1373 Dubious Agent

These are precisely the kind of issues that have been discussed in the hypothetical question on pre-emption rights.

Without prejudice to the many agents who are highly competent and professional, there are, alas, a number of rotten apples in the barrel: agents/brokers without licences and other individuals masquerading as real estate and building specialists.

Overseas buyers are easy prey to these individuals and the most disconcerting thing is that some of the worst offenders are ex-pat Brits or other non-Italians who think they can make a quick buck or two.

Don’t be under any illusion…these people are driven only by one thing. To make a quick sale and cash in on someone else’s dream. These people have no sympathy for anyone who doesn’t know the system. For them, overseas buyers are polli da spennare!

As I’ve said before…it is always wise to seek independent and proper, professional advice before making an offer and entering into any binding contract.

[QUOTE=yorkshirelass] if you are buying in this area and want to know which company this is please email me... [/QUOTE]

I'm interested. Can you let me know the details?

Thanks, Derek

I agree with Charles in general, why don't you consider taking this company to Court for fraud?

Since posting this, our current geometra has contacted us and asked us not to disclose any details of the agent yet, as the italian vendor also has some legal issues and the matter is sensitive.
All we can say is that if you are using an agent in th Bagni di Lucca area be aware.
The bogus nature of our document would never have come to light had we not shown details of it to the vendor and to our new geometra. Otherwise, not only would the vendor have believed that all paperwork was in order(because the actual contract makes no mention of the bogus deed) but we also would have believed all was in order because our original geometra acted in our absence under power of attorney.
If there is one piece of advice we would give, it is ask to meet up with the vendor if possible and confirm the details (sale price, what land is included). If you can't speak italian take along someone who can. Don't take what the agent is telling you as gospel.
When we have permission to disclose names we will do so later.

Yorkshirelass,
As a long-term resident of Bagni di Lucca I think I know who you mean. Are their initials JB & MP? Neither is actually a registered agent.

I have recently heard (from two unconnected sources) that someone in the UK is starting a civil action against the UK-based partner and that they are looking for other unhappy customers who might like to join in.

If this person isn't you and you want to know more please contact me by private message and I'll let you know what I've heard.

Best Wishes

David Johnson

Yes, these are the people concerned. That others are considering action only endorses our concerns.
However, as we've said, we cannot mention their name here yet

[QUOTE=yorkshirelass].......However, as we've said, we cannot mention their name here yet[/QUOTE]

Ooooooh! It's getting like Harry Potter!

We are suing in England a firm consisting of an English partner and an Italian partner offering fine homes for sale in Tuscany in the Bagni di Lucca area.
Your case seems very similar to ours where the defendants represented that they were selling to us for 60,000 euros when they were secretly buying the propery in their own name for 45,000 euros, thus proposing to pocket the difference of 15,000 euros in addition to their commission of 2,400 euros.
You can contact us by email at [email]hayden_hall@btinternet.com[/email] or 00 33 545 89 34 05

I've heard about this agent (nothing good) and I haven't even gone through the house buying thing.

Seems like the scam is indeed a consistent activity. I wonder how many others have been conned (likely unknowingly). It's poignant that one of the expressions that the Italian agent quoted regularly was "It's good to trust - but it's better not to". We can see why.
We'll write privately to Eric so as not to prejudice any potential action. It just goes to show that if you want finehomes Tuscany might be the place for you - but not through this agent!

I would like to point out one very important thing that most British and overseas buyers do not often know since procedures are different in different countries.
In Italy to be an estate agent and be able to sell houses you have to be accredited and pass a professional exam, you have to be a member of the Chamber of Commerce where the company registrar is deposited.
Estate Agents are members of a professional body and will have a "patentino", a license to do this job, ask them to show this to you for your own peace of mind. Estate Agents in Italy also have a professional insurance which is now compulsory.
Of course there will be differences in the quality of service that agents provide, some may be more careful to select properties according to client's needs whilst others will try to sell anything they have on their books.
Barmen, B&B owners, taxi drivers and whoever else does a different profession and is not regularly registered as an estate agent are not allowed to act as estate agents, i.e. promote the sale of properties and draft the relevant contracts. So it's best to make sure that the property you are buying in Italy is on for sale through a qualified estate agent, this will also simplify the matter in case of disputes. In addition to this you will also know that you are likely to find help also after the sale and with any property-related issues.

Eliana

We did not know this until recently when a private respondent to our posting pointed out the same details that you have.

