404 Money, money, money

And also...

Does anyone have anything (good or bad) to say about Banca Carime Spa?

Cheers, Lesley

We transfered money though Barclays (thats our bank here) straight to the agent for the deposit on the villa we are in the process of purchasing. It took 4 working days if thats any help. We are the same as you though about the final balance. Unsure which is the best way to go. We may just do the same as we did for the deposit and send it straight to the agent a week before the sighning and let him pay the vendor direct on the day.

When I bought my place

I allowed about 10 days for transferral of funds to my Italian Bank account [sometimes took less, and never longer]

I didn't need to give them notice for preparing the drafts

Can't remember what they charged - but assume it won't be cheap

Yes - I had to do several drafts of less than 10,000Euros [this apparently is so the tax man is not automatically alerted by a deposit of more than 10,000Euros into someones account] - and these were the type of Bankers Draft that is 'transferable' [so they could be used to buy gioods without passing through the vendor's bank account]. The large draft for the declared value of the house was the 'non-tranferable' type.

Don't know the rules on large cash withdrawals

Just go with the flow!

Many thanks Alan and Neal!

Any other experiences would be welcomed.
I think this is something that a lot of prospective buyers will be interested in (especially how the payment process differs from how it seems to work in the UK).

Thanks for your input,

Cheers, Lesley & Brian

One thing to be careful of if transfering cash to your agent is that he does not do what mine did, and, delay the final purchase while keeping the money in his account, although he'd been given plenty of notice, the promised two weeks from arrival completion did'nt happen, then it was August..., in September, he went on holiday (six weeks !?!?!) we finally completed in November. Fortunately the wonderful family we were buying from said " you are buying, just move in" so we were'nt camping in their yard or anything, ohhh, and, I was using a reputably agency based in England, and, paying them a hefty fee for "professional services". Anyway that was two years ago now, and with a little luck, my ICI tax will be finally dealt with next week...

Hi there, here's my experience for what its worth...

The agent that was selling me the house put me in touch with her own bank. I faxed to the bank the details that they needed to open an account - codice fiscale, name, dob, address etc. Within a day they faxed me back with my account number.

Luckily as I work in a bank in London, sending the money there was no problem, I TT'd the money to my employers account, and the next day when they confimed it had arrived, they sent a SWIFT message to Italy with the funds, which arrived same day. The Bank in Italy confirmed receipt when I asked them the next day.

Another benefit for me was that I got a great rate (.697 or something) and no commission. But I have also sent money to someone else's account through my normal Woolwoch account by TT, which arrived OK, though I think it took 3 or 4 working days.

All accounts now have what is called an IBAN (International Bank Account Number) which is hopelessly long, but if you get this right, the process should be staight forward.

I hope that this helps. Cheers

Sorry, I should have added that when it came to paying for the house, I drew a collection of bank cheques for the vendor (under Eur 10,000 each) and a wadge of cash for the notaio and agent.

The vendor looked at the cheques as though they were moon rocks, but eventually accepted them.

I felt very nervous about carrying around large sums in cash; but it seemed that this was considered normal. They like the feel of cash, my new neighbours......

I think the under E10,000 thing is a money laundering regulation - anything above that must be reported in case it is dirty money being laundered through the banks.

Wishful Thinker,

Thanks for your post.
Interesting to note that the bank opened you an account by fax!

When you say that you paid the vendor by bank cheques do you mean your personal cheques or bank drafts?

And were they payable to the vendor ? Or to yourself to countersign on handover?

And I assume your experience was quite recent?

Sorry for all the questions,
Confused of Cumbria (aka Lesley)

When we purchased our house we used international bankers drafts drawn on a uk bank account. The sellers were a bit suspicious so we went along to their bank with them the day before we were due to sign and their bank verified their authenticity.

We paid the notaio partly by international draft and partly in cash which he was happy with.

We now have an italian bank account to which we transfer money regularly and it takes about 4 w.d. and costs approx £20. I have no experience of asking for a draft in italy. I use cheques and cash.

