1638 unconditional love for Italy?

It seems to me that on this forum many people are feeling that they should show their unconditional love for Italy if they choose to live there or face ridicule for being brits or 'little englanders'.They[B] must[/B] praise all things Italian and if they do hanker for yorkshire puddings or chip butties they must never ever tell anyone!Personally I feel this is daft.One really good thing about the UK is that so many cultures have influnced our society.Our children are used to having Indian food,Chinese food,Spainish food and yes even Italian sometimes :) .If Italians have English neigbours what's to say they wouldn't enjoy being invited round for some 'english food' washed down with a pint of Old Perculiar? After all we love a change why not them?

Last time I stayed in a B&B I was desparate to show the owner how to make proper scrambled eggs as hers were terrible.....olive oil is great but has no place in making scrambled eggs ;)

We've lived in lots of places,some I hated (Essex).Everywhere you go people are the same some good more bad! Lets be realistic about Italy and admit that its got a down side... that if you speak to people there you will soon hear about! Perhaps some of us with lots of money...[B]not us[/B] will have a cushion from daily life and can sit back and enjoy but those of us who aren't so lucky will probably find life in Italy every bit as annoying and frustrating as in any other place and will have every right to moan on about it.

Enough controversy?

Becky

Category

General chat about Italy

I think your opinions are correct.
Mine it's an italian point of view: I've always lived in Italy and I'm not planning to trasfer abroad me and my family, but I'm not blind and I can see all the things that are really frustrating here.
I totally agree with you: unconditional love is never the right way to really know full well anything: a person, a friend, a place, a Country...
So I find ridicolous any expression of chauvinism when people talk about their country.
About Italy, I think that people usually have prejudices, in either positive and negative cases.
Italians and Italy are often considered lazy, unereliable, chaotic, a bourocratic nightmare, crook (i.e. Mafia) etc. etc.
On the other hand, Italy is seen as the place of la dolce vita, dolce far niente, where people enjoy their life, eat grat food, etc. etc.
Well, this is at the same time real and bogus.
Italy is a great country, about 60million inhabitants, with a lot of differences among various zones: it's hard to compare Trento to Palermo or even Rome to Milan or a village in Abruzzo with Naples.
We have traditions, historical memories that makes a specific region different from the the others, but at the same time we're italians with a common background.
This happens in all the nations: I do not think that Paris might be considered similar to Marseille, and so on
Like everywhere, Italy is a place where you have to wake up daily and work, doing the same things people do in England, or France or USA, even if there's sunshine out there.
Is Italy a place as annoying and frustrating as any other place ?
May be, why not.
Many italians think in that way and go abroad to find better opportunities, many in the cool London, btw.
Are they wrong or are you italianlovers wrong ?
Not at all.
People must only find the place that matches for their specific needs, or for their needs in a specific period of their life.

Notaio,

Couldn't have put it any better, different places, different needs at different times.

Grazie

Hi there,
just wanted to say that yes, there is a good and bad side to most things in life.
Speaking as someone who has lived their whole life in England, these are just some of my views.
As much as I am looking forward to eventually retiring to Italy, I for one am not going to "burn my boats" so to speak! That is, my hubby and I intend to rent somewhere for about a year first, before we sell up our home here, just in case something goes wrong. :o But if all does go well, I know that I shall miss quite a few things that are all so very "English", for example our very unusual weather (no two days are the same. thank goodness!) Also, most important, I shall miss my food, good old staple diet like roast beef, liver and bacon, sausage toad, bubble and squeak!! I know I shall be able to cook them in Italy, but it won't be the same!! Also, our wonderful variety of entertainment that we have, the theatre, cinema and our great range of different restaurants.
What I won't miss are people with no manners, and don't know what a "queue" is!! Also the fact that people like me, are getting more worried about our "quality of life " deteriorating here, with this so called "yob" culture ( don't want to go down that road!)
Anyway, I will let you know my views when I do eventually retire to Italy. Meanwhile I just look forward to reading everyone's views on this great site.
Now I need to go and watch Jamie Oliver's new programme on Italian cooking, which is just going to start on Channel 4. :)
It will be interesting to see what other people think?
Ciao
Francesca

What I won't miss are people with no manners, and don't know what a "queue" is!!

Sorry Francesca, just a minor point but have you ever tried boarding a flight in Italy? Queue is an unknown concept :rolleyes:

England, United States, Italy - we seem to have the same complaints no matter where we live.

We are selling our house and moving to another state in about 6 more months - Quality of life is suppose to be better in the state that my husband wants us to move to. Who knows until we get there. I wish it were Italy, but unfortunately at this time in our lives it isn't.

