99 Italian Will - how much?

Hi! My partner and I (unmarried) purchased a house in Tuscany in December 2003, without making wills. We still don't have one, but will probably sort something out soon. I hope it costs less than £1700!! :)

We bought in May 2003 and having a will was never mentioned - are you being told that a condition of the purchase is having to have one?

Only as far as it all gets a bit messy if you dont have one - according to one of the books on buying a house in Italy

Has anyone bought a house as a Limited Company - what are the downsides to this - are you not allowed to use the house for personal use?

The point about wills, as I understand it, is that under Italian law your property will automatically pass to all members of your family. That's why you often find that two,three or more people own the property you are trying to buy, which complicates it no end, especially if they can't agree on a price!

If you are concerned about this, then you will need to make a will to try and establish who you want to inherit your property. I leave it to others to comment on whether it actually works!

There was a very good article on wills in Italymag last year. Perhaps Fiona or Ronald could say which issue. If I remember rightly you have little say over how much goes to whom as Italian law dictates who gets a share.

Our lawyer advised us that the Italian inheritance law is very complicated and that it is usually appropriate to make a will at the same time of buying the house. By doing this, you would only have to pay your (slightly higher) legal fees at once here in the UK rather than having to fork out at least £2000 for a notary in Italy. We have also been told that most of the notary fees are made of taxes which go to the Italian government anyway!

What we have been advised to do is to make a will in the UK with this firm and they will then register it (I am not sure if this is the correct legal term though!) in Italy with a notary for execution. The other advantage of this is that we have been able to include the TOTAL legal costs (not just for the real estate transaction) in the mortgage so we did not have to pay a huge amount of money upfront for their fees.

I hope this helps?

[QUOTE=Laura72]Our lawyer advised us that the Italian inheritance law is very complicated and that it is usually appropriate to make a will at the same time of buying the house. By doing this, you would only have to pay your (slightly higher) legal fees at once here in the UK rather than having to fork out at least £2000 for a notary in Italy. We have also been told that most of the notary fees are made of taxes which go to the Italian government anyway!

What we have been advised to do is to make a will in the UK with this firm and they will then register it (I am not sure if this is the correct legal term though!) in Italy with a notary for execution. The other advantage of this is that we have been able to include the TOTAL legal costs (not just for the real estate transaction) in the mortgage so we did not have to pay a huge amount of money upfront for their fees.

I hope this helps?[/QUOTE]

the notarial cost for a will is about €. 400/500
the italian inheritance law say that the the inheritance of a foreign citizen in submitted to his own law. so a uk citizen will follow hte english and not the italian law

does this mean if i understand correctly that we only need to keep our UK wills up todate and do not need Italian ones as well?

our lawyer said that you will need to have an Italian will to complement the UK ones to avoid the risk of dying intestate. You can do a will with the Italian notary who would charge you about £1500 (most of it is taxes I think) or you can have an Italian will made by a "private deed" and certified by an English solicitor, in which case your will would valid under English law but recognisable under Italian law.

The trouble is finding an English solicitor who will be able to draft, witness and execute a document made in Italian! A will as a scrittura privata has to have some form requirements which apparently are set in the Civil Code but it is as valid as a notary will.

PS: we have been quoted £299+VAT for 2 Italian wills (me and my husband) drafted and executed by our Avvocato and then registered with an Italian notary. Does anyone know whether this price is fair-cheap or expensive? (PS this also includes translation of both documents in English and advice about the clauses which the lawyer has added into the wills to safeguard our interests)

Any views on that?!

yes you don't need an italian will, but you can up todate your english one.
Of course, after your death (far, far, far in the future) your heirs need to comunicate to the italian public records your wills.
Your heirs have to deposit a copy of your english willi, with a translation, and "publicized" it (I can't find a better word in english) before a notary (cost, tax included about €. 1.000,00).
In this way your will can be used in Italy and your heirs can make the "dichiarazione di successione" that is fiscal delaration with whom the taxes for your hineritance are paied.
The tax cost is 3% on fiscal value of your house.
If your heirs wont, but it is not a rule, the "dichiarazione di successione" can be made by a notary, it costs about €. 600,00.

Sorry for my english

Where a UK citizen owns property in another country there are several reasons to make Wills in each country:
1.The Probate Registries in both countries will require the original Will when the person dies and it can't be in both places at the same time.Therefore copies (possibly notarised) will have to be obtained
2.The legal formalities for execution of Wills in the two countries may not be the same so a Will valid in one country may not be in another
3.the law of the country where the death occurs may unlike English law require people to leave a certain share of their estate to their children

and don't forget that though your "foreign" property may be free of inheritance tax in that country it will be probably part of your estate in the UK when you die if you are still UK domiciled

What would happen if I was to die without a will either in England or Italy? Would this mean that I would be "intestate" in Italy as I would in England and the state then gets everything unless my family contests it?

