12441 News

I've been wanting to join the discussion for some time but I resisted because big changes are coming up and it would be pointless to say or do anything without having something concrete and real in hand, as it run the risk of sounding hollow. Now that we are just about ready to start I can post. So here it is: --------------------------------------- At a recent Italian lifestyle event in London, called "La Dolce Vita", we asked visitors to fill in a simple card that asked them to complete the phrase "I love Italy because...". The results were some brilliant replies, which we will be sharing, but by far the most interesting part of the exercise were the discussions we had the chance to have with people about Italy, their favourite parts of Italy and their relationship with Italy. It also highlighted the fact that we were not having many of these discussions on the forums - and we have known the answer to that problem for quite some time. While our forums are great in that they have a long history and a lot of people have gone through them they are also notorious because quite simply few people manage to stick around. The level of infighting is so high that it is just an unpleasant place to be in. We are entirely to blame for this - community is not something to be done on the side or "by the way", especially when there is a small but very vocal group of people that find fighting on the forums an enjoyable past time that makes constant moderation the only possible solution. We need to do offer the right kind of community to all the people that have been a positive force on the forums but simply could not take the fighting and quite rightly moved on and provide a place that can accommodate the discussions we have been having with a much wider group of people outside the forums (both face-to-face and online). The forums are quite simply not the right place to have such a community experience. There is too much baggage and too many tangled webs. Too many members with all sorts of duplicate accounts that refuse to simply not use these forums, a long history of different fights between different people making it impossible to judge who is right, inconsistent application of regulations that makes any application of regulations pointless, etc. Clearing the air and untangling everything is a huge task on its own. The main reason, however, is that the forums are not really the best place and means to have the kind of discussions we are interested in. The kind of discussions that will get us active in the online community once again - rather than simply observers and administrators. We are looking for clear, focused, on topic discussions that in the end offer everyone interested in the same things. Useful and easily accessible information that helps in visiting and living in Italy and connecting with the people who have done so or also want to do so. It may not be the kind of community that everyone registered on these forums wants. To some people it may appear boring, dry or restrictive. However, if we are to run a community with passion it needs to be a community we believe in. So the only answer is to start over. Our forums will be closing to all posting on the 15th of June - member registration will be closing on the 15th of May. The archives of the forums will remain as a point of reference to everyone as there is tons of useful information in here and it borders on criminal to delete it. A new community website is being created - anyone who cares can join us today - we've set out a simple statement of purpose and some rules for this new community to help define it. However, it should not really be about the rules - it should be about being positive, constructive and useful. As such there are not really going to be drawn out processes on violation - if someone flies off the handle twice it probably means that this is not the place for them. We have laid out what we hope is a clear registration process - the main difference is that there are different membership levels depending on the level of involvement one would like to have with the community and inherent in the registration process is that this should not be considered just an anonymous online place. We are not interested in registration numbers or page views - most content will be closed off to search engines and the like. We think that a group of people that is into talking about Italy in a constructive way (even if it is just 10 of us) is far more powerful that claiming huge registration numbers. Beyond that the next few days will be a bootstrap process for the new community - each member joining now will be able to discuss how they would like the community to shape up and what they would like to see. Each account will be reviewed by either me or Valentina (whom you can meet on the new website and will be the co-community administrator). We want to know all our members - especially those that want to be involved with the community to any great extend - we would like to connect with you not just anonymously over a website but in real life and work together towards improving our knowledge of Italy, connect with others and offer back to Italy as well. For ITALY Magazine and the reasons to do this it are quite simple. We cannot claim to offer a "bridge to Italy" if we are not having positive conversations with the people that take this journey everyday. Your experiences will help inform and shape what both the online and print magazine should deal with. I would just like to repeat that this is not us rejecting ALL that has gone on in these forums. It is us recognising that there have been a lot of great things on here and that do not do anyone justice by not providing a better environment where all the positive discussions (and actions) can continue. Before responding to this thread please consider this - are you interested in joining such a new space? If so visit the new website ITALY Community| The community for lovers of all things Italian, have a look at the statement of purpose and join there. We can continue the discussion there. If you want to clarify a couple of things before joining please e-mail me. If you are not interested then take this opportunity to move on.

Category

Italy Magazine Forums - Announcements & Queries - No Longer Applicable

Ronald I am really sorry that you have had to take this step but I suppose it was inevitable. As you say, this forum is an invaluable resource and I hope it goes from strength to strength.

Thanks Ronald for letting us know what is/has been going on behind the scenes, and what is now to follow, shame we couldn't have known earlier.

