1531 Traders working in the Black

I have (ahem!) heard of this practise & from conversations recognise that it's not too uncommon.

Over-reacting? That's more down to your own expectations; as I umderstand it you employed a geometra to get the job done. The job is done. :D

Take the moral high ground and stick to it, a professional contractor would never do a tax dodge!!!???? (At least without the request of the person commissioning the job). If you have to declare expenses then insist on an invoice. Then again if you don't have to declare it as an expense (need proof of payment for a mortgage/loan etc) then the question is do you want to save 20%. :)

What confuses me is why you are dealing with all these contractors on an individual basis, shouldn't your project manager just give you an invoice for the work and pay the contractors on your behalf, then they can do any dodgy deal they like without involving you.

Also remember if your a business in Italy and you have an expense to claim then a receipt is not good enough, you have to get an invoice, even from shops etc.

[QUOTE=WiredEyes]

What confuses me is why you are dealing with all these contractors on an individual basis, shouldn't your project manager just give you an invoice for the work and pay the contractors on your behalf, then they can do any dodgy deal they like without involving you..[/QUOTE]

When my geometra gave me the 'final account' for my house 'improvements', I was expected to give cheques for each tradesman - not one big one for the full amount. I think its not unusual for this to happen.

Yeah sorry not saying that it is unusual for a geometra to give you a load of individual invoices from each workman, as I have no idea how they work, there may well be some "economic" or "tax" reason why they do it this way. It is just for me (A web developer) I use freelancers all the time and they invoice me and I invoice the client which makes it simple for the client which is always a good thing in my book plus I can add any commission fees etc. But hey im probably doing it all wrong anyway...;. :)

My vote would be to bump it. Altrimenti you risk being the brutta figura of the month and/or being on the receiving end of some kind of retribution from the townspeople. You risk losing both some cash and your reputation.
Casale near Teramo [url]www.angelfire.com/film/casale[/url]

Or obviously be tactfully and say your accountant has insisted that you have to have everything invoiced for tax deduction reasons and 11,000 euros is a lot of money to not declare to the tax man. Your sorry to insist blah blah etc etc .

[QUOTE=will]Pamela.......you can of course choose to turn this into a crusade over professionalism or your comprimised integrity and not rest until you have everything back under control if you really really want to.......or......you could choose to shut your eyes........feel the breeze flow off the Tyrennian Sea......and decide not to waste another jot of negative energy on a piddley preventivo.....and move on.[/QUOTE]

Another flipant and quite useless post - are you at all qualified to advise this woman who was clearly upset and worried about her predicament?

I quite agree with your post. Will is a twit.

The trouble is that, in Italy, you are expected to conform with the general compete lack of interest in complying with the law. If you don't, you are typecast as stupid or something similar.

Just an example, but I was particularly revolted by the good trade in obtaining illegal disabled badges, so as to avoid parking restrictions. Even some (apparently) well-behaved Italians are happy to go in for this sort of thing.

Breaking the law is absolutely normal in Italy, if not obligatory.

I offer one example : has anyone, ever, I mean EVER ??? seen a carabiniere or a poliziotto riding a car and wearing a seat belt ??

Where will it end, if ever ?

e

Without a receipt/invoice you have no recourse if something goes wrong. I don't know what type of work this contractor did but if it is anything structiural, electrical or water and gas you could end up with larger fees to pay if something does not conform, if the police come to check the work or if something breaks.

Yes, paying in the black is normal BUT there are ways to do it that do not leave you holding the bag. You have them do a partial invoice for a certain amount and then you have your guarantee. Letì's say you pay them 50% in black and 50% with IVA in payment of an invoice.

Oh and I see carabinieri with seatbelts here. I also know a policeman here who gave a ticket to a carabinieri who was driving while talking on the phone.

[QUOTE=ernie]

I offer one example : has anyone, ever, I mean EVER ??? seen a carabiniere or a poliziotto riding a car and wearing a seat belt ??

Where will it end, if ever ?

e[/QUOTE]

You might find that it's the same as the UK ie police officers are exempt from the seat belt wearing law if driving police vehicles on duty. As the UK is a seatbelt wearing culture most police officers do wear them but legally don't have to.

