1688 Legal ownership of my Car.

Another day another problem. The agency who handled the purchase of my car, just called to inform me that as I did not produce a Permisso di Soggiorno when I bought the car ( only my residence Permit until 2009, and my identity card) then I cannot have the car legally transferred over to my name.No one informed me of this in their office.
When I explained to her that I no longer have a PDS as the questura kept it when they gave me my residency permit, she insisted that without it I would not own the car. If you look at my thread on Identity Cards you will all appreciate the problems I had to get these documents. What do I do now go and apply for a PDS once more?
Since we moved here in June, it would appear that every single thing we try to do just brings worries. We have come here, paid a lot of money to have a nice house, we are spending money here, yet we are treated so badly by every department, commune, questura, agencies etc etc....
I would like to make a public apology to all the Italians living in England. When I used to ask them if they were mad, living in rainy old UK when they could be living in Bella Italia in the sunshine, with all the lovely food etc,they all used to say the same thing. " This is the best country on earth, we just go back to Italy for holidays this is our home". Scusi mi dispiace .

Category
Legal

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 10/25/2005 - 09:45

Oh Pamela I do feel for you - could you go back to the questura and ask for a photo copy?
I think the frustration of it all would really get to me - I long to live full time in Marche in a few years but these sorts of hassles fill me with dread. Its not easy is it. Hope you can take a deep breath, look at your lovely view and fight again another day.

M

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 10/25/2005 - 09:59

The agency are wrong, you have provided enough information to register the car, I am, however a bit confused by your time limited residency certificate, the Permesso is normally time limited, but the residency is not, or, at least in my case, that is the case... Your ID card proves your residency anyway, I realise how awkward this must seem, but you do need to check back with the agency.
Good Luck.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 10/25/2005 - 12:44

Dear GeorgeS,

I applied for residency in 2004 and they backdated it to then hence 2009 ,
( they gave me 5 years). I was also under the impression that it would be without time limit, but was so glad to get it, I did not question them . They just said " see you in 2009".

I plan to go back to the questura( 6 hours round trip) for a copy of the PDS but when he gave me the residency he told me I no longer needed it and put it into my file.So, I really do not think they will give me another, also if I request a copy it expired anyway by now.

Thanks to all for your replies, it really does help,

Pamela

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 10/25/2005 - 12:53

[QUOTE=pamela catalano]Dear GeorgeS,

I applied for residency in 2004 and they backdated it to then hence 2009 ,
( they gave me 5 years). I was also under the impression that it would be without time limit, but was so glad to get it, I did not question them . They just said " see you in 2009".

I plan to go back to the questura( 6 hours round trip) for a copy of the PDS but when he gave me the residency he told me I no longer needed it and put it into my file.So, I really do not think they will give me another, also if I request a copy it expired anyway by now.

Thanks to all for your replies, it really does help,

Pamela[/QUOTE]

Pamela, are you sure you're not talking about identity card ?
That document has a 5 years validity, while residency is a status you keep untill you stay in a specific comune, so without time limit.
I think (like George) that the agency is wrong.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 10/25/2005 - 13:17

Dear Pamela,

ACI in Rome gave me the details of an agency in Milan: Agenzia Magaglio SpA
02 2020 421 [url]www.magaglio.com[/url] - I spoke with a very nice lady named Valentina who informed me that EC citizens no longer require residency to buy a car (just an Italian domocile) and as GeorgeS and the Notaio have said residents don't require PdS. I don't know if it will be possible but you could try insisting that the vendor uses this agency to register the sale. This matter seems to cause as much heartache as any other on this forum and I wonder if someone shouldn't write to the British Embassy suggesting that they plead with ACI to inform all their regional offices of the latest rules. Good luck.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 10/25/2005 - 13:46

Thanks Notaio,

I have a green residence permit for a national of a memer state, dated 21.08.04 valid until 12.08.2009 . I also have an identity card which expires 22.09.2010.

One thing I have discovered in Italy, each region seems to apply it's own rules, this was issued in Potenza by the way.

Pamela

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 10/26/2005 - 02:16

Pamela, when you went to the questura, what exactly did you get instead of your PdiS? The Italian name not your translation? If it is a Carta di Soggiorno then that is all you ned as it is still a type of PdiS. When you say residency permit I assume you mean this. I think I have mentioned this before but residency permit is confusing (should be translated as stay permit) because there is also residenza (residency) which is something different.

