731 how to buy a ruin here with the costs known.. ???

A large number of people seem to get carried away and commit themselves without actually carrying out any checks or searches beforehand. Much of this stems from the fact that they are lulled into a false sense of security by the vendor and or his/her agent.

Renovating an old property should be a pleasurable and rewarding experience.
Projects that go horribly wrong do so because no prior homework was carried out or because the incorrect advice was given.

You don’t really need the compromesso (preliminary contract) at this stage. You should sort all of these things out right at the beginning. It is really common sense. There are always going to be risks and the aim is to mitigate them. The only effective way to do this is to eliminate the probability of getting caught out by potential pitfalls and clear away any areas of uncertainty.

In short, get yourself some good professional advisers. If you are uncertain about your legal position, a competent commercial lawyer (some do exist) can be worth his/her weight in gold. A proper structural survey can be immensely valuable. Yes, these things will cost… but in the end you will save a lot of time, energy and money. The cost of having professional advice is very small compared to the cost of the investment you are about to make and therefore should be one of your least concerns.

If you have found a property you consider to be a “must have”… then I would start with the proposta d’acquisto. Remember this is usually irrevocable, which means it has a time limit for the vendor to accept your offer. Technically, it does not become a contract until the other party accepts your offer and since it binds (unless you specify otherwise) the buyer until the vendor accepts, it would be wise to insert some conditional clauses to protect your position:

For example:

a) That your offer is subject to satisfactory searches and structural survey
b) That your offer is subject to the parere di fattibilita’ from the local council
c) That your offer is subject to you obtaining a complete breakdown on renovation project costs (including utility installation and change of use)
d) That your offer is subject to you securing a mortgage (if this were the case)
e) That your legal advisor will hold the deposit and only release the funds when all conditions of the proposta have been fully satisfied
f) That the proposta will become ineffective and the deal is off (with no penalty to you) in the event the conditions are not met.

mr joseph...will just say thankyou here for the above posting and the other reply you gave regarding renovation projects on my other posting.... i think both replies basically show a way round the utter confusion of buying ruins with little or no idea of costs and timescales.... and show a way forward that you can buy these properties without having to rely on scanty promises from either agents or vendors on how easy and cheap everything will be if only you buy this or that property.... i still find it surprising that so many people prefer the ruin at the initial lower cost than the already habitable minor adjustment property at the initial higher cost but in general much less costly futuristically... but then all people have their preferences and i would say the above process gives you a good idea of these final costs before you have gone down a road with little option of changing your mind later

This is a great thread and one particularly relevant to my current situation. I hope bringing it back into life will be beneficial to others.

We have taken over 3 months to get our purchase of a ruin checked out by an English speaking Italian lawyer, all the time being pressured to sign the Compromesso by the agent.

Whilst we have had a few minor problems which the lawyer has had resolved and I am now told everything is ready to sign, we do not have anything in writing concerning estimated renovation costs. I only have recollection of a conversation with a local geometra (Independant of the agent) who informed me it would be in the region of 800 EUR sqm.

This last Monday I asked him to write out a rough estimate of costs based on my verbal specification as there is no written project, a very general email came back with an estimate of 1000 EUR per sqm and a margin of error of 20-30% which could mean it costing 1300 EUR/sqm at worst. Obviously I was shocked.

We now have a builder, who has done work on a friends property nearby, going to give us his opinion of the costs. Maybe it will be nearer to that originally thought, however, for the size of the house (250sqm) every 100 EUR over the initial estimate is at a cost to me of 25,000 EUR. For now I am happy I did not give in to the agents harassment!

Hello andy

shouldn'd your lawyer have advised you before drafting the compromesso in relation to any clauses in your favour which may have limited your liability for "wrong" estimated costs? this is what a good conveyancing solicitor would do in England anyway, wouldn't it be the case in Italy as well?! although i am no expert in Italian law! :-)

We are also buying a similar "rudere" in abruzzo and our Italian lawyer gave us a "binding" estimate of the renovation costs but this was a separate appendix which was attached to the compromesso (i think he said that technically this document is a separate contract under Italian civil code). We were originally quoted €900 per square meter but after negotiations, lawyer lowered it to €750 which is more reasonable.