If you die without a Will you die "intestate" but this does not mean the state gets the lot.The law lays down rules as to who gets your dosh.
Use this link (& no, though I am a solicitor, I am not connected with this firm of solicitors)

[url]http://www.youngandpearce.com/intestrules.htm[/url]

What happens in Italy I have no idea but certainly when you can make a Will in the UK for about £100 through a solicitor there is no point in not doing it

[QUOTE=Robert]If you die without a Will you die "intestate" but this does not mean the state gets the lot.The law lays down rules as to who gets your dosh.
Use this link (& no, though I am a solicitor, I am not connected with this firm of solicitors)

[url]http://www.youngandpearce.com/intestrules.htm[/url]

What happens in Italy I have no idea but certainly when you can make a Will in the UK for about £100 through a solicitor there is no point in not doing it[/QUOTE]

Very intersting link Robert!
Of course also in Italy if you die "intestate" (with no testament) the State gets nothing, but your estate goes to your family.
Here some examples.
A person dies and leave:
- WIDOW & 1 SON:
the widow gets 50% and the son 50%.
the widow has the right to live in the house where she lived with her housband.
- WIDOW & 2 OR MORE SONS
The widow gets 1/3 and the sons the rest, divided in equal
- WIDOW & NO SONS BUT PARENTS OR BOTHERS & SISTERS
the widow gets 2/3 and the rest to the others
- WIDOW & NOBODY ELSE
the widow gets all

BTW in Italy there ere not inheritance taxes, you only pay a 3% tax on the cadastrial value of your real estate

[QUOTE=notaio]
- WIDOW & 2 OR MORE SONS
The widow gets 1/3 and the sons the rest, divided in equal
[/QUOTE]

It's interesting to note the difference that inheritance laws make to the land. In the UK the inheritance rules tend to conserve farms as larger parcels of land, even in quite poor rural areas. In Italy the land seems to get forever divided and subdivided into small parcels because one brother cannot afford to buy out the others or they cannot agree to such a course of action.

I can't say which is better, but the Italian pattern does make it difficult to create and manage an inegrated farm with a large plot of land. OTOH Italian farmers produce better tasting food than English farmers.

;) Thanks for all the information - will have to survive long enough to get all this sorted so that there is no confussion when the kids fight over my bones in the future.

Check out Notaio's answers to "UK Legal Costs" re the cost of wills. Very interesting!

You can go by your English will but there are still a number of things you have to do to make sure this can happen. It is important to clarify things as otherwise you may not have a choice who your property goes to on your death. We have just taken an advice which cost nearly 500 Euros and that is only the start of it.

I am interested in understanding this whole issue - having recently bought a property in Italy with my partner who has 2 children. According to a book I purchased "Living and Working in Italy" (Graeme Chesters), "immovable" property in Italy ie. land and buildings, must be disposed of in accordance with Italian law. Italian law gives the immediate family an absolute right to inherit a share of an estate and it isn't possible to disinherit them!

If anyone can add anything to this or confirm/clarify, I would be grateful.

Hi ,
this is the reply I got from our lawyer in Bari, when I asked him if we need to make an Italian Will stating that our Uk will is the one to be used, hope it helps:

I believe that it is not necessary another Will (Italian) to use the UK Will on your Italian properties. Pursuant to the Italian law it is applicable the inheritance law of the nationality of the deceased. One of my English clients inherited an Italian property form his father, British citizen. I assisted the Client to transfer the property form his father to him in accordance to the English Will left from his parent. In that case I had to legalise the UK Will under the Italian Law before the Court of Rome and then I used the UK Will to process the transfer. Moreover, even if you have an Italian Will referring to an UK Will, it does not avoid the duty to legalise the UK Will if you want it to work under Italian law. However, an Italian Will would cost approximately 450/500 euro. Approximately 150 euro for the English translation for your convenience only.

Lawyer on holiday now but we will be seeing him when he is back , so will let you know what final outcome and costs are.

[QUOTE=JulieD]I am interested in understanding this whole issue - having recently bought a property in Italy with my partner who has 2 children. According to a book I purchased "Living and Working in Italy" (Graeme Chesters), "immovable" property in Italy ie. land and buildings, must be disposed of in accordance with Italian law. Italian law gives the immediate family an absolute right to inherit a share of an estate and it isn't possible to disinherit them!

If anyone can add anything to this or confirm/clarify, I would be grateful.[/QUOTE]

The book is wrong.
Your inheritance follows the english law, even for all your italian property (movable or immovable is the same).

Robert concluded his very helpful posting by saying: What happens in Italy I have no idea but certainly when you can make a Will in the UK for about £100 through a solicitor there is no point in not doing it.

For those readers who are trade union members, it is perhaps worth remembering that your union probably has an arrangement which allows you to have a proper will drafted for nothing through one of the union's firms of solicitors.

My partner and I were very pleased to use this service with Thompsons Solicitors and our union, the NUJ.

All I've got to do now (I think) is work out how to have those wills notarised in Italy, so they cover our Italian property too.
rgds
Eddie B

Our English solicitors said that they would not take instructions to draft our new wills to include the new Italian assets because they do not know what is the legislation applicable in Italy for wills. Our Italian conveyancing solicitors adviced us on inheritance law and charged us £150 for the will, including drafting it (we had to hand write it though, and date and sign it before the solicitor) and "notarising" it in Italy.

Where did the previous figures of £1700+ come from?? Or am I missing something here?

forgot to mention...£150 per will!