[QUOTE=Nicola]You might find that it's the same as the UK ie police officers are exempt from the seat belt wearing law if driving police vehicles on duty. As the UK is a seatbelt wearing culture most police officers do wear them but legally don't have to.[/QUOTE]

My brother is a Sargent, and my Dad was A DCI. Police officers ARE governed by the same laws members of the public are, but prosecution is usually not deemed in the public Interest.

Example: Speed Cameras. Officers WILL get prosecuted if they go through Speed cameras whilst performing normal duty (even in a police car). If they are on a B&2's call this can be proven via the Command centre log and used as evidence in the decision of prosection, and therefore it is not prosecuted as it is not "deemed to be in the Public Interest". This happened to my brother, and the Inspector investigated before recommending no further action.

This is very different from them being legally "allowed too". If a officer jumps a set of red lights and hits another car, they will probably be prosecuted for Dangerous Driving. If they are prosecuted, most will loose their job.

I would therefore ask people remember this when they hear of Police officers taking 'X' long before they arrived. Officers risk loosing their career, jobs, pension etc. every time they step into a car. The same goes for Armed officers. I think we should all cut them some slack!

I would add that each Constabulary have there own rules, and the one my brother is in is one of the toughest (but top of the leauge table) and will not tolorate any discretions from the rules (Unlike where I live!) :rolleyes:

I am a police officer!! (or at least was until I came to Italy) and police are legally exempt from wearing a seatbelt - it's written into the law. Afraid I can't quote you it off the top of my head but it's definitely there.

I totally agree with your other comments on the speeding etc though :D

My reason for putting in the above comment was probably the same as yours ie I found that people often made judgements, comments etc about the police ie complaining how long we took to arrive and thinking we're above the law cos we didn't wear seatbelts when they didn't actually know the full story. :)

[QUOTE=Nicola]I am a police officer!! (or at least was until I came to Italy) and police are legally exempt from wearing a seatbelt - it's written into the law. Afraid I can't quote you it off the top of my head but it's definitely there. [/QUOTE]

Thats funny, so was I (12 years - before moving to Ireland)!!
Anyway if I remember, the exemptions (Road Traffic Act) were something like ".. police officers in their normal course of duty". This also applied to other emergency services and, of course, pregnant women. May have changed now, though.
I think it becomes a different matter when the standard of driving is a danger to other road users and perhaps wasn't even necessary (i.e. not an emergency).
In any case, different forces have different policies.

Derek

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my thread. It was actually the perimeter wall which he built, the materials ( stones) being from my land , cement etc paid for by me.The 11,000 euros was for labour.

I will try the 50% black/ white but according to the architect/project manager he will not give me any sort of receipt at all. If anyone comes here I think I am so fed up with everything by now, that I will just point them in the direction of the architect, he employed him.
Once more thanks , nice to know you are all out there.

Apologies.

Unaware of the seatbelt law being specifically written in, I assumed it was also "In the Public Interst"..... :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=pamela catalano]Thanks to everyone who has replied to my thread. It was actually the perimeter wall which he built, the materials ( stones) being from my land , cement etc paid for by me.The 11,000 euros was for labour.

I will try the 50% black/ white but according to the architect/project manager he will not give me any sort of receipt at all. If anyone comes here I think I am so fed up with everything by now, that I will just point them in the direction of the architect, he employed him.
Once more thanks , nice to know you are all out there.[/QUOTE]

Just out of interest - how many hours/days did he put in for the Euro 11k?

Pamela, tell him that either you get a receipt or you call the guardia della finanze. Don't let them take advantage of you because you are a foreigner. It happens all the time and it is wrong but they get away with it because people don't want to cause problems.

And since it was work on a wall, if the thing falls down and kills someone, you have no legal ground to protect yourself.

[QUOTE=cristina]Pamela, tell him that either you get a receipt or you call the guardia della finanze. Don't let them take advantage of you because you are a foreigner. It happens all the time and it is wrong but they get away with it because people don't want to cause problems.[/QUOTE]

I think it would be good to determine how often work is black in Italy....... Does anyone know?

If working on the black is a common occurance and a nationally accepted practise, then it's pointless trying to change something that's worked well for years........ if you are asking for something that's uncommon, then you might want to look elsewhere or expect to pay a premium.

[QUOTE=tuscanhills]I think it would be good to determine how often work is black in Italy....... Does anyone know?