California some people really nice, :) friendly, some just plain rude and you think what in the hell? :mad: I think what it all comes down to is really making the best of your situation at the time, don't you think?

You will always find a rude person here and there, you hopefully will find a nice, friendly person here or there too. You will always think the political party that you voted for or didn't is doing a fine job or a poor job. I'm beginning to find out after 45 years of life - It's a bit of the same every where, with the same problems, etc., you just have to make it the best you can.

[QUOTE=Susan P]What I won't miss are people with no manners, and don't know what a "queue" is!!

Sorry Francesca, just a minor point but have you ever tried boarding a flight in Italy? Queue is an unknown concept :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I have studied queing in Italy quite a lot: at the post office, in the chemist, butchers, bakers but not the candle-stick-makers. At the beginning I was very frustrated whenever my [I]absolute human right[/I] to be served in strict order was denied me. But after a while I calmed down and began to look around, and I found that apart from the occasional big bully the person with the most need generally gets to the front first: the old nona (treading on your toes as she moves ahead of you), the mother in a freta because the kids are in the car and she has parked badly, the person with only two or three items of shopping in the supermarket and a recent one this - the drug addict at the chemist for his methadone or syringe. If you have the time to sit back and take it all in it has some advantages over the British first-come-first-served approach, provided people behave in a civil and polite manner.

[QUOTE=notaio]I think your opinions are correct.
Mine it's an italian point of view: I've always lived in Italy and I'm not planning to trasfer abroad me and my family, but I'm not blind and I can see all the things that are really frustrating here.
I totally agree with you: unconditional love is never the right way to really know full well anything: a person, a friend, a place, a Country...
So I find ridicolous any expression of chauvinism when people talk about their country.
About Italy, I think that people usually have prejudices, in either positive and negative cases.
Italians and Italy are often considered lazy, unereliable, chaotic, a bourocratic nightmare, crook (i.e. Mafia) etc. etc.
On the other hand, Italy is seen as the place of la dolce vita, dolce far niente, where people enjoy their life, eat grat food, etc. etc.
Well, this is at the same time real and bogus.
Italy is a great country, about 60million inhabitants, with a lot of differences among various zones: it's hard to compare Trento to Palermo or even Rome to Milan or a village in Abruzzo with Naples.
We have traditions, historical memories that makes a specific region different from the the others, but at the same time we're italians with a common background.
This happens in all the nations: I do not think that Paris might be considered similar to Marseille, and so on
Like everywhere, Italy is a place where you have to wake up daily and work, doing the same things people do in England, or France or USA, even if there's sunshine out there.
Is Italy a place as annoying and frustrating as any other place ?
May be, why not.
Many italians think in that way and go abroad to find better opportunities, many in the cool London, btw.
Are they wrong or are you italianlovers wrong ?
Not at all.
People must only find the place that matches for their specific needs, or for their needs in a specific period of their life.[/QUOTE]

Dear Notaio, your private mailbox is full again, ciao ciao.

[QUOTE=Francesca]Hi there,
What I won't miss are people with no manners, and don't know what a "queue" is!!
Now I need to go and watch Jamie Oliver's new programme on Italian cooking, which is just going to start on Channel 4. :)
It will be interesting to see what other people think?
Ciao
Francesca[/QUOTE]

I read Susan P's Message before reading yours and I assumed that she was talking about the Italian style of queing - obviously you weren't. I thought Britain was still regarded as the land of the orderly queue - isn't it?

Maybe you can help me with this post I made a few days ago:
An Italian friend of mine spotted Jamie O at a petrol station during the making of the programme. He shouted across to him "I know you - you are a good cooker". Jamie replied in Italian: - I try - or something to that effect. That should have been the end of the story but the producer/director pounced on my friend and asked if he would do it again for the cameras but this time: "not cooker but cook". What did my friend say in front of the cameras?
I know you - you are a good cooker". If anyone sees this in an episode of the programme - please let me know if they managed to edit out the "er".

I wholeheartedly agree with the point at the beginning of this thread (except for the part about Essex, which I quite liked living in). There are lots of things I think are better in England and lots better in Italy but I prefer the quasi queing thing we do in Italy, I can't stand waiting in queues in line, and will do it but under protest.

