40 Highly recommended builder

Hi M.Collins
It sounds like you used the same a builder as me! And I also found Marco to be very efficient, well priced and above all he speaks english, so helped hugely with the electricians and plumbers etc etc, I couldn't have done it without him. I am now looking forward to the new patio he will be doing later in the year!

Issy.

Read you post with interest. We are moving to le Marche in the summer and currently having to have a friend translate everything for us from the builder. I'd be grateful for Marco's number.

He also finished on time! No offence to any other builders out there, but it seems to be a miracle if you find someone who does exactly what they say they will do, and in the time they say they will do it, I think any of us who have had experience of builders, know how frustrating it can be when your man doesn't turn up, or is forever delayed, stuck in traffic etc etc, I only wish I'd known of Marco when I was in the UK!

i would be pleased to have his
phone number or adres.

do you think it is wise to put on the
web site. ??

regards

evert

[QUOTE=issy]He also finished on time! No offence to any other builders out there, but it seems to be a miracle if you find someone who does exactly what they say they will do, and in the time they say they will do it, I think any of us who have had experience of builders, know how frustrating it can be when your man doesn't turn up, or is forever delayed, stuck in traffic etc etc, I only wish I'd known of Marco when I was in the UK![/QUOTE]

In response to Issy’s comments…no offence taken! You will find that there are a number of equally competent and professional builders capable of running renovation projects on time and on budget.

[QUOTE=Charles Joseph]In response to Issy’s comments…no offence taken! You will find that there are a number of equally competent and professional builders capable of running renovation projects on time and on budget.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure that ther are many builders capable of running on time and on budget as Mr Joseph implies, however, the "budgets" quoted by most anglo-italian companies are excessive, and I speak from considerable experience. They seem to charge for the luxury of communication, whereas Mr Caldon, most definately doesn't. We, who speak little or in some cases no italian, are unfortunately fair game to some, and I speak of english speaking builders aswell as locals, the fact is that Mr Caldons prices were more than fair, his work more than acceptable, and no charge was made for the luxury of him being able to speak english.

That’s a fair comment and in some cases people do end up paying far more than have budgeted for.

However, as far as the price is concerned it depends what you mean by fair. Anyone who thinks they can get away with cheap renovation projects… think again! Cost will vary depending on the size and condition of the house, what you want to achieve and your budget. Renovation projects are more costly than new builds because of the artisan and skilled input involved. It is one thing to demolish and build from scratch…it is another to skilfully reclaim materials and restore a building to its former glory.

The average market price of renovation/restoration work in the Marche is around € 750 to € 800 per square metre. This (excluding the cost of a swimming pool and landscaping) gives you a beautiful, habitable property with a high quality, traditionally rustic finish in keeping with the local environment. If on the other hand you have purchased a pile of bricks or a property that is structurally unsound requiring a major renovation project, then be prepared to spend € 1000 to €1100 per square metre. You can expect projects requiring less work (just the shell of the house) to be in the region of € 400 to € 500 per square metre.

In my experience in reviewing a number of cases where we have been called in to sort out other builders’ mistakes, I have been surprised and concerned to note that many of the problems were caused because:

There was no formal contract between client and contractor
Most people underestimated the amount of money required for the renovation work
The client paid cash without receipts or invoices
The builder was not insured
The builder did not comply with local Health & Safety regulations
The builder used unskilled labour
The builder failed to remunerate workers and subcontractors
There was no formal appointment of a Director of Works
The build was more of a DIY job
The work received no prior planning permission or approvals

To many of you this may seem the stuff of soap operas, but people should be aware that projects that are most likely to run into trouble are those where nothing is written down, where the builder is not legal or where the renovation cost is so low that it seems almost too good to be true (the low cost is usually for labour and then you find that on top of that you have to pay for materials, electrical/plumbing/heating systems, windows and doors etc).