I, Ghianda will be registering on the new site and I hope all my friends will be too so that we can continue to share this [I]esperienza virtuale[/I]. (spelling, chi lo sa)

Love, peace, braci, baci, e Forza Italia (but not in the Berlusconi sense). :laughs:

Thanks for that Ronald.

Can I please grab the name 'Phoenix':yes:?

I shall be

Tallulah does the hoola in Hawaii

Drat already taken. :bigergrin:

[quote=Cinghiale;120903]
Can I please grab the name 'Phoenix'?:yes:[/quote]

It's not fair! I want that name Cingy, I've been banned more than you have.

Oops, no fighting in the Piazza allowed - the blood shed will stain the new cobbles. :laughs:

Is there any money in registering for this 'dialogue with you and Valentina'?
It sounds very much to me like an embryonic Italy Magazine online edition, using free journalists....

A new start and changes are always challenging. For this reason I have applied to join. I guess that there is no problem keeping our old names if we wish to do so if accepted.
I have seen that there will be groups. Obviously, membership will depend on who gets approved as a member. Granted that not all the groups were a success, but you only have to have a look at the number of members and posts to see which ones would be worth creating again. Some of them had very interesting information and I do not know whether we could transfer it to the new format.

[quote=juliancoll;120907]It's not fair! I want that name Cingy[/quote]

OK - but only if [B]I [/B]can be JC next time:laughs:!

[quote=Cinghiale;120923]OK - but only if [B]I [/B]can be JC next time:laughs:![/quote]

Cingy - can you carry the burden? If so - go for it - 'cus I have a very weird feeling JC aint gonna get into the Piazza anyway.

The one GREAT thing about this new "community" (when did we become a community Ronni?) is that you have to earn your salt to get a PM facility!

I guess that's some compensation for all my screeching - and for that reason alone I say well done Ronni. :yes:

Alright ...come on own up who took 'Evil Edna'????? :madd:

Mox:bigergrin:

MY GRAZIES:reallyembarrassed:

ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SIX!!!!!!

Ronnie, can I take them with me? I can't live without them....

I want all my Grazies too - I paid for em! :laughs:

Ronni. let me say i especially like the first paragraph of your post......The "join in the discussion bit" you might have just been jesting,but normally you say it as it is.
Too often people use the terms arguing or argument, merely because they do not like the discussion....Glad to see you still know the difference.......

[quote=juliancoll;120933]I want all my Grazies too - I paid for em! :laughs:[/quote]

Read the small print JC :laughs:

Gander, I've got my own "small print" as a signature - it's so small even even I cant read it, but that doesn't matter 'cus I wrote it, so I'm the only one who doesn't need to read it.

Let me know if you cant read it either - and I'll send you a copy for your files. :bigergrin:

JC - I have found your posts fascinating since my early days here on this (now) dying planet. I'd love to see your small print, large print and whatever else you've got to show us. :laughs:

Jeez Gander - do you know what you're asking of me? If I show you everything - I'll get banned even before I attempt to register for Uranus.

That is where we're going isnt it? :yes:

I'll get the Spaceship outta storage. :laughs:

[quote=juliancoll;120949]Jeez Gander - I'll get banned even before I attempt to register for Uranus.[/quote]

You've been watching the Buck Naked video again, haven't you JC:laughs:?

Well JC, it's like Carole said......................"we're heading for Venus"

Too much for me for the mo'. Will have to re read all tomorrow

It will still say the same crap tomorrow as it says today D'Uno.

Looks to me that there will be no "forum" as such, it appears to be like an on-line harvester for information, that IM retains the rights to use/publish/distribute etc etc.
Maybe a switch towards an online magazine with members being the unwitting unpaid contributors of info towards this.... and this switch IMHO was not prompted by any recent spat of rows, and , if you are honest Ronni, it has taken you [B]weeks[/B] to set all this up, (never mind the origin and instigation process) and this is what you were "away" for, and it also answers (finally) why no sub-forum was set up.... why set up something that they were going to kill off anyway.
And before any "forum diehards" jumps down my throat screeching "negativity" [B]think first[/B], take the time to read this post again and[I] for once[/I] you will realise and see that I am [B]yet again[/B] being objective here.
I think those of you who talk about sweetness and light on the forums will find that there is NOT going to be a forum per se.... maybe I'm wrong, but remember this post in the future if I'm not.
Maybe all those grazieing so fast are actually akin to turkeys voting for Christmas.

Absolutely agree with Torch about having to think first - take time to consider. Do you trust ITALY Magazine - do you trust our motives? If you think that we are simply in it to exploit you then please don't join.