...italy and queing... i was at the asl the other day to have a medical to change my licence...i know i should have done it a couple of years ago... but i have obviously taken the italian slow approach to life... anyway room 13 was the doctors room.... took my ticket and prepared to settle down to wait...the first three people into the doctors...all either came later than the rest f the queue or didnt bother with tickets....after an hour i stood in the doorway and insisted on my right to be next .... which then started a minor revolution amongst all my over fellow ticket holders...tired of waiting and seeing obviously the director of the place push his friends through .... they all stood behind me and also insisted on their right to follow the ticket numbering ..... i guess the lesson is get to know the boss of where you think you might have to queue next.... i actually dont get that impatient with it....generally only in official queues...quite like the shop/post office queues....

a friend of mine here had to renew his licence and had to take a unpaid day off work... ... because of this i would say that often you that retire here and have the time are lucky...but for 99.9 % of the population it can be a major headache....

the chef from one of the local agriturismo recently had a new arrival to the family...we met him outside the government office he had just left.... two days off work to get his baby registered... no wonder they have such big parties here to celebrate births....not only the new arrival ...but the achievment of actually getting through the hurdles of making it legal....

... if you happen to think moving to italy will get rid of the rude manners you might find yourself sadly mistaken..... can honestly say it doesnt appear on the street...and i wont argue you dont feel happier here,..... but try telephoning any of the service companies here with a query and if they dont like it they ll hang up....

... what is strange is that a lot of you with these higher unconbditional expectations of life here will almost certainly within a few years giving up and going back.... before i came here i used to watch all those tv move abroad type programs...well not all ...far too many...but it seems to be a fact that of those that do leave the uk more than half return after a few years... not hard to see why when expectations of life here are so high and not only in italy but worldwide would be more than impossable to achieve....

... a touch of reallity is often shot down here as anti italian or miserable...but the reallity is that life is also what you make it...if your expectations are not beyond reallity you will find this a pleasant country to live in....for those that think its a fairy tale land it will be difficult for you when you starrt to pick up the language and learn that everything is not as nice as you first thought....in general conversations amongst locals consist of telling you how bad all the rest of your neighbours are and how horrible they are... smiling all the time and five minutes later chatting away with the one they had been referring to....back stabbing here is a major pastime ....jealousy and vindictivness part of life.... if you elaise this before you come you can accept and be amused by it..... blissful indeed if you cannot understand the language...because it passes over your head....

... we know people here that have not spoken to each other for the last thirty or fourty years.... over some small incident.... other people that when they meet in the street turn their back on each other.... if anyone makes a house improvement...they are showing off or getting above themselves... anyone working to improve the local community is obviously making lots of money and really should mind their own bussiness ...after all their father was only a factory worker...how dare they try and change things.... this will all be familiar to you whereever you live in the world...dont expect it to be different her....and remember ...in general you will be coming here to improve a property...spending money that most locals although they have it would not be so frivilous to show anyone...they save it for their children or grandchildren...or their funeral...weddings here and christenings and first comunions all cost a fortune... and they like the boost to the local economey ...that is if you are wise enough to spend locally ...but after that they tend to get a bit fed up with people that seem to have money without working and by doing up the house are showing it all off.... really maybe the best thing is to never learn italian....

Adriatica, the story of the baby registered in two days, sounds funny and tipically "italian", but it is probally not real.
Being the proud father of 3 kids, I can assure you that the birth registration is something you do at the hospital where the baby is born.
It takes no more than 1/2 hour.

Hi Sdoj,
just to answer your query about your friend at the petrol station. I have to say that I did not pay much attention to that part (sorry). He did have a short conversation with a chap at the petrol station, but to be honest, the first part of the programme was rather chaotic! The second half, Jamie was asked to do some street cooking, but first off the local's would not let him do any! He eventually won them round, in his own rather down-to-earth approach, and all ended fairly happy
Answering the second half of your post re queueing, sadly it seems the same everywhere these days, that people just seem to do what they like. To me personally, this is a lack of good manners :(
But then perhaps I am old-fashioned in that respect :o
Ciao
Francesca

Since moving to Ireland I have been told on more than one occasion that as a foreigner I have no right to voice criticisms of this country.

I would not be surprised if some of this attitude occurs in Italy as well.

However, as an [i]immigrant[/i] I am also aware that I sometimes go on a bit too much about other places I have lived. It is common to compare and contrast, but sometimes we do get carried away, and this can annoy people. Having said that, it is all a balancing act - marrying the best from home with the best of our adopted homes, and enjoying the advantages of both worlds in the process.

notaio... do you not also have to get his/her codice fiscale...etc...etc.... admittedly he has a foreign wife and maybe that was the difficulty...

[QUOTE=Sano]Since moving to Ireland I have been told on more than one occasion that as a foreigner I have no right to voice criticisms of this country.

I would not be surprised if some of this attitude occurs in Italy as well.

I am expecting criticism from all quarters for what I am about to say. I think the Irish are a bit touchy sometimes and constructive criticism is often seen as an attack on their already wounded national pride. It may have something to do with a favourite expression they have: "[I]the English always forget the Irish never forget[/I]". Parts of Italy were also occupied or ruled by foreign powers for centuries - has anyone registered touchiness on the part of the Italians?