That is not to impugn Marco’s standards because I am aware of and respect his professional integrity. What has to be said (and I think he would agree) is that the sector is not without its cowboys. So, when embarking on renovation projects every precaution should be taken to ensure that you:

Are clear about what you want and how much you can afford
Make sure the builder/contractor is legal
Appoint an architect or geometra to be in charge of the project
Include a contingency sum in your budget
Don’t accept a contractor’s best estimate. Insist on a detailed, final price quotation with realistic timescales
Get more than one quote
See examples of previous renovation work with feedback from the client, whether good, bad or indifferent

Don’t go ahead without a proper contract. This should include, among other things, the obligations and duties of both parties, what happens in the event the contractor does not perform the work under the terms and conditions of the contract, the contract price and payment schedule, the completion and the hand-over date and any penalty clauses etc.
Don’t pay everything up front. Stage payments are perfectly acceptable to a reputable builder. You would be well within your rights to retain an amount of the balance outstanding; to be paid only when all work has been finished, accepted and signed off by the Director of Works.

This may be stating the obvious but you would be surprised to note how many people invite builders round, obtain estimates and proceed without a proper contract in place.

I agree with Charles' points but the problem is that it is very difficult to get a fair price out of a builder here.

Almost every builder we have dealt with has told us how they love working for the English as they are all rich. The first thing they do is to figure out where the crane can go (ridiculously excessive and at your expense) and then tell you how none of the beams can be saved and will all have to be replaced. What is meant is "it is easier for me if we use new beams and I can probably sell the old ones for a good price".

Building costs here in Marche have doubled in the last two years. This we know from our own experience and from what builders have told us. Unfortunately, this is mostly due to a combined effect of non-Italians happily paying ridiculous prices for restorations and local builders realising non-Italians will pay those prices. Even our neighbours know this is true. We wanted a quote for a garage and one very nice neighbour said "let me phone for the quote as they will charge you more". We also know of accommodation here that has an English price and a price for Italians with sometimes as much as €200 difference a week!

Sorry to be a pessimist but this is the reality of the situation. This is not to say that I think Italians are trying to rip us off, you could say they are exercising good business sense in a way. We have to take our share of the blame as we have contributed this situation.

This is no complaint about standards of work or "dodgy" builders. They exist the world over.

Thank you Penny for making such a valid point.

As the demand for properties increases, so do the renovation costs. But costs are no different to France say, where the figure varies between 400 and 2000 euro per square metre.

I think the same can be said of house prices. Less than five years ago, contadini would almost give away their derelict rural property rather than keep it. Now the perception is that the "rich Brits are coming" and so the price goes up. That is why you will see the same property being offered at diffferent prices by different agents. But this seems to be happening all over Italy.

As Penny points out as we have contributed this situation and therefore must accept our fair share of the blame.

ok ...... you have bought a derelict property and it most cases more fool you...because you could get a completely new building for much less than it will cost to restore it......

when mr joseph writes about written contaracts... we know a couple ...they signed nothing.... they are now being sued by the agents architects for proposed loss of earnings for e28,000 ..... they have only submitted palns which were turned down as no good...they are from ancona.....

written contrqacts here mean nothing..... they have penalty clauses as in the uk but none of the builders,architects or whatever are to worried.....
they just wouldnt pay them...

your best proposal is local knowledge.... this is why if you have any sense you will pay the extra for a habitable building...get to knbow the locals and then get the comforts you want installed.....

to tell you the honest truth it makes me sick to read about all the problems people have...the rip offs.... the stupidity of it all..... if you buy here its the same as anywhere it will cost a lot of money if you buy a ruin.... it will cost even more if you go thru the system.....

get a house you can live in....make friends with your neighbours.... make friends with the mayor and his team of local planning officers....what will a meal cosy....e200.... spend that with the mayor and see how things can get sorted.....

i have never heard of an italian getting all the things done the way some might suggest...... when in italy do as....

just learn better...

remember all the help offered her has a price tag...... i might get sick of hearing marco mentioned but if he can do the job...use him.... its better than any regulated foolproof method...because it just does nort exist here

how do i know...we have been thru it....from architects reccomended by agenbts to choosing our own.... we sacjed our own...she wouldnt listen....we payed e5000 for the privilege...she was a director of works....

the agents one wanted us to install god knows what and had people visiting to review this and that... when we worked out solar panels would not do that well on a north facing shaded roof area we sopped listening.....

