727 Costs for architect/geometra/builders

reading through your posts i think part of the answer to this question you might well have the answer to from mr joseph...

also reading through your posts i get the sense that you might be well starting off on a very difficult and long process and that the book part which in a sense might well help in understanding terminology will be of very little use in actuality....

from your question it seems that every proffesion in italy is lined up to relieve you of some of your money.... best to take a step back at this stage and do a bit of thinking..... hopefully you have not signed any papers yet other than to do with the house purchase ....

make sure you have a very clear idea of what you want done and a very clear idea of what it will cost.... and also when it will be finished

obviously if you have not already finsihed the buying part you may well not have signed any papers regarding the renovation stage... this is where you have to be careful... if you sign with anyone before you are sure about the whole thing ...have written quotations for all their costs ... and completion timetables you may well already be in the situation where you have already appointed a director of works and getting out of that can be very costly... some firms like you to get your signature before they do much more than a sketch plan ... then in a sense they have you very much at their whim... if you pull out they claim a large percentage of what would have been their projected costs for the rebuild... if you carry on they just add to these costs...

be careful about liking anyone at this stage ... they will all be on their best behaviour... may well have bought you several lunches...even invited you into their own house.... i dont know how many times i have heard that story... then the next thing you hear is that they are either doing nothing much of what they promised or that you are being sued because you have found out they verbal estimate of the project costs when put on paper is double ... because they have found that or this extra to do and you have decided not to follow their plans...

i write this because i know of someone... who bought a house via a marche company here in abruzzo .... we met them whilst they were buying their house and they thought they had met a very nice architect... introduced by the geometra and the building firm that was also involved with the estate agent..... this man was also a engineer in england with his own company.... a few months ago we met them...they were being sued for e30,000 because none of the promises they had had made were being undertaken and as i say the verbal quotes had more than doubled... however they had signed a preliminary contract for palns etc....which included the work to be carried out and appointed the geometra as director of works.... the amount on this one is higher than others i have known but mistakes can be costly here....

buy your house... visit the area ... get to know a few people around... marche seems to have quite a good amount of english home owners... several have recomended at least one builder on this site... i think his name was marco... but talk to lots of neighbours first... get to know who does this and that and then choose architect/geometra builder but most important of all do not sign any papers with anyone that does not contain the detailed plans/ the detailed costs / and the detailed schedule ... and most of all at least two independent people who have reccomended them to you

The Testo Unico della Tariffa degli Onorari per le prestazioni professionali dell’Ingegnere e dell’Architetto (Legislation 2.3.1949, n.143) will provide you with an indication of what architects charge for their services.

Project design and management normally comes to 8% to 10% (can go higher) of the total renovation costs. On top of this you can expect a fixed fee that covers the coordination of safety, accounting, work progress and measurement plus 2% (CNPAIA fee that covers their contribution to the National Order of Professional Architects) On top of this is IVA at 20%.

The tariff includes other fees such as reimbursement of sundry expenses and travel costs etc., but you will need to negotiate these. It very much depends on your relationship with the architect and what services you require.

All fees should be clearly spelled out in a document called (which you should receive in Italian with the relevant and correct English translation):

INCARICO PER PRESTAZIONI PROFESSIONALI DELL’ARCHITETTO PER OPERE DI EDILIZIA E DI ARREDAMENTO

Normally when you have decided to go ahead and have signed the agreement you can expect to pay around 10% of the architects total fee to get the ball rolling. The rest is usually paid in stages.

If you appoint an architect and a properly registered building company you don’t need to employ the services of a Geometra to manage the project. Many people seem to fall into this trap, when all that you are really doing is effectively paying more for an additional person. Don’t forget that an architect has more qualifications than a Geometra so if you employ the former, you don’t need the latter.

I fully concur with John’s comments. Don’t over rely on books as they can only provide you with a guideline. Renovating is a big challenge, albeit a rewarding one, but you must to get it right from the very start.

When it comes to selecting builders…you have to take a commonsensical approach:

Be clear about what you want and how much you can afford (same applies when dealing with an architect/geometra)

Make sure that the builder is registered at the local Registro di Imprese and that they are legal and insured. The last thing you want is to have a builder who is not registered and without the proper insurance. If there is an ccident on your site...who foots the bill? Moreover, you have to watch out for builders who employ casual labour without insuring them or participating in the proper NI contribution and paymet schemes etc.

Make sure that you have a proper contract (in both languages) that spells out all the conditions and obligations of both parties.

Don’t go for the cheapest option but make sure the price is fixed and that this is written into the contract.

Don’t pay everything up front. Stage payments are perfectly acceptable to a reputable builder.

[I][FONT=Times New Roman]Thank you both for your replies. Just to clarify, the architect that we would use for the design is a personal friend who we have known for years. He is not located in Marche, however, so it is not practical for him to oversee the building works. We will need a geometra to play this role and have met one who we feel good about. Thus far we have had only very positive experiences with everyone we have dealt with, so we are not approaching this project with a sense of immense concern that anyone will deal with us less than honestly. We just wanted to get information on actual costs that people have paid for renovation-related services (since we have the impression that the books are not always in synch with what actually happens in "real life"). In particular, we wondered what the "going rate" would be in Italy to pay for an architect to do design work (we're assuming that this would not be a percentage of project if the person is not going to manage the project/oversee the work). [/FONT] [/I]

usually the architec's fee is about 10% of the costs of the works.

Paola

[QUOTE=NewToMarche][I][FONT=Times New Roman]We have read as many books as we can find on buying and renovating property in Italy, but there seems to be no clear sense about how much the services of those involved in the project will cost. We will likely have an architect do the design work (we know one who we like) and our understanding is that our geometra will serve as a sort of "general contractor" to oversee the whole project and hire the subcontractors to do the actual building work. We would be grateful for some sense of what to expect cost-wise -- could those of you who have bought and renovated properties in rural Italy already give us your thoughts on what the "going rate" is for an architect's services (percentage or flat rate?), as well as for the geometra, the builders, etc... It would be so helpful to hear about actual experience. Thanks![/FONT][/I][/QUOTE]
Whilst i know of no "books" that would give one up to date info on these costs for the uk!? there are parameters we have some builders at the moment they are being paid the actual rate established by the association of builders of Ascoli Piceno province they are as follows: Euro 22,00 per hour for a builder,Euro 18,00 per hour for the assistant.Tiling is currently quoted at Euro 15-17 per sq. metre.On a complete rennovation job as other threads have indicated one may use as a measure the figure between Euro 800,00 to Euro 1.300,00 per sq.metre as a reasonable estimate of what you may expect.
You may find unregistered builders /non eu citizens/xpats improvising etc etc who may charge less but without guarantees or insurance and in the advent of a control or worse a serious accident the property owner IS involved penally.Architects as has been said are usually around 10% on the total cost of the project.