[color=black][font=Verdana]Can someone point me in the right direction but has anyone actually said they have unconditional love for [/font][/color][color=black][font=Verdana]Italy[/font][/color][color=black][font=Verdana] or not aware of the realities. As for those who give up and return, surely it's because they have tried but decided it wasn't for them, how else would they know unless they actually do it, live it.[/font][/color]

all good points... especially the supermarket queing... "posso andare prima io ho solo un etto di etc etc...." so annoying! :mad:
I really miss my english junk food, good deodrant and liberty to wear what I want when I want. Over here if you are not dressed "in your sunday best" on sunday people think your ill :eek:
Comunque... I here for love and you just have to put up with the rest!! ;)

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca][color=black][font=Verdana]Can someone point me in the right direction but has anyone actually said they have unconditional love for [/font][/color][color=black][font=Verdana]Italy[/font][/color][color=black][font=Verdana] or not aware of the realities. As for those who give up and return, surely it's because they have tried but decided it wasn't for them, how else would they know unless they actually do it, live it.[/font][/color][/QUOTE]

LOL, good point, although in all fairness the original poster did say it was their opinion. I am not bothered about saying I love my life here for many reasons, I don't particularly hate England, there aren't many things about England that I miss. I am quite sure that things will eventually irritate me, but not so far, other than the bureaucracy which i knew about before I came, the only queing incident I have witnessed was an English woman pushing into a perfectly orderly Italian queue, people backbite and are 2 faced all over the world... Unconditonal Love... that's something dogs seem to give...
Ducking and yelling "INCOMING..."

George you are right - dogs do give you unconditional love :) That is the best. I just had to add that, because really, no country, no person really, but dogs, they love you no matter what. They love you more around dinner time and wait for you to give them something to eat, but still they love you :p They always make you feel good, smile, laugh. Okay I'm done about unconditional dog love... but you are right!

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]LOL, good point, although in all fairness the original poster did say it was their opinion. I am not bothered about saying I love my life here for many reasons, I don't particularly hate England, there aren't many things about England that I miss. I am quite sure that things will eventually irritate me, but not so far, other than the bureaucracy which i knew about before I came, the only queing incident I have witnessed was an English woman pushing into a perfectly orderly Italian queue, people backbite and are 2 faced all over the world... Unconditonal Love... that's something dogs seem to give...
Ducking and yelling "INCOMING..."[/QUOTE]

[size=3][font=Times New Roman]Exactly! The original post was a good post. We all make what we want out of any situation, it’s the insistence by some that we have to view things in a certain way, which I believe is what the original post was trying to say but I could be wrong. I’m ducking with you George! [/font][/size]

[QUOTE=sdoj]I am expecting criticism from all quarters for what I am about to say. I think the Irish are a bit touchy sometimes and constructive criticism is often seen as an attack on their already wounded national pride. It may have something to do with a favourite expression they have: "[I]the English always forget the Irish never forget[/I]". Parts of Italy were also occupied or ruled by foreign powers for centuries - has anyone registered touchiness on the part of the Italians?[/QUOTE]

Nah, no criticism from here...

Hmmm ... my fellow (German) nationals aren't too well regarded in Italy ... but then that's no surprise!!! My collective 'ancestors' dug their own grave and sadly our generation(s) have to suffer the consequences.

However, neither in Italy, France nor in the UK have I ever had any negative personal experience (though I had one in Denmark!), so perhaps it's just how you come across. I'm very interested in the country I live in (UK at the moment and maybe Italy in a few years' time), and in the case of the UK have ended up knowing more about culture and history (medieval in particular) than many friends or colleagues who don't seem to learn much about their own background anymore. A sad sign of the times. :(

Agree that there are good & bad sides to wherever you live. Couldn't imagine living in Germany anymore but found that the quality of life in the UK has deteriorated over the nearly 9 years I've spent here. Not sure about the status of political correctness in Italy but here it's driving me mad... but perhaps that's just another sign of the times too (as I've heard it's just as bad in Germania)...

However, there are lots of friendly and helpful folk in the UK and the variety of wild landscapes, of which there are plenty in Scotland, still manages to keep us here... but for how long??

BTW, Jamie O said in his programme last night that a 'poor' meal (cucina povera) cooked by poor folks in Italy is far healthier than its equivalent in the UK - and how right he is!!

Stephanie

[QUOTE=Sweetpeg]George you are right - dogs do give you unconditional love :) That is the best. I just had to add that, because really, no country, no person really, but dogs, they love you no matter what. They love you more around dinner time and wait for you to give them something to eat, but still they love you :p They always make you feel good, smile, laugh. Okay I'm done about unconditional dog love... but you are right![/QUOTE]

i always thought dogs were just like people/countries... most are ok..
but just like people, even those that have been treated lovingly,
they do attack. how often do you read in the papers about a family pet
attacking a child/person... unconditional?.. not all..