penny i will ask our geometra ...italian and fair... how to resolve your beam problem.... to everyone else.... if you have heaps of money follow the safe and expensive charles joseph route... and even then it might not work.... ask him how many succesful cases of builders problems have ever been resolved in the courts.... ie none....

to marco... if you are as good as they say then you will be very busy....

and to all prospective buyers...ignore the ruin bargain and buy the habitable one down the road

and finally we are paying around e200 per m sq... and our builder is the best

and also we have accomodation here locally which is e18 - e 21 per person per night... and its exactly the same for italians or whoever

Blimey!
Been away for a few weeks and all sorts happen!
Many valid points from everyone in my opinion.
Costs of course vary on the type of work/finish/spec required. Certain things can be charged per square metre, salvage of old materials is a time consuming job, and requires a different kind of patience than demolition and re-build. The list goes on. The way italian builders do things may vary to a certain degree from the way an english builder would do things, but in the end we are all constrained by building regulations no matter where you are, even if some may seem excessively cautious.
I appreciate the compliments of my work very much..thank-you.
The best advice I can give without rambling on and on.....is be sure what you want when you ask your builder for a quote, changing your mind half way through works IS your right, but can end up costing you, if you have bought a "ruin", maybe a case of making it safe and a section habitable before the final interior/exterior decisions are made. Start with any structural/roof work, and then make your decisions in the dry! And if you can possibly help it..don't be in too much of a rush, not because we builders are having long lunch breaks (although it can happen), but to be sure that the important decisons for your house are the right ones.
In short - split the job up.
As for prices - do as you would do in the uk, get more than one quote, and go with whatever you feel is the right price/builder for the job.

John…I do fear that you are waffling on a bit. Your argument has some valid points but you cannot assume that everyone wants to buy a modern house and you should therefore try to refrain yourself from shoving your personal preferences down every ones throat.

You do seem intent on insulting people’s intelligence don’t you? The inference underpinning your argument assumes that people buying derelict properties are ignorant hillbillies’ that have, as eloquently put by wishful thinker in a previous post, “just come down in the last shower”.

I don’t know what part of the world you live in or indeed what planet you are on…but people are free to make choices. Moreover, providing people do not cut corners (you seem infer that this is what people should do), renovated properties can represent very sound investments. This is not rhetoric but based on fact. I would be more than happy to verify this.

The fact that your builder is best is neither here or there. Moreover, € 200 per square metre will not, I’m afraid, get you very far in Tuscay, Umbria or the Marche (€ 400 per square metre will just about finish a property al grezzo). I don’t know what you are getting (perhaps you would like to provide us a detailed project cost breakdown) for this amount and can only regard this is the sort of misleading information that people should be wary of.

I also don’t know where you are getting the impression that the route I suggest is expensive. You seem to be missing the point. No one is saying that there is a regulated foolproof method. What I am saying is that frameworks do exist whereby you can protect yourself and so disagree wholeheartedly with your statement about the value of building contracts (we use them on all our renovation projects without complaint from our clients). People should do their homework carefully and make sure their interests are protected before handing over any sums of money.

I also disagree in part with your statement about local knowledge. It doesn’t always work. I’ve met people who have gone down this route only to fall into the hands of disreputable builders and charlatans. So you see…even your method is not entirely foolproof. Personal recommendations from someone who has had a property renovated by a professional contractor who is legal and who does not object to a contract that protects your position is a good start. It may not be a guarantee but at least it is better than nothing at all.

If you are sick and tired to read about all the problems people have...then why don’t you offer some real, sound and practical advice instead of forcing your own biased opinions on everyone else.

charles .. i do tend to waffle....your right.... but the truth is that there are loads of people that come here and take on ruins with no idea of the rules which will stop them doing most of the work them selves...and the high costs

despite waffling i did not suggest buying modern.... however habitable is better than ruin.... because it gives you a valuable breathing space to sort things out.... and allows you to live ...maybe in a building site without having to rent accomodation.... in general habitable means that you get gas/electric water all there... maybe not the most modern.... habitable means that you also can avoid lots of the planning problems that occur when starting from a ruin.....

i do not suggest people are all idiots... but when it comes to buying a rural remote ruin at a good price or choosing the one up the road which is livable in at maybe twice the price or even more ... you will save most probably all the extra money that you have paid by ie... not having to rent... not having to get planning permission... and not having to get new services connected...people are not idiots but often the lower price is attractive... because often the true costs of renovation are not explained and the lenght of time the whole process will take....