If working on the black is a common occurance and a nationally accepted practise, then it's pointless trying to change something that's worked well for years........ if you are asking for something that's uncommon, then you might want to look elsewhere or expect to pay a premium.[/QUOTE]

K&D, Pamela had wished to do everything above board, and, had hired a professional to oversee the operation, she was therefor entitled to professional treatment, and, a correct and lawful settlement, including receipts for every aspect of the work.

Many builders and sub contractors will and do work in the black, both here and in the UK, and, I presume the rest of the world, if you listen to the stories, in Italy "Everyone does it", but, as was mentioned recently in an article in Italy magasine "What ALL of them ?" should be the immediate response, I think the matter would be different if for instance, you, or I were having some work done, and wanting to save a few bob, asked the contractor to work black, we'd also be accepting the possible consequences if the work proved to be less than perfect in the long run... ;)

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]Pamela had wished to do everything above board.......[/QUOTE]

That was the key to my question..... if that's how you want to do it, fine & dandy. I'd got the impression from a number of replies to the post that in other instances, the mountain was summoning Mohammed....... or is that the other way round?!?

Good luck with the work ;)

I remember these practices being rife in Ireland when I first started visiting there in the 80s. At that time the economy was pretty poor, unemployment was high and taxes were high. Most people did it to some degree, and everyone else turned a blind eye. These people still paid their taxes but, given the chance, pocketed a few pounds whenever they could.

As a community-spirited, law-abiding UK citizen I initially thought this practice was terrible but to understand why this practice was so widespread in Ireland, I had to try and put myself in their position. It's very easy for people like us, generally coming from stable and wealthy economies, to gasp in horror at such practices but if you're in an irregular low paid job with a family to support and the government is taking half of everything you earn, then it's very tempting to slip into this way of doing things.

With the increase in wealth and the strong economy, there's no longer any need for this practice to continue in Ireland and it has all but died away. It would be quite unusual now to come across this. However, I'm sure it hasn't gone completely and you'll always have certain sections of a community who will continue to work this way. Strangely though, I miss the way things worked here 20 years ago. There wasn't much money to be had but things were simpler and life was much less stressful.

Perhaps when Italy's economy picks up this practice will fade away.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm saying that it happens for a reason.
For the future, if you feel uncomfortable about it, it's better to try and avoid getting into one of these situations in the first place rather than going against the norm.

I have to say, though, €11,000 sounds like an awful lot for a perimeter wall, considering you provided the materials! Must be a big wall!

Derek

No idea how many hours he did ( we were in the UK). However he startd in March 2004 and when we moved into the house sans furniture etc on June 25 he was running to finish it , turning up at 7am on the dot.
However I have been informed by neighbours that he used to come along sometimes and then go off to other jobs. When I asked him why it took so long he said it was the snow. I believe it snowed down here for the first time in 25 years , so what a lovely excuse. ( The snow lasted a week) so I am led to believe.

You just have to laugh.... expensive laughter.... Incidently he is a little bloke , about 4 ft 11 inches with a massive moustache, speaks in dialect, so can hardly understand him,and shouts when he talks. Not important but just so that you get the full hilarious picture. As I said you have to laugh...
Meanwhile all this money where does it go ? Designer clothes ? No oooo
Lovely set of wheels No oooo

Pamela

Personally, I'd have no problem paying someone €500 or so, without worrying about associated paperwork, for the odd job here and the odd job there. Expecting you to do the same for a job valued at €11,000 is just taking the p***. I'd be very surprised if it was 'the norm' to do it to this degree. This is just greed.

Derek

I too hear all the time "everyone does it" but when we bought our house, none of the major work was done in the black. We live in a new complex of 30 townhouses and every single house went through the same workers and EVERYONE got receipts. Granted, for things like adding shut off valves to all of the sinks and toilets, no one worried about receipts but for all of the other major extras, you bet your bunny they did.

If you are paying €11,000 for labor only then you should be getting a detailed report on the hours worked. If they are asking for example €50 per hour that would be 220 hours. How many people worked? Again, as someone said, that is a HUGE sum of money for just labor.

Rule number one in house buying and renovations - PROTECT YOURSELF!

My sister's experience in Spain is that its only the brits that follow any rules if you speak to the locals they think we are mad.She hasn't and has lived there v.happy for 6 years without any fines,prison sentences etc.