[QUOTE=giovanni]i always thought dogs were just like people/countries... most are ok..
but just like people, even those that have been treated lovingly,
they do attack. how often do you read in the papers about a family pet
attacking a child/person... unconditional?.. not all..[/QUOTE]

[color=black]Yes in the papers but do you know the circumstances behind why the dog may have attacked. There is normally a reason why these things happen, past life, not used to children, jealousy etc. A dog does not have the same ability to “supposedly” [/color][color=black]rationalise [/color][color=black]things as a human should. [/color]

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca][color=black]Yes in the papers but do you know the circumstances behind why the dog may have attacked. There is normally a reason why these things happen, past life, not used to children, jealousy etc. A dog does not have the same ability to “supposedly” [/color][color=black]rationalise [/color][color=black]things as a human should. [/color][/QUOTE]

sounds like you could use the same statement to describe a mass murderer,
without implying there are one and the same.

Giovanni, no arguments from me about dogs attacking, but.... I read a lot in the papers of someone getting raped, killed, beaten daily in the paper, once or twice read about a dog attacking. That wasn't what the post is about and IN MY OPINION, I just wanted to add to George's comment about "unconditional love" from dogs. Also away from the original post, but it made me smile when he said that and brightened my morning, knowing when I go home from work, I have my two girls (my dogs) - jumping on me and barking and tails wagging because that is unconditional love. I don't have that with the people here :D

[QUOTE=Sweetpeg]Giovanni, no arguments from me about dogs attacking, but.... I read a lot in the papers of someone getting raped, killed, beaten daily in the paper, once or twice read about a dog attacking. That wasn't what the post is about and IN MY OPINION, I just wanted to add to George's comment about "unconditional love" from dogs. Also away from the original post, but it made me smile when he said that and brightened my morning, knowing when I go home from work, I have my two girls (my dogs) - jumping on me and barking and tails wagging because that is unconditional love. I don't have that with the people here :D[/QUOTE]

piont taken...

Having to deal with both British and Italian people on a daily basis, I get comments on both countries almost every day. And having spent a long time in the UK I feel right "in the middle".
All I can say is that it takes a really open frame of mind for British people to move over to Italy and some "adjustment" for Italians to move over to the UK.
I've often considered myself moving over to the UK, but chose to settle down in Italy and go to Britain as often as I can. This way I get the chance to appreciate both cultures and skip off almost all the negative aspects of each country.
This is my way of unconditionally loving both countries.

Francesco
[url]www.learnitalian.bravehost.com[/url]

Hi Francesco,
just read your thread, sounds good to me. Wish that I were in your shoes, so to speak, as to me you have the "best of both worlds" :)
Ciao
Francesca

[QUOTE=will]Stephanie I found your post really surprising......that as a German national who, as you acknowledge along with the rest of your generation has unfairly been tarred with prejudice and racism because of what happened during WW2 that you of all people should endorse or agree with SDOJs insensitive post about the Irish, which seems in this case to have been aimed at Sano......the point is and you can call me politically correct if you want....it wasnt your "collective ancestors" it was a pernicous political movement to which not all Germans subscribed ......likewise not all Irish are touchy.[/QUOTE]

Hi Will,

Ooops sorry, I mainly responded to his last line, so I probably should've deleted the rest of his comments. That happens when you try & answer quickly before getting back to work... argh! Apologies! :)

I spent 4 weeks in Ireland in 1996 & nearly moved there, as I adored country & people (but ended up in Scotland instead - long story!). As regards touchiness, I think most 'nationalities' have certain issues they're touchy about - either something historical, specific attitudes or behaviours - and personally I think you can't fault them. It's part of their cultural pride and whenever that's insulted, people feel duly aggrieved. I've come across Scottish, English, Welsh (yep, the usual Brit against Brit issue), French people who were/are touchy whenever certain issues are raised and I don't think negatively of them just because of it. As long as issues are discussed in friendly banter, it's not a bad thing - but it turns into one when it gets violent, the negative side of national pride.

Again - didn't mean to add any negative comments about any Irish folks...