The nice thing about our bank in italy is that the branch is local and all of the staff know you - like it used to be in the UK years ago!

The cheques were bank cheques made out to the vendor directly. so she was taking the bank's credit not mine.

I opened the account by fax, and completed the paperwork when I arrived in person.

This was possible because in that town (Penne in Abruzzo, pop 12,000) everybody knows everybody else and the agent has a good relationship with the bank manager, so it was probably her intervention that swung it.

In the end one of the cheques was not needed (long story) and when I was last there (2 weeks ago) I told the agent that I needed to have the cheque cancelled. She picked up the phone to the bank manager and made us an appointment for 9.00 the following morning. We waitied about 5 minutes before being let into the manager's office, and she gladly credited the cheque back to my account. No problems (so far).

But, this was after I tried to open an account in London. SanPaolo could not do (hey, this is only the chief financial centre of the world, after all), but Monte dei Paschi would, if I went the the chaps office in the city, which wasn't necessary in the end as the agent sorted it all for me.

So in all these tales of woe (several being mine) something went spectacularly right!

Experience is recent - opened account in January, have wired funds there twice (Jan and April) and have my own little blue passbook.

All a bit different from our UK telesales set-up, but then anyone remember what it was like here 20 years ago?

Cheers

Banking 20 years ago in the UK was good because I used to get 15% interest on my savings account, my TSB passbook was made of real denim, and I got a sticker every time I deposited one pound. Apart from that it was rubbish compared to banking today.

I don't know anybody who has used internet banking or telephone banking for a few months and then said "I'm never using that again". Banking has lost a little of the personal touch it's true, and telephone banking can be difficult some times, but I'd rather whizz through my banking admininstration online, pay bills online, check my credit card balance on the telephone etc, and then spend the time I would have wasted in the bank doing something enjoyable.

I have direct debits set up for everything (most of which I set up over the phone from Singapore). I pay cheques into my bank account by post from around the world. I never pay a single penny in fees except for when transfering money internationally despite having four business bank accounts, two personal current accounts, a few savings accounts, internet accounts, and more credit cards than you can shake a stick at. And, if I want the personal touch I can still go into a branch of the bank and get served quickly and efficiently by friendly staff who remember who I am.

I've always found it strange how people go abroad and accept things that they would never accept in the UK - for example, the p*** poor Italian banking system - and then even manage to find it 'nice'. If every time you went to the bank in rainy Milton Keynes or Coventry the banks were as slow, inefficient, expensive, and unreliable as the Italian banks, I don't think you'd write on the Milton Keynes Magazine Forum ([url]http://www.miltonkeynesmag.co.uk/forums[/url]) how nice it is that the staff are friendly and remember you at your local Lloyds TSB!

...one thing I should add in the defence of Italian banking though is that I once went to a small branch to open a bank account just a few years ago. The manager met me and we filled in the forms, then he asked for my residenza and I said I didn't have one. Oh, he said, then you can't open this bank account, you have to open a foreigners one (with higher fees, loads of restrictions, no cheque book etc etc).
Please can I open the account - I said - I obviously am a resident here because otherwise why would I be opening a bank account. Va bene he said and opened the bank account without even looking at my passport!

Hi,

My international transaction took 2 days and when it arrived my italian bank charged me commission for accepting it......They charge you for everything you do, deposits, withdrawals or whatever and also have a monthly standing charge which is around 9 euros so forget about earning any interest on your account........talk about the bad old days of banking!!

I had to give them 3 days notice to obtain a bankers draft for 40000 euros and as with wishful thinking, when I gave it to the vendor on completion he looked at me as if I was mad and asked 'what's this' ?

How much will your bank charge you? I don't know.

Why withdraw such a large sum in cash? What happens if you lose it or get mugged or get run over or a hundred other nasty scenarios? Be sensible and get a bankers draft.

