12481 Arrivederci

See ya Goosey Gardener. I applaud your stance and hope to meet you in cyberspace. I intend to plug on with this one to the bitter end but may do the odd post on the new one and maybe on an alternative. I never really got into this forum until last winter, had the occasional dabble over the years. I think that it has improved greatly, loads more general chat, a certain amount of nonsense and much less blatent advertising.
I hope that the new one will develope in a similar way but without the bullying. A change has already been noted with the fund raising group being created. I don't know about you but my default setting is "shattered". 2 weeks of great weather and I've caught up. My arms are dropping off after long days of strimming. Swimming pools are opening. Life is good! Hoorah

Hi Big Oak and all the other Friends I have made here over the last 3 years.

Like you, and Aunty P and loads of others, this is a sad time - just as we got some community spirit going - it vanished!

So it was great being part of this forum, especially over the last few weeks, when I think some of us got to make friends as well as raise money for the Abruzzo earthquake appeal.

Good to see our long-asked for earthquake/good causes sub-forum is already up and running in the Piazza Nouva. Will it have the same feel, can't answer that yet, but I hope so. Also that piazza users are treated with respect for the wealth of information that they freely give.

So Goodbye, Ciao and Arriverderci.

Best wishes to all and maybe we'll meet in another cyberspace piazza...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WQ6Q_65qck]YouTube - So Long, Farewell[/ame]

Hello - I just wanted to say that I appreciate where you are all coming from. Change is difficult and I am also sad to see these forums go - it is especially unfortunate that change came during a moment of arguing but the fact is that we wanted to do this for a very long time and have spoken about it in the past.

We haven't actively been working on it for a very long time (maybe just 10-11 days) but we have been planning it for some time and things like the Abruzzo fundraising group was just one of the triggers that made us say "we really need to get things into the new structure".

We didn't want to announce it before people could sign up because we did not want this to be just another announcement that might not materialize as has happened in the past (sometimes you want to do something but life and other crisis take over so announcing something that does not exist is a risk) - but probably it was the wrong decision.

In the meantime things got complicated by the fact that I was first ill a few days then on a sudden trip and people got all worked up and started revolutions and coups and strikes - and things just went downhill.

The other level is that when the "revolutions" start it is even harder to post anything because I am very different. I would simply switch channel, move on or as Ghianda says take my business elsewhere...

I don't believe in the "these are forums don't confuse them with real life" opinion. I spend a lot of time online so for me forums and websites and the discussions I have on them are part of real life. So I do expect people to get upset and get angry. But in real life if a shop attendant does not serve me well I buy from a different shop, if a restaurant is slow to serve my food I don't go back, if someone hurls abuse or I believe they are acting unreasonably I walk away. I don't hurl abuse back, I don't attack. And most other people don't either or we would be in a right mess.

Again kudos to Ghianda for saying "I am leaving because the management is the same" - an absolutely fair point. He is not happy with management he moves on. He doesn't set up fake accounts, keep complaining about how bad management is and how banning is imminent because of what they just said (while no-one was banned for ages on the forums), etc. He just moves on.

Some people have clearly said that while they were not happy with the way these forums were run they were willing to give things another shot. I can only thank those people and hope to meet expectations or at least provide more clarity in why things are/will be done in a certain way.

Since I "inherited" these forums there was never really that passage that said "look, here is the deal" - and in the four years I've managed the website I've switched between trying to impose a new order and accepting that my order is not the order a very vocal group here wanted.

A small group want to be able to fight, insult, and not be banned. They like to retaliate, they like to escalate situations. They believe that if they believe they are in the right that justifies any subsequent action on their side because they are in the right - as in "if you scratch my car I will burn yours - then since you started it I expect you to be punished severely while I am forgiven". If you send them away once they will come back (anyone seen anastasia :smile: ). End result was that I did not spend a lot of time on here and people like tuscanhills, Marc, garda, cassini, piedmontphil and all the other moderators did an amazing job of keeping things together. Also thanks to the many many members who did not make this place a horrible place - but contributed positively and kept out of the arguments.

So there you have it. The new piazza is now here - we as community managers are happy with what can be done and we know we can improve it much faster than we could ever improve these forums. The new structure gives members much more freedom, is better for us to manage as it standardizes with the rest of our tools, etc. The old argument of "this is not what we signed up for" is not there - fresh, clean slate and if you leave because you don't like what we are doing then at least it is clear.

I do hope people not happy with the situation will just take their business elsewhere and not waste their precious time in what they clearly consider a bad place to be in and I do hope we will not disappoint the people that have/will join the new community.

I also think this is probably my last post here regarding forum life. I will follow discussions here where they relate to questions about the new community and will try to provide answers to that if I think I can make a positive contribution.