Stephanie

[QUOTE=will]with SDOJs insensitive post about the Irish, which seems in this case to have been aimed at Sano...the point is and you can call me politically correct if you want...likewise not all Irish are touchy.[/QUOTE]

Will, either I expressed myself very badly or you need to go back and read what I wrote again. I was agreeing with Sano's observation that Ireland does not always view criticism from outsiders objectively (one could argue - who does?) and I gave my opinion on a possible cause of the touchiness.
I then went on to ask if anyone had noticed anything similar in Italy, which after all is what this site is supposed to be about.
Digressing for a moment to ze Germans though - I find that an Italian person's view when not based on personal knowledge of the country (DE) or of its people can often be influenced by the way the Italian swings politically.
But people do this all over the world - in particular, the way people perceive Americans and Israelis is very often tainted by their opinion of the leaderships of Bush and Sharon rather than being based on first hand knowledge of the people.
btw: Did anyone notice the giornalistic furore in the summer silly season - back and forth between Italian and German newspapers? Some of it better entertainment than anything The Sun could have mounted.

Dear Sano

I have been accused of being insensitive and of having had a dig at you - neither was intended - I was saying that I had noticed the same thing as you in Ireland and tried to give a possible explanation.

All the best.

[color=black]Thanks Sweetpeg, much better way of saying it than my effort and think you understood me. Anyway back to original post. Actually do you think there is a full moon or something, there's a lot of misunderstandings on here lately. :) [/color]

seems to me a lot of forum members get a bit touchy quite often.... often people generalise and i dont think that in itself is somehing wrong we all do.... often the french get blatantly abused here when comparing culture but having lived there also...not in one of the big cities but in rural central france and in the coastal south east i found both areas as friendly and welcoming in general as that of life here...

as regards the question of italian prejudice against races... there is a long history of internal prjudice which we all know about and i have been accused of having it also ...the obvious north south divide.... outside nations that are considered all thieves are albanians and rumanians...again a generalistaion...but often on the news or discussion programs here you hear these opinions....some might say because of their apparent organsied criminality... they have banned muslims from wearing their native dress...they have banned muslim school children from attending school if they havent eaten during the month of ramadam ... is it prjudice...i dont know...surely against the rules which they have signed up to on human rights....

they still often show rai made modern productions of ww2 featuring dastardly nazis and courageous italians .... so yes as everywhere myths persist and history is re written to suit the current thinking....

[QUOTE=sdoj]Dear Sano

All the best.[/QUOTE]

I took no offense to your post as I saw nothing there to be offended about. Your observations closely matched my own, as well as that of other foreigners, and returning Irish that I know.

[QUOTE=sdoj].......
btw: Did anyone notice the giornalistic furore in the summer silly season - back and forth between Italian and German newspapers? Some of it better entertainment than anything The Sun could have mounted.[/QUOTE]

Nope, didn't hear of it.... what were they saying?? Am intrigued... ;)

[QUOTE=Sano]I took no offense to your post as I saw nothing there to be offended about. Your observations closely matched my own, as well as that of other foreigners, and returning Irish that I know.[/QUOTE]

Hi Sano!

I think you've used an important word here in your comment - "observations" ! In the end, this is often (not saying 'always') the cause of generalisation - personal observations or perception! Can be positive & negative... and anywhere in the whole wide world! :)

Cheers,
Stephanie

[QUOTE=will]Sdoj ...you anticipated criticism so you can hardly be too surprised when it comes..... I dont understand, who are you to say "the Irish are a bit touchy"? .....You are talking about a vast collection of individuals here all with different qualities as though they all conform to these sweeping descriptions.[/QUOTE]

Will, If you are an Irish citizen and living in Ireland then I would like to refer you to Sano who has a more hands-on appreciation of the enough-said-touchiness but I suspect that is not the case so I will reply to the person I think you are:

Possibly a journalist or a politician, at any rate you seem to have the requisite skill of those professions for taking a partial quote and turning it into something damming and quite different from what it was intended to be.
I said: "I think the Irish are a bit touchy [U]sometimes[/U]" and then went on to explain what I think might be a perfectly sane explanation for that touchiness. I rounded off by asking the forum if they had noticed any Italian touchiness in relation to them having being occupied and ruled from afar so many times over the centuries. btw I also find some South Korean people a bit touchy when talking about Japan and some Czechs touchy when talking about several nations (including the one that sired Chamberlain).
The reason I anticipted an attack was because I know there are pc types like you who trawl websites like this looking to take up the cudgel (shilaleagh in celtic) on behalf of the down-trodden and needy. But let me tell you this, Ireland is no longer a downtrodden and needy land and I sense a movement away from touchinesss toward a new self-confidence; a direct result of the leap-frog it has performed over many EC nations and not just economically. So they don't need your help and I don't think this site needs your pc censorship.

Come on, guys! It would be nice if we could stop throwing accusations against each other. :)

I think most of us agree that there is a fine line between criticism of another country and outright racism and everyone sees this line at a different level.