Is there a commercial objective for us? Of course there is. We are a business.

The commercial objective is to access the people that are our audience - I would like to think that you can help shape ITALY Magazine (both online and print) and we can help give a voice and a space to all who want to join. We generally make money of advertising and to that end we will probably have some advertising to support the community. What we are determined to do (and what is obvious from the trade advertising part) is that any advertising in the community HAS to be clearly marked - just being honest about what we are doing.

Are we looking for unpaid journalists? Not really - we have tons and tons and tons of material plus we pay several journalists. We actually receive articles daily - a lot of people want to be journalists... I know that many of you don't really look at the home page of italymag.co.uk but does it look that we are in need of new stories?

Then there is another level - ITALY Magazine is a business but Italy is also what almost everyone involved with the magazine is into. I decided to move here - everyone else in the office in Sicily is Italian and excited to be working on the connection between Italy and the world. The owner of the magazine has a home in Lucca which he visits regularly - our weddings magazine editor lives in iIaly. If we did a Spain or France magazine then we would really just be working for works sake. But Italy is just plain different - and like everyone who has already signed up we would love to have an active community just so that we can join in as well!

Now - I think most things that had to be said have been. Most insults have been exchanged. Please do not join if you think that you will be exploited - it would just be plain wrong. As I initially said take this opportunity to move on or to start fresh.

[quote=Torchiarolan;121001]Looks to me that there will be no "forum" as such, it appears to be like an on-line harvester for information, that IM retains the rights to use/publish/distribute etc etc.
Maybe a switch towards an online magazine with members being the unwitting unpaid contributors of info towards this.... and this switch IMHO was not prompted by any recent spat of rows, and , if you are honest Ronni, it has taken you [B]weeks[/B] to set all this up, (never mind the origin and instigation process) and this is what you were "away" for, and it also answers (finally) why no sub-forum was set up.... why set up something that they were going to kill off anyway.
And before any "forum diehards" jumps down my throat screeching "negativity" [B]think first[/B], take the time to read this post again and[I] for once[/I] you will realise and see that I am [B]yet again[/B] being objective here.
I think those of you who talk about sweetness and light on the forums will find that there is NOT going to be a forum per se.... maybe I'm wrong, but remember this post in the future if I'm not.
Maybe all those grazieing so fast are actually akin to turkeys voting for Christmas.[/quote]

If I Grazie your post Torchy - would that make me a clucking Turkey too?

Do Turkeys cluck? :wideeyed:

[quote=juliancoll;121012]If I Grazie your post Torchy - would that make me a clucking Turkey too?

Do Turkeys cluck? :wideeyed:[/quote]

No they Gobble:bigergrin:

Dear Ronald

I have read the terms and conditions of the new Community website which details the users rights and responsibilities but I cannot see anywhere where the responsibilities of the administrators are explained, except where folk can be banned if they step out of line more than once. Yes, this is a free community but it will be a community that not only benefts individual users but the Italymag.as well and as such the users (real live people, living very different lives....), IMHO, need to know what support they will have.

But Ron, Torchy does raise some valid points and I and many others would like to know if all this new Piazza stuff that you must have been working very hard on for a long time is also the reason you decided not to open a sub forum.

It's not that I don't trust you or your motives - I've always seen you as a decent bloke - even for all the arguments you and I have had in the past, but surely you are aware of what has happened here in the last week or so and will understand why so many (not just me this time) were "up in arms" about the subforum. If you knew you were doing this and "moving us to Venus" and that is the reason you didn't set a subforum up - then why not let us know and so much could have been avoided?

I'm not saying that this was the reason you didn't set up the subforum - but it would be good to hear it straight from you - one way or the other.

Moving on - I've only had a quick look, but it seems a valid reason for wanting to join the new venture has to be given and then you and your team will decide if our (my) "applications" are accepted - which seems fair enough.

Lets get to the point Ron, cus we both know where I'm heading - lets say for example members like me apply - will the applications be accepted by you and the rest of the team if this really is to be a "fresh start"?

Another question if I may - if you accept membership from people lets say, like me, then will the past really be left behind and will "people like me" be handled in exactly the same fair way as everyone else will be dealt with - without the past tainting views or influencing new judgements not only of you and your team, but also of every other member?

Will AbC be able to restrain themselves from calling JC an elephant so that I dont feel the need to call them a pig in return? I can do it - but only if others really can do it too. I can let the past fall away as if it never happened - but can everyone else and even if they can - will they?

So, lets say you accept membership from "someone like me" and lets say "someone like AbC" calls me an elephant in the new place and I lose my temper and call them a pig return - which one of us would get the ban?