For me it isnt in the slightest bit sad, as I have said before for me the present forum had not been a good place to be. We did great things raising money for the earhquake victims, but will continue to do this in the new community, as it is many old friends "virtual" and real have already joined, and I think it is exciting to do something new, and have a much more postive approach to our life in Italy and to doing what we do so well, and will continue to do so, give information, advice and support,
A

Ronald

I want to say thank you for your last post and also to tell you that it makes me really very sad indeed.

I was going to write something pithy but I don’t think you understand me at all.

You don’t like me and that’s fine but at one time I really cared about this forum, I know you see me as a complainer and I suppose I am but what you have chosen not to see is that I have tried to show you not only what has been wrong but why it was wrong and what could be done to correct it.

My posts and polls were the ones, which clearly showed that the forum was and wanted to be a community. I did nag but only because you ignored everything I had to say.

It appals me really that even though we have spoken to one another on the phone and you clearly know exactly who I am, you failed to communicate this to your moderator Marc who made a silly mistake because he thought I was male, If you can not even communicate with the people you place in such positions of trust what hope is there for anyone else.

I have said from the start that I will not be joining your new community and your post confirms how right I feel about this.

You may have all sorts of new technology, whizzy knobs and dials but it will still be people using it, people with all their imperfect foibles and unforgiving natures.

I have learned a tremendous amount from being a member of these forums but and I say this with true sadness, you have not.

You won’t listen but I’ll say it anyway, because I speak the truth and from the heart. Get someone else to run the forum, accept that amongst your many and varied skills, that of ‘communicator/ peacemaker’ is not one. You may well be technically brilliant no doubt but you really don’t know how to cope with people and a community IS PEOPLE.

If you still don’t understand what I mean, try to watch an episode of QI. Watch Steven Fry and how he deals with the shows off the wall, exuberant celebrities, with good humour, good grace and intelligence, He is always in charge but never stifles the debate and is able to steer it back ‘on topic’ without offending anyone, I couldn’t do it and I accept that. I don’t think you can either, so please accept it too and get someone with the right PEOPLE skills to run the Community.

Bon voyage

Carol

Carol (Nielo) and Ghianda. I enjoyed very much your posts and our discussions. It is your decision what you are going to do in the future and perhaps some time for reflection will help you to find your way. I am sad that this Forum that I loved so much is disappearing, but nothing is permanent and its existence was beyond my control. I will try to put into the new Community the same effort and I wish that you will join in the future. Carol, I tried to send you a PM, but it was not possible.
Best wishes,

Gala,

Nielo and Ghianda are not lost souls so they do not "need to find their way". They have already made a carefully considered decision and are walking away through their own free choice. Many things are beyond your control Gala - accept that Mother Superior couldn't do anything about what has happened here - no point in wringing your hands in dismay or having a guilt trip - some people just aren't cut out for certain things - especially if they inisist on sitting on the fence.

JC, I am not wringing my hands in despair because I am very happy. Simply, I joined the new community and I am enjoying it. As for sitting on the fence, I would not call it that way,but it is your interpretation of my attitude and you are entitled to it. In spite of the fact that I was publicly insulted without a motive in your own forum - and I am not saying that you can insult anyone even if the person gives you a motive - I tried very hard to help and to find solutions to situations which were beyond my control. No guilt trip for me, I did not provoke any unpleasantness, on the contrary.
All these unnecessary discussions and attacks are starting to sound like "sour grapes".

Erm.. perhaps you misunderstood me Gala?

I believe you have tried your very best to put yourself forward as a 'mediator' on many occasions recently - even when at least one side of the parties involved quietly, politely, respectfully and patiently said you would be unable to bring both sides to the table. You insisted several times you were prepared to try to be the peacemaker.

Eventually, you had to gracefully admit that your attempt to smooth ruffled feathers had failed dismally and that your intervention had in fact, been counter productive because "the other side' had been very rude to you when you had broached the subject with them.

Now, it wasn't me who was rude to you Gala was it? :no:

I have never even suggested you provoked any unpleasantness or that you were not trying find solutions to situations, but as you have said - they were solutions which were beyond your remit.

However, if you were "publicly insulted without a motive in your (my) own forum" then I have no knowledge or memory of it - as until very recently, Italiauncovered has been a dormant forum for a VERY long time.

If you point me in the direction of the public insult - if it merits deletion or editing, you have my word, I will do so instantly. :yes:

Dear Gala,

I for one enjoyed your posts in the headquarters thread, it was nice to see your fun side. I wish you health and happiness wherever you chose to lay your hat. :smile:

Although a very new member of the forum it has given me untold hours of amusement and pleasure and I am [B]very[/B] sorry to see it go. Somehow many of you became a sort of 'cyberspace family' to me:yes: and it saddens me that I'm now being taken into care.

To think that some of you blokes (JC, Nielo etc) were actually blokesses:bigergrin:!