Hypothetically speaking, if I'm fed up with something, I can freely criticise 'my own' country and people without much aggravation, but if some foreigner makes exactly the same comment for the same reason, it automatically becomes racist? I think not. But then, someone else might think it is. What can you do?? :confused: (and no, not talking about Irish here, just for clarification!)

Another good thread gone awry! :(

Stephanie

[QUOTE=Iona]Nope, didn't hear of it.... what were they saying?? Am intrigued... ;)[/QUOTE]

OK. It kicked off with a set of guidelines drawn up by "Associazione Bagni Italiani" or some such self-important body. These rules suggested a return to a more genteel comportment on behalf of their paying guests:
- no drinking beer on the beach
- no cooking on the beach
- no bare breasts in public (adult female)
- no bare breasts away from the beach (adults)
- no bare (sandy) feet away from the beach
- no hanging - of anything - on beach umbrellas
This was taken up by certain German tabloids who felt it was a direct attack on German holidaymaking mores and suggested its readers take their money and towels where they would be more welcome.
Some Italian newspapers countered that the good burghers of the Black Forest would not take kindly to Italians dropping litter and cigarette ends along its tranquil paths and if the Germans wanted to holiday in Italy they should follow Italian etiquette.
That provoked the German press to recall the remarks made in July 2003 by Stefano Stefani (the then Italian Tourism Minister). An excerpt of which reads: "We know the Germans well - these stereotyped blondes with ultra-nationalist pride, indoctrinated since way back when to feel top of the class at any price. And just like any self-respecting top-of-the-class pupils, they never miss an opportunity to behave in an arrogant manner."
And so it went on....and on.
Italian friends tells me it is an annual ritual not unlike the slating match that occurs betwen the French and English press each time farm subsidies come up for discussion and I know that Italians tell the same old joke about the missing German boy on the beach year after year because I have heard it a few times and I don't visit the beach very often.
I imagine that my new friend Will would like to outlaw all such banter because I presume, he presumes it creates discord between societies but I don't agree with his presumption.

[QUOTE=will]I had a chuckle at that one sdoj....you seem to think as long as you include some half baked qualification, in this case the word "sometimes" ... that this in someway can absolve you of using a racist remark.

Its is no more ok to say: "I think the Irish are a bit touchy sometimes" as it is to say: "I think that the Italians are a bit lazy sometimes" or :"I think Albanians are a bit untrustworthy sometimes".

They are of course all ridiculous and immature statements....and just lazy racist stereotyping ....regardless of whatever arguements follow.......frankly I dont mind how many people disagree with me about the matter on the Italy magazine forum..........as for being a "PC type"....I'm not sure what type I am, but if it makes you feel better catorgorising me feel free:)[/QUOTE]

Will, you just don't get it do you? You have done it again, you have disingenuosly taken an extract out of context to slur me and call me a racist. The let-off clause for Irish touchiness is not one word - sometimes - it is in the occupation and persecution and the famine that their forbearers suffered, all of which is drummed into them at school. Future generations will learn how Ireland overcame their past to become a leading member of the EC...anyway that is my dream.

[QUOTE=Iona]Come on, guys! It would be nice if we could stop throwing accusations against each other. :)

I think most of us agree that there is a fine line between criticism of another country and outright racism and everyone sees this line at a different level.

Another good thread gone awry! :(

Stephanie[/QUOTE]

You reminded me of a WC (no, not PC, Will) quote:
"When I am abroad, I always make it a rule never to criticize or attack the government of my own country. I make up for lost time when I come home."

Stephanie, I realise this thread has gone a bit awry but I have always tried to keep it relevant to unconditional love for Italy but apologies to anyone who doesn't like the bickering.

[QUOTE=will]blimey..... theres a whole "let off clause" for Irelands touchiness.....phew..... I'm sure the Irish population will be very relieved and grateful you've provided one on their behalf.

ps. I'm sorry I remind you of a WC.....most unfortunate...hopefuly thats just a passing phase:)

.[/QUOTE]

I didn't provide it you dunce...800 years of history did. I didn't want to have to spell it out for you but after you accused me of racist remarks I felt I had no choice. If you had not been so caught-up in political correctness and had tried to think before shooting you would have realised that that is what my original post was saying.

Hey guys, let's go back to being nice and funny!! Life is so hard already!
One of the things I can't stand about us Italians is that we seem to wear sun-glasses even when we've got more fog than you could possibly get in the UK!!
Anyone agreeing with me?