If you take the problems that exist here with you to the new place - will you also take the same solutions? If you do that then nothing will change and if AbC calls me an elephant - then there is nothing more sure than eggs are eggs that I will call AbC a pig in return.

Your answer may be to say to "people like me" don't apply to join and my reply to you would be that you are biased and unfair not to accept my application while accepting the application of "people like AbC".

If you do reject JCs application over AbC's application then you and your team would be condoing the behaviour of AbC and showing that it is acceptable for them to call JC an elephant, but not acceptable for JC to call AbC a pig in return.

How do you propose to deal with problems such as this in the new Piazza?

Final questions from me - and you know why I am asking - because I am sure you have read the relevant threads in the Mods Corner.

Am I correct in assuming (from what I have read so far) that the provision of a PM box is not an automatic facility that anyone will have from the beginning and that the provision of such features will have to be " earnt" by some type of merit system?

What criteria needs to be met in order to be "rewarded" with the priviledge of a PM facility - will it be awarded for, lets say, the number of posts a member produces - or will it be awarded soley on the quality of the posts a member produces?
.
I hope to hear from you on all these points as I feel sure they are relevant to many "members like me" who will want to know exactly what they are signing up for before they finally decide to apply or not.

New Community

Firstly Thank you Ronald for this update as to what is happening. I, along with others, wish very much you had done this earlier and not promised a sub forum you never intended to provide.

However I am going to try and make this as positive a post as I am able to in the circumstances and I very much hope it is taken in the spirit in which it is intended.

I have been a member of this forum for three years. I have learned a lot in that time and not only about Italy.

When I was very new and did not know how things happened here, I got savaged by an established member, I didn’t report it, I didn’t sneak around in the shadows, I gave it straight back. From that time on my cards were marked here. As it happens I now know this person in the real world and I really like him, he is outspoken too but he is honest.

Anyway I travelled on and watched what went on.

I came to the conclusion that this forum was badly managed – and said so.

I also noticed that the resident police force was biased, partial and out of control, and I said so.

I am outspoken, I loath and despise injustice, especially injustice brought about by prejudice - preconceived ideas and closed minds.

I can look after myself and I’m not the timid victim type so I do understand why at times others have been allowed to abuse me without sanction, I don’t really care.

What I have cared about is watching a really good resource (not the forum but its members) and their goodwill, knowledge and intelligence be squandered by a regime that can neither understand nor control what has been happening.

I am glad that Italy Mag forum, as it is now, will be closing. It has a bad reputation on the internet and I know of many people who have stopped buying the magazine because they don’t like the forum so as a marketing tool it is counter-productive.

Now all that is finished, water under the bridge and there is to be a fresh new start.

I have read carefully the new registration agreement.
I can see that ‘full and accurate profiles’ is a measure to try and stop the people they don’t want from joining in disguise, I appreciate and understand the reasons for this.

So if Satan joins under the name of The Angel Gabriel, and Ronald can see that it is Satan’s IP address, he will stop that registration.

But if Beelzebub joins as Saint Michael with an unrecognised IP address, he will be welcomed on board.

So really the ‘new’ start is just a mass banning of anyone that the present regime does not like/want.

IMHO it will not work. It is merely an extra challenge. The more devious people will still get in. It is not who is a member but how the members are managed that will make the difference. NO regime throughout history has ever succeeded by getting rid of the people they don’t like.

So I think there will still be problems and the governance and policing, which I believe has been a major contributor in all the old problems, will not have changed. The problems will – after a honeymoon period -resurface and unless there is ‘regime change’ everything will be exactly the same.

I shall not bother to join the new forum – I live in Italy now – I have a good support network of friends here and I have other (IMHO better) forums to use. I have no desire to go through all this again –same sh*t different piazza.

I would however offer a positive suggestion.

Put in place a moderator, who does not use the ‘community’ as a member. When there is a dispute and drastic action to be taken, put the offending posts (both action and reaction) to this person without identifying the parties involved. Then let them be judged on their content and not on the personalities who posted.

Apply the rules evenly, across the board, if there are two members who continually cause problems, ban them BOTH. Don’t take sides. All that does is empower the aggression of one party, upset others and allow the dispute to escalate and suck in more members.

Once a decision is made, be scrupulously honest about the reasons. Half truths and lies always surface in the end and serve only to create disrespect.

Anyway I hope that the new ‘community’ is a success and that members continue to offer good and accurate information.

I wish you all well and I am (as others no doubt are too) relieved not to be coming with you.

12441 News

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