Of course when you are in the UK and are looking for the first time, checking out the credentials of an agent isn't the first thing on your mind even if you knew where to check. Many buyers are chasing a dream or ideal and some good sense often goes out of the window when this happens.

We've been told by someone who knows this particular agent that they are not registered in the way you have described. Also that it is not legal for a geometra to act as an agent as there is a conflict of interest.

I know...it's too bad. It also reflects badly on those people who work honestly and play by the rules. I think I may have heard about this person and he and his partner are not too popular in the area of Bagni di Lucca...
What you say is true, a geometra cannot act as an agent, if he is not a registered estate agent. It is true however that many estate agents have a geometra diploma. But they cannot act as estate agents and geometras at the same time since, as you rightly pointed out, it is a conflict of interest. They either are members of the geometras corporation or register as estate agents, you generally cannot do both professions at the same time, Italian law does not allow it.
I hope you'll be able to sort things out with your property, I wish you the best of luck.

Selling properties in Italy comes under the general category of mediazione. Over recent years the legislation has changed and anyone now operating as un agente immobiliare or mediatore is bound by rules and regulations which are set by law. Eliana quite rightly points out that aspiring agents must take and pass an exam before becoming iscritti nel ruolo and obtaining the patentino.

Without prejudice to the countless professionals out there who do an excellent job, unfortunately, this does not always mean a great deal because in many parts of Italy there is, paradoxically, no effective system of governance. Despite every attempt by organisations such as F.I.M.A.A. and F.I.A.I.P to fight abusivismo, it is this very lack of effective governance that accounts for the poor performance of many individuals/organisations.

In some cases there are legal loopholes (to operate under the name consulenze immobiliari is not illegal for example) and you will find some organisations operating from premises in the local high street, competing head to head with the agenzia immobiliare. Moreover, some agents seem to do as they please. The market is fiercely competitive and everyone is out to make money. In many cases it is at the expense of someone else’s dream. The British gold rush mentality and scattergun approach certainly doesn’t help.

In addition to being iscritti nel ruolo and having the right qualifications on paper, a high degree of professionalism, technical competence and integrity is paramount and in my view, must be an important requisite in any area of business.

Charles raises a couple of interesting points about the professionalism and practises of Italian agents. It's quite true there are good and bad registered agents, as elsewhere in the world, although all registered agents in Italy can show their licenses to prove they did at least pass their exams. I think you will also find that most licensed agents are members of one of the two professional bodies, if only because this offers them lower-cost personal indemnity insurance, so hopefully there should be some form of comeback by this route if anything goes badly wrong.

In the case we are discusssing neither partner is registered. Neither is the Italian end of the operation a geometra, although he often seems to often make this claim. I've heard that several local geometre(?) have had a quiet word in his ear about this, perhaps the reason for any unpopularity?

David

unprofessionals agents are really a problem.
I won't add more at what Charles and Eliana have already stressed.
I only want to remind you that people that have dealed with these person have sitll a weapon in their hands, anyway.
The law says that an agent who's not "professional" in the way Charles and Eliana described, has no right to be payed.
So, he/her is not allowed to take action before a court in order to obtain the payment of his fees.

[QUOTE=eliana]I know...it's too bad. It also reflects badly on those people who work honestly and play by the rules. I think I may have heard about this person and he and his partner are not too popular in the area of Bagni di Lucca...
What you say is true, a geometra cannot act as an agent, if he is not a registered estate agent. It is true however that many estate agents have a geometra diploma. But they cannot act as estate agents and geometras at the same time since, as you rightly pointed out, it is a conflict of interest. They either are members of the geometras corporation or register as estate agents, you generally cannot do both professions at the same time, Italian law does not allow it.
I hope you'll be able to sort things out with your property, I wish you the best of luck.[/QUOTE]

Isn't it true though, that in some of the wilder more remote regions there will be no estate agents and a local (bricklayer, surveyor or cobbler) may be entrusted with the keys and act as agent for the vendors who may live elsewhere? This in order to catch any drive-by househunters. In such cases one would expect to have direct contact with the owners after the offer has been accepted. Is this legal now?

[QUOTE=sdoj]Isn't it true though, that in some of the wilder more remote regions there will be no estate agents and a local (bricklayer, surveyor or cobbler) may be entrusted with the keys and act as agent for the vendors who may live elsewhere? This in order to catch any drive-by househunters. In such cases one would expect to have direct contact with the owners after the offer has been accepted. Is this legal now?[/QUOTE]

AFAIK it is still illegal for them to pretend to be a licensed agent or to charge a fee for finding a property. This doesn't mean it isn't common though.