Francesco
[url]www.learnitalian.bravehost.com[/url]

[QUOTE=sdoj]OK. It kicked off with a set of guidelines drawn up by "Associazione Bagni Italiani" or some such self-important body. These rules suggested a return to a more genteel comportment on behalf of their paying guests:
- no drinking beer on the beach
- no cooking on the beach
- no bare breasts in public (adult female)
- no bare breasts away from the beach (adults)
- no bare (sandy) feet away from the beach
- no hanging - of anything - on beach umbrellas
This was taken up by certain German tabloids who felt it was a direct attack on German holidaymaking mores and suggested its readers take their money and towels where they would be more welcome.
Some Italian newspapers countered that the good burghers of the Black Forest would not take kindly to Italians dropping litter and cigarette ends along its tranquil paths and if the Germans wanted to holiday in Italy they should follow Italian etiquette.
That provoked the German press to recall the remarks made in July 2003 by Stefano Stefani (the then Italian Tourism Minister). An excerpt of which reads: "We know the Germans well - these stereotyped blondes with ultra-nationalist pride, indoctrinated since way back when to feel top of the class at any price. And just like any self-respecting top-of-the-class pupils, they never miss an opportunity to behave in an arrogant manner."
And so it went on....and on. ........
[/QUOTE]

LOL This made me laugh out loud. I wish I'd been there ... :D :D But I think the Italians have a point about local etiquette - such as behaving & dressing properly in certain areas.

I must admit I agree with the Italian (and non-Italian) view of many (!) German tourists... I've been mortified by the behaviour of some of my compatriots in the UK, France and Italy ... and usually avoid making myself known as coming from the same corner of Europe (though I don't know any 'stereotype blonde Germans' LOL). In one instance, I ended up apologising for a German group's bad behaviour to stressed hotel staff in London! They were so embarrassing that me and my German friend started speaking in English (both of us lived in the UK, so fairly fluent ... though my friend still maintains a strong 'Schumacher' accent lol)!! :(

[QUOTE=Francesco]Hey guys, let's go back to being nice and funny!! Life is so hard already!
One of the things I can't stand about us Italians is that we seem to wear sun-glasses even when we've got more fog than you could possibly get in the UK!!
Anyone agreeing with me?

Francesco
[url]www.learnitalian.bravehost.com[/url][/QUOTE]

Nice one! Why is this? Is it more about looking cool rather than see properly where you're going?? ;)

Probably so! A bit of a "diva" in every Italian!
Anybody else noticed this very Italian habit??

Francesco
[url]www.learnitalian.bravehost.com[/url]

[QUOTE=Iona]LOL This made me laugh out loud. I wish I'd been there ... :D :D But I think the Italians have a point about local etiquette - such as behaving & dressing properly in certain areas.

S[/QUOTE]

It happens to all of us...I once went with my wife for dinner at Harry's Bar in Venice where they seated us in the English corner, presumably so the English speaking waiters could serve us but maybe just to keep the different nations apart. So apalled were we by the embarassing behaviour of some Champagne guzzling film people at a nearby table that we spoke in meek Italian all night.

Francesco
[url]www.learnitalian.bravehost.com[/url][/QUOTE]

I remember a round-robin letter (an email that gets forwarded on and on) advising the coolest things about being from one nation or another. The only one that I remember is that Italians get to keep their sunglasses on indoors.

Hi
I am the Carol part of Carol & Dave, we are about to start our big adventure and move to Abruzzo in November, having burned our bridges and sold up here in England.

My Mother came from Trieste and I spent many, many summer holidays visiting my Nonna and Nonno so I know a bit about Italy. Although I love Italy, I am not blind to its drawbacks. I love procciuto but will have to return to England occasionaly for a good old bacon buttie.

Both Dave and I have been in high stress (not high pay) jobs and we have decided that now is the time to relax; where better than Italy!

Everything is a matter of balance and I feel that the drawbacks of Italy are more than balanced out by the relaxed and slow pace of life, the wonderful food, cheap wine and beautiful weather and views. I watched a 'Place in the Sun' programme where a couple wanted to move to Italy for the 'slower pace of life' and then went into a rage when everything happened so slowly! You can't have it both ways.

Every time I find something irritating or annoying in Italy (and I know I will) I will just remember the price of wine in England, my view of my next door neighbours washing, working for a tranch of unreasonable bosses and the fact that peaches go from hard as rock to rotten without ever being nice to eat.

No where is perfect and I will invite my new Italian neighbours for some roast beef and yorshire pudding, beef and ale pie and apple crumble and custard!

Wish me luck!!
Carol :)

Most Italians don't wear their sunglasses on their eyes; they usually have them on the top of their heads to keep their hair in place.

Susi

1638 unconditional love for Italy?

Unconditional love

Queues!

Thoughts

Re Jamie Oliver

Right on

No arguments

Sounds good

Please ...

It's all a matter of balance

Don't agree Francesco