However the world moves on. Thank you, one and all, for enriching my life:yes:. The earthquake appeal was awesome.

Perhaps we'll meet again in a different forum and/or under a different name. I do hope so.

Ci vediamo, Cinghers

PS If you know where I can find any defenceless hamsters (or Spanish rabbits) please let me know

[quote=Cinghiale;121506]Although a very new member of the forum.....

Ci vediamo, Cinghers

PS If you know where I can find any defenceless hamsters (or Spanish rabbits) please let me know[/quote]

Sorry to correct you, Sir, but I am not Spanish. I am an Australian born rabbit, a former Singaporean and UK resident and on my way to become an American resident. I am temporarily in Spain, but I must hurry up my departure as I have been told that they make "paella" with cute rabbits like myself.

JC, what's done is done. Thank you for your offer but I am not worried at all by what may remain of those insults in your Forum. They were pointed out to me by other members and they took place around the same date when you were suspended or deactivated from the Forum. I was originally offended but nowadays I could not care less. If you find them, it will be a nice gesture if you could delete them. Otherwise, don't worry. What's done is done.
I am sorry to see how all this has ended up.

[quote=Gala Placidia;121507] I have been told that they make "paella" with cute rabbits like myself.[/quote]

And to think, when I was in Alicante last year, I thought it was chicken:wideeyed:!

Ps Good luck in the USA.

[quote=Lollita;121492]Dear Gala,

I for one enjoyed your posts in the headquarters thread, it was nice to see your fun side. I wish you health and happiness wherever you chose to lay your hat. :smile:[/quote]

Just to add,

Gala, if you have things to resolve, things that need saying, now is your chance, our time here on this forum is ticking away, please don’t walk away without closure – as our American friends would say.

There is always a place for you at my table wherever I might live.

Ciao.

[quote=Gala Placidia;121508]JC, what's done is done. Thank you for your offer but I am not worried at all by what may remain of those insults in your Forum. They were pointed out to me by other members and they took place around the same date when you were suspended or deactivated from the Forum. I was originally offended but nowadays I could not care less. If you find them, it will be a nice gesture if you could delete them. Otherwise, don't worry. What's done is done.
I am sorry to see how all this has ended up.[/quote]

That may be true Gala - what's done is done, but I don't like the insinuation that I've insulted you - so I have done a thorough search - and you are indeed correct - I found one single post where you were insulted.

However, it was not I who insulted you - it was not me who called you (please excuse me) "a Spanish cow" it was someone else and I actually had a good go at that person in your defence - perhaps you don't you remember that? :no:

I have also looked at the date of that post and I see that I did NOT even own the forum at that time - so, Im very sorry, but it really was absolutely nothing to do with me. I am not responsible for anything any other person posts - on this forum or on a forum that I did not own at that time and it is very unfair of you to suggest otherwise - especially when I was the one who defended you!

JC, I never said that it was you, personally, who offended me, but it was your forum. And "thank you" for repeating the insult in this Forum. Anyway, many members knew about this and they were the ones who warned me. And sorry to contradict you, but publicly you did nothing about it at the time. You may have done it privately, I give you the benefit of the doubt.
Good bye JC, you have talent and intelligence. Just use them wisely.

[quote=Gala Placidia;121514]JC, I never said that it was you, personally, who offended me, but it was your forum. And "thank you" for repeating the insult in this Forum. Anyway, many members knew about this and they were the ones who warned me. And sorry to contradict you, but publicly you did nothing about it at the time. You may have done it privately, I give you the benefit of the doubt.
Good bye JC, you have talent and intelligence. Just use them wisely.[/quote]

Gala, I don't know why if you knew all about this before, you have chosen now to bring it up at the time of your leaving,.
You joined JC in a laugh and a joke on a long thread here up till last week, so if this insult (not by JC, and not her forum at the time) happened a long time ago, why did you choose the time of your leaving to raise it again and take offense.
Would you blame ronni for something that marc said on this forum, BEFORE ronni was in charge, I think not as it would be unfair, unreasonable and unjustified.
Gala, I wish you luck on your new site, I would think it better for you and all just to leave this one with dignity, rather than do as annec and others are choosing to do, by starting another conflict and a trying to leave wih rancour and a parting shot.
Remember Gala you were joking around with JC just last week, and she has done nothing vto change that since.
God I cant wait for all the members of the Piazza to leave and only post over there if these are their goodbyes.
The[B] real[/B] troublemakers are all scuttling across, but I stated before they will miss us, [I][U]and they seem to do so already !![/U][/I], dont make yourself one of them Gala because you are better than that:yes::yes::yes::yes:
As your signature used to say "Go in peace" and I mean that sincerely.