Bagni di Lucca isn't particularily wild or remote and has at least half a dozen licensed agents.

David

Something we have learned recently has forced us to declare this agent:

[url="http://www.Finehomestuscany.com"][/url]

If anyone is a client in the process of buying through this partnership and you have given them power of attorney to act on your behalf, we urge you to see your documentation prior to completion.

If it is not produced or if you have any doubts, consider using an Italian avvocato to oversee the purchase.

[QUOTE=yorkshirelass]Something we have learned recently has forced us to declare this agent:
[url="http://www.Finehomestuscany.com"][/url]
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing this information yorkshirelass.

Derek

... an interesting read... and i think one to be read alonside...the lawyer posting.... in fact if i so wished i could tomorrow drive to any number of cities in italy and providing i knew the right person obtain my official registered certificate to operate in italy as an estate agent..often there are unofficial price lists posted for virtually any certificate you might choose to have. that certain people do not bother is because they know that providing they operate in their own community they have little or no chance either through lawyers or courts of being prosecuted for what they are doing or at least the case being started but never finished..... magistarates here being part of the same club as notaries.lawyers geometras and solicitors will rarely move forward against them..... in fact they will all being supporting each other as they take it in turns to also become either local or regional politicians.... its just a act of life here... if you battle with it you will not win

beyond that...it is also a fact that in the case of estate agents the chamber of commerce has control over that exam and that only those approved to pass by members of that body will pass...it has very little to do with ability...if at all and more to do with who or what you are or your parents....

in front of you many will agree over this one or that one being greedy...or over their ability to operate as estate agent/geometra or whatever... once you have dissapeared and if you could be a fly on the wall you might well find them all sitting having dinner together having a bit of a laugh about the foreigner making a bit of trouble...... and thats the real pproblem...your the incomer...they and their families have been living in the same commune for centuries... they have a history together longer than most of us can imagine ... often related thorough marriage etc....cousins of second cousins twice removed.... a battle if you care to take it on thats almost definitley destined for the time ran out on that case and no prosecution to take place.... what is it here three years or so down the road and the case is stopped... better if possable to take the lawyer route.... check it first.... saying that and this is a change of mind for me...but looking at the prices quoted in the lawyer thread...always use a uk based lawyer..... from my experience here their prices are lower...their honesty...and their lack of relatives... ie second cousin removed from the estate agent.... might well be of benefit.... maybe we should check out family trees of all involved in sales also........
and for gods sake forget about qualified estate agents.... it honestly makes no difference.... just get everything checked if you have a single doubt....

and charles dont take it personally.... i happen to realise you take an interest beyond the norm of getting things right and being helpful... and dare i say it honest..... i have seen companies mentioned on here i know are not.... and cannot say a word... thankfully some have the courage to do so... i know of at least one company who has a boss often used for advice on many of the major foreign advice buying programs in the uk ... who deliberately up the price by 2-3 hundred per cent... advertising in the times.... of geometras/agents and how they manage this i do not know that double the owners asking price ... god knows why the owners dont complain when they see the price being paid... obviously i have missed something ..... and have yet to work out how this deal works... of members of the international estate agents complaints body ...carrying out those pratices thru their own agencies which us as foreign buyers might be using to get some sort of justice over an unfair deal...

in fact you have less chance or as much of being cheated by the local bar owner that sets up a deal as anyone registered to do it here..... so just make sure you keep yor wits about you...forget who is registered or not and use as much common sense and a lawyer if required to get the deal done right

the first rule of pounds, dollars, and euros:
if you are sitting at a poker table and you don't know who the chump is....you're the chump....
[url]http://www.angelfire.com/film/casale[/url]

Please see message on naming estate agents -

[url]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1775[/url]

Knowing the area well around Bagni di Lucca and knowing many of the local agents selling to British clients, it seems that much of this discussion is based on estate agents rivalry. If Yorkshire Lass is who I think she is, then she works closely alongside an individual that is selling properties in the area. Of course I maybe wrong but this small company seems to have come in for a lot of stick. I was also told by friends in the town that the Eric Hall is also friends with yorkshire lass and their legal case in Britain was thrown out of court as a scurrilous waste of the courts time. I am wondering if this forum is just a way of damaging a small company's reputation to enable another to flourish.