If you have always played by the book in the UK its unlikely you will want to go local in italy but if you can bear to then why not?Any answers!!

Becky

My first geometre is refusing to give me an invoice as lots of the contractors were working black and he does not want to incriminate himself, he now wants to take us to court for non payment but without an itemised account I am not prepared to pay.
My new geometre thinks I should go to finance police but will I end up in the poo if I do even as an innocent foriegner!

[QUOTE=herealready]My first geometre is refusing to give me an invoice as lots of the contractors were working black and he does not want to incriminate himself, he now wants to take us to court for non payment but without an itemised account I am not prepared to pay.
My new geometre thinks I should go to finance police but will I end up in the poo if I do even as an innocent foriegner![/QUOTE]

That's absolutely disgraceful, you should discuss the problem with a lawyer I think before embarking on any action, good luck, and, well done for sticking to your guns.

Couple of tips ... if you want a receipt, formulate it to state that the work has been paid in full without actually indicating the sum. This is a good compromise.

Regarding the geometra, I assume his fee is a percentage of the construction costs. Then challenge his fee and ask him to demonstate such costs.

Generally the person/professional managing the project does not invoice you for all trades involved as this would create a tax liability.

David
[url]www.ourtoscana.com[/url]

Don't a lot of Brits complain saying that immigrants should adapt to the British way of life instead of bringing their own customs, etc., with them?
Well, all of us living here are immigrants, so maybe we should accept all the Italian culture, not just the parts that we like about it.
We are really guests in this country so is it really our place to try and change the system?

I see your point but what happens if I want to sell my house? I have to produce documents proving how much was spent. I also have to account for all this "black" money to my accountant here in Italy. He has now found that there are more cheque stubs with MM on them, for the electrician, plumber,tiler etc etc.... This means that the cheque looks as though I have had this money myself. When I called the architect he just did not want to know, he says the job is finished.
If the Guarda di Finanzia arrives on the doorstep, I shall remember what you said about being more "Italian",I am sure that will help. By the way my husband is Italian and I have lived in Italy before but never encountered all this in Milano, Rome or Torino. Any work done in the cities always had a proper invoice.
All I can say is whilst I become a "Good immigrant" these people are bankrupting us. We are supposed to shut up and take everything they throw at us. I have just had a quote for the driveway ( in the black) and they want 19000Euros plus I have to pay for the lorries to take all the waste soil away.
By the way I do not have a lot of land...............Just a normal sized garden.

[QUOTE=pamela catalano]I see your point but what happens if I want to sell my house? I have to produce documents proving how much was spent. I also have to account for all this "black" money to my accountant here in Italy. He has now found that there are more cheque stubs with MM on them, for the electrician, plumber,tiler etc etc.... This means that the cheque looks as though I have had this money myself. When I called the architect he just did not want to know, he says the job is finished.
If the Guarda di Finanzia arrives on the doorstep, I shall remember what you said about being more "Italian",I am sure that will help. By the way my husband is Italian and I have lived in Italy before but never encountered all this in Milano, Rome or Torino. Any work done in the cities always had a proper invoice.
All I can say is whilst I become a "Good immigrant" these people are bankrupting us. We are supposed to shut up and take everything they throw at us. I have just had a quote for the driveway ( in the black) and they want 19000Euros plus I have to pay for the lorries to take all the waste soil away.
By the way I do not have a lot of land...............Just a normal sized garden.[/QUOTE]

Despite what some people seem to believe it is NOT the norm to undertake major works in the black we never did.There's no way that i would be prepared to fork out Euro 19.000,00 without a written detailed preventivo up front,a part advance payment with saldo on state of the art completion of the job.Don't forget that you lose any rights to any kind of contestation once you're down that street whilst if it's all clear you have your rights.For example the various kinds of gravel have very different prices suppose they finished off your drive with a cheap rough "white" gravel rather than the better "red "gravel, and how many lorry loads of detritus have been calculated etc,is drainage contemplated as if not in torrential rain you could lose half your drive,is new top soil for the garden foreseen and if so how much
it's too much to be spending on a verbal basis.Having said that wherever earth movement is contemplated and lorries of stuff moved does come expensive,also there are strict laws on dumping waste materials especially for building sites and theoretically this has to be taken to special dump sites,in our area people risk prison for crimes like that .So paying good money for official disposal for stuff thats dumped down a cliff is not where it's at.I'm sure you'd agree.You wanna know something else,all our tradesman/artisans/plumbers/electricians etc were and are always paid by invoice and suprise whenever we need them they come straight away....so not all black is coal...perhaps.