So anyway, the dealership is wrong, as long as you supply a PdiS or CdiS and proof of residency, you are all set. If tyhey do not want to accept the CdiS tell them to contact the questura for further elaboration. You do not have to go back to the questura if you have the right documents. It is up to the dealership to learn the rules. Granted, the CdiS is rather new so maybe they have never seen one but it would take a 1 minute phone call for them to be informed.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 10/26/2005 - 07:30

Hi Pamela,

If you have an Italian Identity Card then this is all you need to purchase a car. My boyfriend recently purchased a car and this is all he needed.

You obviously had a valid Permesso di Soggoirno to get an Italian I.D. card in the first place.

Val

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 10/27/2005 - 04:15

[QUOTE=cristina]Pamela, when you went to the questura, what exactly did you get instead of your PdiS? The Italian name not your translation? If it is a Carta di Soggiorno then that is all you ned as it is still a type of PdiS. When you say residency permit I assume you mean this. I think I have mentioned this before but residency permit is confusing (should be translated as stay permit) because there is also residenza (residency) which is something different.

So anyway, the dealership is wrong, as long as you supply a PdiS or CdiS and proof of residency, you are all set. If tyhey do not want to accept the CdiS tell them to contact the questura for further elaboration. You do not have to go back to the questura if you have the right documents. It is up to the dealership to learn the rules. Granted, the CdiS is rather new so maybe they have never seen one but it would take a 1 minute phone call for them to be informed.[/QUOTE]

Cristina, you are quite correct had a good look at this card. There are nine different languages on the front. Italian :- CARTA DI SOGGIORNO IN CITTADINO DI UNA STATO MEMBRO DELLA C.C.E.
English :- RESIDENCE PERMIT FOR A NATIONAL OF A MEMBER STATE OF THE E.E.C
so, if I send a copy of this to the " jobsworth " demanding a PDS it should be ok ?

thanks

Pamela

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 10/27/2005 - 04:19

[QUOTE=valgee]Hi Pamela,

If you have an Italian Identity Card then this is all you need to purchase a car. My boyfriend recently purchased a car and this is all he needed.

You obviously had a valid Permesso di Soggoirno to get an Italian I.D. card in the first place.

Val[/QUOTE]

I know, but try telling that to some idiot behind an office desk. I think it also depends where in Italy you are, and the individual you are dealing with.
Thanks so much for your reply

Pamela

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 10/27/2005 - 08:46

[QUOTE=pamela catalano]English :- RESIDENCE PERMIT FOR A NATIONAL OF A MEMBER STATE OF THE E.E.C
so, if I send a copy of this to the " jobsworth " demanding a PDS it should be ok ?[/QUOTE] URgh, why do they always mess up translations to make it more difficult. Just one of my pet peeves.

Anyway, again, as long as you have the CdiS you do not need a PdiS and to be quite honest, the questura will not give you one. They serve the same purpose.

Also, in your other message you said that things may be done differently in different areas. Yes some little things may be done differently but NOT things like this (yes I know some legal things seem to get skirted but documents for residency etc., property and vehicle purchases, etc. are set by the state). Tell the idiot behind the desk that the CdiS is the same as the PdiS just that it is for EU members. I will lok for the information on this for you to print out and bring to the idiot (man there seem to be a lot of idiots working behind desks here)

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 10/27/2005 - 08:54

Okay, here is a page from the Polizia di Stato (questura's website) [url]http://www.poliziadistato.it/pds/cittadino/stranieri/carta.htm[/url]

Oh and this one is good [url]http://www.insenegal.org/25Immigrazione/Carta_Soggiorno.htm[/url] as it says on the first line "La Carta di Soggiorno è un permesso di soggiorno"

Last is my article on the Carta di Soggiorno [url]http://www.expatsinitaly.com/arrival/cartasoggiorno.htm[/url]

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 10/27/2005 - 10:46

In Italy (but may be in England too) there's a motto:
"stupids' mother is always pregnant." ;)
I totally agree with Cristina.
A carta di soggiorno is just a permesso di soggiorno [B]without end of validity[/B].
You can get it 5 (or 6, I'm not sure at the moment) years after you obtained your permesso di soggiorno.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 10/27/2005 - 11:16

Notaio, for EU citizens they can get it right away but it is only valid for 5 years whereas for someone like myself from America, it can be applied for after 6 years of legal residency and then it has no expiration date. My PdiS has no expiration date so I decided not to bother with the CdiS.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 10/27/2005 - 11:26

[QUOTE=cristina]Notaio, for EU citizens they can get it right away but it is only valid for 5 years whereas for someone like myself from America, it can be applied for after 6 years of legal residency and then it has no expiration date. My PdiS has no expiration date so I decided not to bother with the CdiS.[/QUOTE]

It's a sort of "green card" isn't it?