[QUOTE=yorkshirelass]We have just discovered that a document that was drawn up when purchasing a building near Bagni di Lucca is false.... we showed it to the Italians who own the rest of our building and are very friendly with ... it looks like the "friendly local geometra/agent" purporting to sell fine homes in Tuscany has pocketed this extra money ... he is working with an Englishman .. if you are buying in this area and want to know which company this is please email me... we have had another geometra look at the document who has also said it is false...we don't know what our next course of action will be....we want to make people aware of this company...unfortunately we couldn't get out to sign the final papers because they wouldn't tie in with dates when we were available....for obvious reasons now as is apparent.[/QUOTE]
Please forgive me but does not the Notaio deal with the legal documentation on the purchase of a property in Italy. So if the document is false is that not a legal issue with the Notaio? I thought that in Italy the agent helps with the purchase and negotiations with the vendor. Surely therefore the vendor or Notaio is to blame in this instant and not the agent.phil

[QUOTE=stefanaccio;11984]the first rule of pounds, dollars, and euros:
if you are sitting at a poker table and you don't know who the chump is....you're the chump....
[url=http://www.angelfire.com/film/casale]CASALE - A Rental Property in Italy[/url][/QUOTE]

Trouble is that now that I know that, what happens if I still don't know who the chump is, which obviously still makes me the chump ...but wait, now that I know who the chump is, I'm no longer the chump ...right?:laugh:

This business of the Geometra buying a house for 100,000.000 and selling for 125,000.00.If I was an Italian Geometra wanting to make money that's exactly what I'd do! if my Italian neighbour asked me to buy their house for 20,000 and I thought I could then sell it to a Brit for 50,000 I would.

I make jewellery.I buy beads etc some from Ghana some US etc.I make up the jewellery and sell it.I obviously dont sell the jewellery for the cost of the beads.That's why I have a business not a charity.If you own a shop you buy at 50p and sell at 1.00!Business!

Why are buyers not asking around to get an idea for prices? Why are they buying at the Geo's price? Why not ask the vendors? Chances are the Geo:confused: will get it anyway but they could try.I cant understand this at all.Someone explain.

manopello

the problem is not the facts of profit.. and i agree that you invest and look for a return..

the problem is it is illegal... a geometra cannot do it...it requires another type of licence and the property in that case if you are trading it should carry VAT.. that they pretend to be doing it privately is the illegal part because a private citizen can do this and pay on the gain... their profession excludes them from doing this without changing their registration much as it does estate agents

they often combine with agents .. again this is illegal.. because the system here is based on mediation and balance... the agent has to be outside the process as regards having any interest in any commercial aspect of the sale apart from their commision... obviously not poss if your working with the geometra to get the highest return ...

you obviously do this with a private sale for your client selling ... but as a mediator the client buying also has the right to know from you your professional estimate of the true value of a property... and really you are accountable if you exagerate it..

thats the story in a perfect world.. so profit is allowed.. its just you have to make the client aware who and what they are dealing with..

thanks for that..it's clear now.

Knowledge is power! Vero?
:wink:

I understand the fact that a Geometra cannot cannot wear two hats at the same time but what if they were to call themselves a property developer.

There are a few companies in Italy and linked to this forum that openly sell "developed" properties. They state quite clearly that they own the properties and are selling them on after they have made them habitable or modernised them. Some even state that you can buy directly off them and and avoid agency fees

Is the only difference that they are being open about what they are doing!!

the development companies have to charge VAT(IVA) on the property which sometimes makes the price unattractive... as you say many geometras/building comapnies work in this way...and its legal and can be good value... you also have the benefit of a guarantee ...

so no problems in my mind anyway in dealing with these people ... if they are doing it without being registered as this sort of company to trade in property then your protection is worse almost than if you are buying from an individual... cause if they disapear with your money i would think it would be harder to actually get at any real people or trace payments...

its really much the same as anywhere... the cowboy companies seem to be able to fail and start as often as they want... and the people in charge can never be touched...

there is no deal here in Italy where you will buy a bargain in the sense that it is massively below market value...unless there is a catch involved... if you were at home you would suss this straight away through your own local knowledge... so if you see something that looks too good to be true check other properties locally as regards value... and compare..

its very simple... that there are bargains because its exactley the house and situation you want at a price you can afford is also very true... because its your own personal bargain... but it will be only in the sense that it relates to you not in comparison to other properties surrounding it... and that i think is what you have to check... the market where you are buying and is the first pointer to a good deal about to happen or something with a significant catch hidden away

Might I be right in saying that the developer (if he was developing an old property) only charges VAT on added value element and is this at 20%?

He will deduct all his inputs so I am thinking he only lose out on VAT (compared to a private person) on his eventual margin?