[quote=Gala Placidia;121514]JC, I never said that it was you, personally, who offended me, but it was your forum. And "thank you" for repeating the insult in this Forum. Anyway, many members knew about this and they were the ones who warned me. And sorry to contradict you, but publicly you did nothing about it at the time. You may have done it privately, I give you the benefit of the doubt.
Good bye JC, you have talent and intelligence. Just use them wisely.[/quote]

Che cosa vuoi che io faccio Signora?

For the last time - IT WAS [B]NOT[/B] MY FORUM AT THAT TIME AND I DID DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT - I ACTUALLY DEFENDED YOU.

Why are you so insistent that I am to blame for this?

You're indignant behaviour about it now is laughable and to place the blame on me for something someone else did, is pathetic.

This is almost like when you recently pushed and pushed through PM and within the Rat & Parrot Group - trying to persuade me (and others) that you were 'the chosen one' to be a mediator - absolutely convinced you were right - only to have to admit later you were completely wrong and that your attempt with 'the other party' had in fact been 'counter productive.

Thank God I resisted your offer to meddle if you insist on holding such a warped view on things! For you to allow something like this to fester away inside you for so long and let your bile surface now in the wrong direction - sickens me. It's nothing more than zucchero amaro on your part.

Goodbye to you too Gala - keep yourself happy - post some more Googled recipes or something - but get off my back about this - or I may find myself agreeing with the insult.

As the title of this thread is Arrivederci i just wanted to say goodbye to all. I haven't been very active here in the last few years but for those that have helped me, or those that i have helped i wish you all the very best for the future.

To Italymag:

I came across you site a few years ago whilst searching for information about Italy (in English).

I think this site is too geared towards those wanting to retire or promote the sales of houses in Italy. Not every foreigner that lives in italy is here to purchase property.

You know one thing that really makes me feel sick is that there are people in Italy loosing their jobs every day that can't claim unemployment benefit or get any help from the government during these crazy times. They have no money, they strive to pay bills and rely 100% on their family supporting them.

When i look at the front page of Italymag i see a picture and article of what kind of property you can buy in Italy for 120 thousand pounds (or thereabouts)

This site fails to provide information about the reality of Italian Life and how hard it is for many. (even in the north there is no work. once a very industrial part of italy has just come to a standstill)

I know it does not look good for your buisness to promote negative things about a country but this is the reality of life here. Its not all la dolce vita as you heavily promote it. Don't get me wrong, i have lived and worked in Italy for a very long time and i am keen to stay here for my personal reasons but adding some truths about italy could also help anyone wanting to move here and understand the country more.

For those reasons and they are my own personal reasons i wish you the very best with your plans for the future with italymag. I'm not interested in any private Piazza club. I only need to walk out my front door and i have real Italian life there in front of me. The real Piazza where people discuss the goods and the bads of this country.

Take this a constructive feedback:

This site needs to offer more to those who live / work here. You could at least provide up to date static information on common questions such as:

Residence
Permesso
Driving License
Employment
Health

All of this information can be found in the forums (that you are closing) but as you are a mag i would of thought at least you would publish the facts regarding these matters and include a link from your frontpage.

Anyway, for anyone who wishes to contact me your welcome to join me at the website in my signature.

All the best and i wish every single one of you the very best.

Chill

[quote]..... End result was that I did not spend a lot of time on here and ...............[/quote]

ronald, that is an absolutely amazing remark for an employee to make.
It was your job as the admin to spend time here ! whether you liked it or not.
Many people don't like there jobs, workmates or boss, but they still go to work and don't skive off leaving it to their subordinates as you admitted you did.
" I don't want to go to school today mummy as I don't like it"
You ought to get down on your knees and thank the Lord that you don't and/or didnt work for me with an attitude like that.
I really cannot believe that I read in your post, this garbage of an excuse for inaction.
"The men are ready for action sir, and lieutenant Carruthers will lead them if you wish to stay hiding under your cot"
Boy oh boy, its no wonder that your favourite members were running this place with your mods approval, and an attitude like that bodes ill for the "piazza"
If I wrote that I would start praying that my boss doesnt read the forums.:GEEK:

Awww, Chillout. That was an awesome post. You and I both know that there has been a niche for a serious information based 'Italian for foreigners' site, and you really cut the mustard with your site. The problem was that your site hardly ever got any queries from 'newbies' - whereas Italymag got those queries. There were many contributors (to ItMag forum) who really liked to demystify stuff: but since 'we' rarely got 'red triangled' we did not appear on 'the management's' radar.

Now Ronald has told us that 'the people at la dolce vita show' were not talking septic tanks or geothermal heating - and he would rather be with those folks (to borrow a phrase from George W). So, unless you introduce a weddings or pop music forum, you are dead in the water. It is a reflection on life as we know it, and I don't like it. But - come on over to [url]www.italiauncovered.co.uk[/url] and maybe there could be a good synergy.