Sebastiano,
I found your reply so informative, and luckily I have not agreed to anything with this builder. He could not start anyway until after all the festas ( after 6 January).
I totally agree with you that all the money should not be paid until a satisfactory job has been done. The most important points which you raise is the quality of materials used, and the point on the rainfall. It has rained for 16 days non stop here. Thanks for a very sensible answer, I have waited this long, so will carry on without a drive until I can find a company who will do a good job and not work " in the black"
Once more , many thanks.

[QUOTE=pamela catalano]Sebastiano,
I found your reply so informative, and luckily I have not agreed to anything with this builder. He could not start anyway until after all the festas ( after 6 January).
I totally agree with you that all the money should not be paid until a satisfactory job has been done. The most important points which you raise is the quality of materials used, and the point on the rainfall. It has rained for 16 days non stop here. Thanks for a very sensible answer, I have waited this long, so will carry on without a drive until I can find a company who will do a good job and not work " in the black"
Once more , many thanks.[/QUOTE]
Hello again.This is only marginally relevant to Pamela's immediate concerns,however does illustrate to those people who saw the wrong film(godfather?) or whatever and have the idea that "there are no controls "or "nothing like that actually happens", "everybody does it", "thats what the locals do" etc is completely illusory.
Whilst it is true that i run a business here (ie. more subject to control than a private abode) we recently have had several quite ruthless inspections from various agencies the last one being the work inspectorate who are HEAVILY clamping down on black labour as THEY SAID "In all it's forms and variants"
Whilst ,fortunately we run a clean show here so there were no particular instances they OFFICIALLY WARNED me that should they ever come across an uninsured worker including even some old guy doing a bit of spare time gardening,grass cutting or WHATEVER That just the fine started at Euro 50.000,00 and so on.What could happen EVEN to a private home owner could be ,for example, an accident with a chain saw,you CANNOT EVEN ask your neighbouring farmer to plough over a field for example and both parties could end up in deep water.None of this wants to be "verbal terrorism" neither is it to particularly exagerate the real risks BUT as we say nothing happens till it happens then the sh++t hits the fan.Another example is that with my neighbouring farmer we frequently exchange working favours we were both told that this was completely out of order however much it's common practice
and risks being sanctioned etc.Things have definitely changed and are continuing to do so.The bottom line is that if the friendly old man who comes to prune your trees cuts his hand off on your property you're risking losing it..

So if I accept the offer of a neighbour to help out with the olive harvest and I then look after his chickens while he's away one weekend, The Man From the Ministry is going to come around and make sure we both pay tax on the nominal value of the labour involved?

Gosh. Sounds like I'd be better off staying in Britain. Civil servants here can be officious and inflexible, but at least it's still possible to do friends a favour without having to fill in a form.

As far as the local odd-job man chopping off his hand while he's pruning my trees is concerned, is it really the case that the law can take my home away from me if someone is injured on my land due to a mistake they made? And if someone is injured on my land because of some mistake or error on my part, isn't that what the personal liability clauses in household insurance are intended to cover?

Al

[QUOTE=AllanMason]So if I accept the offer of a neighbour to help out with the olive harvest and I then look after his chickens while he's away one weekend, The Man From the Ministry is going to come around and make sure we both pay tax on the nominal value of the labour involved?

Gosh. Sounds like I'd be better off staying in Britain. Civil servants here can be officious and inflexible, but at least it's still possible to do friends a favour without having to fill in a form.

As far as the local odd-job man chopping off his hand while he's pruning my trees is concerned, is it really the case that the law can take my home away from me if someone is injured on my land due to a mistake they made? And if someone is injured on my land because of some mistake or error on my part, isn't that what the personal liability clauses in household insurance are intended to cover?

Al[/QUOTE]
the answer is basically yes,i mean the second part.There would be a complex "intreccio" of civil laws ie. civil law suit against you coupled with a state run in against you -labour laws etc etc.I know of a local who will not allow any artisans of any kind on his property if they cannot demonstrate that they are regularly insured employed or whatever.it's quite byzantine..
Anyway i'm not going to risk even a free lance helper any more....