i cannot offer true sound practical advise beyond the fact that i do not think that the older house is a bargain ... i do not force anybody to accept my views on this... but a new build will always come in less than a renovation of a ruin.... there are very stillish and pleasant new builds....there is often land waiting for people to buy and build there own ideal place.... the point is ...and again in general... you will have less problems and the running costs should be a lot less in a new building than in a restored ruin...

everyone does have to make a choice.... and no one can help falling in love with a place.... but there are lots of people that after the first year of battling cannot afford to go on any longer with planning proposals and architects and have to give up and return to england often loosing most of the money they have invested

my point about rip offs is that in general ... much as in the uk things here go ahead honsetly and fairly.... the italians manage to do all that the foreigners do without having costly surveys or solicitors.... without several teams of advisers on each stage .... the rip offs of course exist ... but are highlighted here and then make people afraid.... most people that move here when they get to know the locals who always seem amazed that the foreigners want to live here will find that they get lots of help and advice.... and that in general their local trades people will be helpful , fair and honest..... there can be no guarantees of this..... and the price of using a local builder... not a building firm... if you help them will work out at a reasonable amount ....

so a practical piece of advise is never buy anything uninhabitable unless you have tons of money in the bank because it will cost you twice what you had thought it would and take twice the time to do

John…

As you can gather I do like a lively debate, but I would equally state that my comments are in no way personal and trust you do not consider them to be as such. As I said you make valid points but at times I do feel that you can be a little too negative and biased.

I understand your views about people’s romantic visions of a new life abroad. In many cases people like to take on the challenge that renovation provides. The question is are they really prepared for these challenges? If the answer is no then they should consider finding a property that is habitable. The point is that you cannot stop people from making that decision. New builds can be an attractive option but the downside is that some of them are only copies of authentic Italian farmhouses. People want the real thing with real character…but this has a cost. Older properties, once fully renovated, are amongst the most beautiful buildings in the world and make wonderful homes.

The problem, I feel, is that not every one is transparent when selling properties and buyers are not always given all the facts. This is why we get to hear about the horror stories. These are exacerbated by some of the TV programmes, although I have seen some stories featured where everything has gone according to plan.

As far a builders are concerned, my partners have been around for over 20 years and although we are small building company, our guys are all skilled artisans who take immense pride in what they do. The fact that I decided to build a service organisation around the core activity resulted from my own experiences in buying a property a few years ago, not knowing anything about the process and being exposed to some of the tricks that vendors can get up too. It was a steep learning curve and one that gave me a valuable insight into how things are done in Italy.

I too become frustrated when I hear about the problems and that is why I am inclined to tell people how it is. I would rather my clients be fully ware of how much time, energy and money is involved. This equally applies to buying a modern house or even an apartment in a condominio. Sometimes the process can be fraught with difficulty and so it is best to seek independent, professional advice. Surveys are extremely important because if a professional does them properly they can help determine the true value of a property and help avoid costly mistakes. The same can be said of using a good solicitor. I would be more than happy to prove this point to anyone.

Buying and renovating a house in Italy (or anywhere else for that matter) is not for the feint hearted, but it doesn’t not have to be a worrisome or unmanageable task, providing you have the right people working with you in order to turn the dream into reality.

Hi - does anyone have contact details for either an English speaking builder/ electrician or plumber based in Abruzzo - we have a requirement for all so any advice/help is greatly appreciated,

Many thanks,
Mark

abruzzo is a big place...where in abruzzo

Would Marco like a change of scenery and renovate my 2 houses in Abruzzo ----------------- I should be so lucky.

[QUOTE=Kirstin]Read you post with interest. We are moving to le Marche in the summer and currently having to have a friend translate everything for us from the builder. I'd be grateful for Marco's number.[/QUOTE]

Dont all go to Marco - for he is doing our house in San Vittoria for us - and we want him to finish on time - May 2006 - We are going to live in Italy for 6 months in an apartment whilst he does the work - so that I can watch - and promise him not to interfere but be a good 'goffer'. Janet