[QUOTE=Laura72]Hello andy

shouldn'd your lawyer have advised you before drafting the compromesso in relation to any clauses in your favour which may have limited your liability for "wrong" estimated costs? this is what a good conveyancing solicitor would do in England anyway, wouldn't it be the case in Italy as well?! although i am no expert in Italian law! :-)

We are also buying a similar "rudere" in abruzzo and our Italian lawyer gave us a "binding" estimate of the renovation costs but this was a separate appendix which was attached to the compromesso (i think he said that technically this document is a separate contract under Italian civil code). We were originally quoted €900 per square meter but after negotiations, lawyer lowered it to €750 which is more reasonable.[/QUOTE]

I'm a little bit confused, but I can't understand why the purchase and the renovation should be mixed in a single contract.
They are 2 separated matters and so 2 separated contracts.
Unless the vendor is an entrepreuner who's selling you "all inclusive" the house and the renovation, the one who sells you the house has no relation with the contractor who's goining to renovate the rudere, so he doesn't care of your future costs.
That's your problem and should be your care to sign not anything before having considered all the costs, as common sense suggests.
In the same way, I find that a lawyer is not able to give estimate of the renovation costs, he can give legal advice, but has no comptence or skill to calulate those prices, that's a geometra or architect or engieer's job.

BTW, the cost here in Marche is about €. 900 per square meter.
I can say it because I've jus bought an old "casale" and I'm starting the renovation: we are on the same side of the barricade

The lawyer can only advise you to get estimates concerning the restoration costs. As the notaio says the purchase and renovation are 2 separate issues. The lawyer really is only there to iron out any problems with the purchase such as pre-emption, checking ownership, rights of way etc. For most of this he/she usually deals with a local geometra. To determine costs for renovation you need to speak to a geometra and unfortunately without the house already having a project agreed, which in Marche seems to be very rare, the geometra seems unwilling to commit an exact or at least a very near figure, especially for a ruin. If you have a project this usually means you have already finalised the purchase and therefore are forced to swallow whatever the renovation costs will be.

Laura, I am not quite understanding your case. Who gave you the estimate of costs at 900 EUR/sqm and how did the vendor then agree to be legally bound for renovations at 750 EUR/sqm. This seems very unusual that a vendor would get involved in such a way as if something happens to push up costs such as a wall collapsing he is then going to be liable for the extra cost. Was this a separate contract with a builder/geometra? If so does it confirm exactly what is being done for the 750 EUR/sqm, i.e. the quality of finish/materials to be used?

hello

sorry for the confusion but I am not a legal guru myself. Our solicitor did say that we were entering 2 separate contracts, one with the vendor called compromesso and one with the building company and he also stated that these 2 documents were not related to each other as the parties to the agreement were different.

Our lawyer also managed to lower the cost per square meter purely because he "went the extra mile" and spoke to the geometra (in Italian, which helps!) and then negotiated a lower price: and yes, the quality of the material and all the rest has been specified in the contract and you are right when u say that the onus of costs increasing will be purely on the building company: isn't that a good deal?! :)

[QUOTE=Laura72]hello

sorry for the confusion but I am not a legal guru myself. Our solicitor did say that we were entering 2 separate contracts, one with the vendor called compromesso and one with the building company and he also stated that these 2 documents were not related to each other as the parties to the agreement were different.

Our lawyer also managed to lower the cost per square meter purely because he "went the extra mile" and spoke to the geometra (in Italian, which helps!) and then negotiated a lower price: and yes, the quality of the material and all the rest has been specified in the contract and you are right when u say that the onus of costs increasing will be purely on the building company: isn't that a good deal?! :)[/QUOTE]

now it makes sense ;)

Definitely!! That's great that you have tied everything in at the outset and found a builder willing to commit to such a contract, you should be very relieved as this doesn't seem to be the norm by a long straw. Well done!! I hope it all goes well. :)