If you shop around you should be able to find a bank which will let you open an account from here but the bank I used (Unicredit) has now closed it's branch in London, or so I'm led to believe.

Thanks for all the replies.
It's been interesting to read about the different experiences.

I was curious about the prospect of withdrawing cash as it seems to be the favoured currency with Italians (but obviously would be worried to death about the scenarios Flyingveepixie mentions).

And also, as I have been asked to produce a number of bankers cheques (each for less than 10,000 euros) I was a little concerned about the likely charges involved.

So far, it seems, everyone's experience has been unique so there really isn't a 'usual' scenario.

Interesting stuff!

One thing that people haven't commented on is your decision to make the transfer via Barclays. You can do it this way, but it's an expensive way to transfer money. UK Banks will charge you both fees and will also fiddle the exchange rates in their favour.

Since you will in all probability need an Italian bank account, I would get your Codice Fiscale sorted out (you will need this in any case to buy a house) then open a bank account. Once you have an account, transfer the money using a currency broker who will transfer the money without demanding a fee and will also give a better exchange rate than a bank. Brokers also permit you to schedule payments into the future and will give you the same facilities afforded to businesses of placing a future option on exchange or a spot price (your choice).

I have used Currencies Direct [url]http://www.currenciesdirect.com/[/url] for many years and they have never yet let me down. They are *much* fastr to transfr money than my bank. There are also other brokers but I don't have any experience of those.

You can keep a watch on exchange rates here:

[url]http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/fds/hi/business/market_data/currency/11/13/default.stm[/url]

[QUOTE=lotaresco]One thing that people haven't commented on is your decision to make the transfer via Barclays. You can do it this way, but it's an expensive way to transfer money. UK Banks will charge you both fees and will also fiddle the exchange rates in their favour.[/QUOTE]

Hi Steve,
Many thanks for your post. I was thinking of using Barclays mainly as I am supposed to be a 'Premier' customer and have a 'Relationship Manager' and so would have hoped that they would pull out all the stops if things went awry re the transfer etc. And for that I was happy to pay a small premium.
Within the past week or so I have come to realise that the aforementioned quotes don't actually stand for anything. I have been given so much duff information by so many different members of staff that I wouldn't trust them with my piggybank never mind a sizeable (in my opinion) sum.
One person said to me on the phone "I gather you are looking to transfer small sums of money abroad" - obviously my idea of small sums differs to his....
Another in my local branch exclaimed "I've never been abroad so don't really know the answer" and "We don't deal with this very often so we don't have any leaflets".
Yet another (a 40 mile trip from home) told my husband we could open a Euro account over the phone (they did at least have a leaflet). When I tried to do so I was told I had to go into the local branch.
So, in essence, I have given up with them and have registered with XF Solutions and Currency Direct as it seems sensible to go with experts who do international transfers on a daily basis (as well as being cheaper!).
I am heartened that you have had dealings with Currency Direct and can recommend them.
Is there anyone out there with experience of dealing with FX Solutions.
I have already had them recommended to me but would be interested to hear of anyone else's experiences.

Lesley (going greyer by the day)

As an individual you have no need to worry about 'dirty' money. Italy is not alone in checking the flow of money all the banks and building socs in England inform the authorities of deposits and transfers over £5000 (I think that is the current figure).

Lesley,

I've also got a relationship manager associated with my business bank account. In the 2+ years I've had the account I've never found out this persons real name as it seems to change according to the correspondence they send me from time to time. This person has also changed their gender several times in the 2+ years I've been banking with them. He/she has been almost impossible to reach on the phone whenever I've tried and has generally been a pretty useless article in the running of my business affairs, except of course when it comes to charging me for any minor financial misdemeanours. As for special treatment, sure you will get it if it's in the banks interest and they can squeeze a few more pennies out of you, otherwise my advice to you is forget about them and use a currency broker. I used Sterling Exchange Ltd and got an excellent commission free service with a good exchange rate of 1.50 euros to the pound.

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