si otteneva automaticamente l'abitabilita. E' vero? Se si, dove mi rivolgo per ottenere un documento che attesti l'abitabilita'?
Se non fosse vero, da dove comincio? A chi mi rivolgo? L'amministratore non sa assolutamente niente di abitabilita per la palazzina intera. Grazie per ogni possibile aiuto. Giovannella[/COLOR]

Ciao Giovanna
Infatti la mia risposta era per il B&B. Il "silenzio assenso" sinceramente non so da quando è entrata in vigore, dovrei fare delle ricerche. Bisogna sapere qual'erano le leggi in vigore nel 1985, quando l'appartamento è stato ristrutturato. Tuttavia non vorrei darti informazione sbagliato, ma se trovo qualcosa ti manderò un PM. Ti consiglio di chiedere gli agenti immobiliari sul blog [url=http://www.blogagenzieimmobiliari.it]Agenzie Immobiliari - Il Blog degli Agenti Immobiliari - Agente Immobiliare[/url]. Se scrivi con i dettagli del tuo caso a [email]redazione@quotidianocasa.it[/email], metteranno la tua domanda sul blog e ci sono persone veramente esperte, non solo agenti immobiliari ma anche avvocati, e danno consigli gratuitamente. Comunque faro' qualche ricerca. Se sei in italia, parli con il tecnico del comune - ti diranno tutto. Anche il notaio poteva informarti su queste cose quando hai venduto...

aggiornamento- ho trovato questo (italia oggi)

[I]ABITABILITÀ IN DEROGA, MA NON AUTOMATICA
Il comune sostiene che una volta che avrò condonato l'immobile non è obbligato a rilasciarmi l'abitabilità. Ma con il condono l'abitabilità non è automatica?
L.E. (Arenzano)
In effetti in base al ventesimo comma dell'art. 35 della legge 47/1985, ultimata la procedura per la concessione in sanatoria, deve essere rilasciato anche il certificato di agibilità, anche in deroga alla normativa regolamentare, purché siano osservate le disposizioni vigenti in materia di sicurezza statica, di prevenzione degli incendi e degli infortuni. Per l'applicazione del disposto si devono considerare inderogabili le norme di legge o regolamentari in materia di sicurezza e di prevenzione degli incendi e degli infortuni: la mancata osservanza delle altre, infatti, non costituirà ostacolo al rilascio del certificato in questione.
Con riferimento alla derogabilità delle disposizioni regolamentari in giurisprudenza viene comunque messo in evidenza il principio della ´accettabilità': la deroga ha come limite invalicabile quello di manufatti inaccettabili da un punto di vista igienico-sanitario. La deroga vale dunque nei limiti della accettabilità del manufatto. [/I]

Comunque in risposta alla tua domanda "a chi mi rivolgo" - la risposta è sicuramente "l'ufficio tecnico del comune".

spero che sia di aiuto.

Thanks Gardahomesf for all that info. However, there is ) a difference between the various certificates. here in Sicily I need a certificate of agibilità to open a B&B which I dont need for a house, where the certificate is still called abitabilità. The first is required by APT before they will list a property either as a casa vacanza or B&B - struttura ricettiva, the second is the standard certificate of abitabilità/agibilità for a dwelling. It seems to me that in this case the owner will need both if he is lacking one and wants to open a B&B.

Thanks Ram. :reallyembarrassed: I was under the impression that the certificato di abitabilità no longer exists. See [url]http://www.georoma.it/geopunto/geopunto1/agibilita.pdf[/url], explaining DPR 380/2001

"[I]Il cambiamento introdotto dalla normativa è di carattere terminologico: la distinzione tra “abitabilità” e “agibilità” viene, infatti, definitivamente
superata e i rispettivi titoli di assenso riunificati sotto la denominazione di “certificato dì agibilità”[/I].

I'm curious to know whether Sicily is outside this law? Or have I not understood it correctly? If the old "certificato di abitabilità" is now officially known as a "certificato di agibilità" (which " [I]attesta la sussistenza delle condizioni di sicurezza, igiene, salubrità, risparmio energetico degli edifici e degli impianti negli stessi installati, valutate secondo quanto dispone la normativa vigente[/I]”, as well as the building's static safety etc), what is this specific certificato di agibilità you need to open a B&B you are referring to? Thanks in advance for any light you can shed. :yes:

Hi I wanted to ask Lucetti about something he said about my particular situation.

[U][B]My deed says this[/B][/U]:

Building permit was issued in 2001 by the local commune, works completed 31 dec 2002 and the final declaration(of works finshed) was deposited in the local Municipality in 2003 by the technical official who testified to the livability of the same building.

( we have this declaration stamped by the commune, but we have been told that this is just the declaration by the techno that the works have been finished and he himself testifies to the liviability of the of the restructuring work) but this is not the "request for the certificato di agibilita" which seems to have never been done, I spoke to the techno who did the work and he said that we do not need anything else as once this document has been lodged with the commune that after so many days it is assumed accepted . The commune are not issuing us with a certificato on this alone , so I am confused.

As we are living here permanently , I wanted to know whether I should let the Notary know about this, Am I wrong in thinking that this should have been raised by the notary at the time of signing or can you sell a house with the statement above? without the certificate of agibilita?

My main concerns are now :

Should I tell the original notary about this? I do not want to creat problems for myself or incur further costs.
Although I do not want to be in breach of any laws either.
Should I just get the certificate with the new geometra ?
Am I within my rights to claim costs for this back from the previous owners or because what was written in the deeds is true it would not gain anything ?

I would be very interested to hear from Lucetti the laywer , or any other legal person as to my rights and the best way for me to go forward.

Thanks

Geraldo