1780 DIY Electrics

that's tips more on conformity and hurdles than which wire goes where!

PPS if anyone has put in a new earth system in an old appartment (with no earth) I'd be happy to get technical.

Stick an earth rod in to the ground, run a 10mm cable from it to an earth block beside your fusebox (or 16mm depending on what your incoming supply cable size is) Run main bonding leads of 10mm to your gas and water pipes as near as possible to where they enter the house, supplementary bond your water pipes in the bathroom and under your kitchen sink with 6mm cable. Also if you have a central heating boiler you can bond all the pipes there.

That's what you would do in the UK, regs are probably not as tight about it in Italy though I would think.

As for rewiring in general, if you're not a sparky don't do it!!

[QUOTE=Flyingveepixie]Stick an earth rod in to the ground, run a 10mm cable from it to an earth block beside your fusebox (or 16mm depending on what your incoming supply cable size is) Run main bonding leads of 10mm to your gas and water pipes as near as possible to where they enter the house, supplementary bond your water pipes in the bathroom and under your kitchen sink with 6mm cable. Also if you have a central heating boiler you can bond all the pipes there.

That's what you would do in the UK, regs are probably not as tight about it in Italy though I would think.

As for rewiring in general, if you're not a sparky don't do it!![/QUOTE]

Although this would give you a very good Earth. I think that you would still be breaking the Italian Law, I am pretty sure that ANY work on the circuits in the house must be completed by a qualified Electrician, additionally they must make a declaration and, can be imprisoned for falsely declaring. BUT, I could be wrong...

Better in prison, alive than dead in the bath as the result of having been the shortest route between the screw on the faulty light switch and [I]terra firma[/I]!
You [B][U]might[/U][/B] be able to do the works yourself and then ask an electrician to certify that the impianto elettrico is in good shape alternatively run all the wires and have an electrician make the final connections at the consumer unit - what do you think George?
Otherise, in Italy, an often used alternative to re-wiring with an earth wire is the replacement of the Main Isolator Switch with a Residual Current Device.
This is what we are stuck with in our appartment because rewiring would be a major project that the owners don't want to undertake. The apt name for an RCD in Italian is [I]Salvavita[/I].

Here is a bit I plucked from a UK website about RCDs:
[I]RCDs (sometimes called Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers) are primarily designed to protect against electrocution (i.e. *death* from electric shock) by detecting current flowing to earth. Because under normal circumstances there should be very little earth current, they can be made very sensitive: 30 milliamps is common. Compare this with, say, 6 amps for a lighting MCB and it is obvious that an RCD provides far greater protection. This sensitivity also gives it the ability to detect other faults such as partial live/earth breakdown, which generates heat and can cause fires. However, it cannot protect against the less common live-neutral shock, and it does not protect against overloads so must always be used in conjunction with MCBs or fuses.[/I]
[I]The RCD DOES NOT GUARANTEE PROTECTION AGAINST ELECTROCUTION, and electrical circuits protected by it should be treated with the same respect as any other. But it does help greatly to ensure that an electric shock is an unpleasant rather than a fatal experience.[/I]

I understand your view sdoj, but, when I put myself in the Electricians shoes, I would be thinking seriously, whether I would be willing to certify someone else's work, my understanding is that the Electrician is taking on a defined role when signing the work off, the signing carries a Penal responsibility, the individual is held responsible in law and can, I understand, be jailed if an accident should be traced to a wiring fault. But, it's Italy... anything's possible. :eek:

if you put an earth in without installing all the earth wiring alongside the existing two wire cabling what good will it do........the rcd option is also one that will not work if the wiring has not been renewed....

there is no alternative to rewiring the whole house if you have a system which only has two cables....

it is also highly unlikely less than probable that an electrician will sign off any work he has not done..... however in most cases what you do in your own house is entirely up to you and will not be checked unless there is an accident from it....in which case you will end up in court for injuring/killing whoever has been affected and generally after that in prison.... providing you already have a mains connection and enel is not putting in a connection for the first time to the property.....

there is honestly no alternative to doing it properly..... and if you are a qualified electrician in england you will be able to easily handle it here.... providing like i say enel are not connecting in a brand new supply...and nobody ever gets injured by it

one thing about earths is that you hardly ever see them attached to plumbing......

around a gas boiler yes...its all heavily earthed and is part of the annual control they make on gas fired central heating that the electrics are also up to standard.....

the other thing is if you do live in an apartment there are more rigorous controls i would think regarding safety standards.... definetley if its a condo....that has a whole legal manuscript all to itself....

again the system here is entirely different anyway.... no ring circuits no fused plugs.... every light fitting and plug ... having its own 3 wires running to it.... all wires having different ratings as well....even down to the different standard type of piping to run the cabling through....which i believe has recently changed..... i presume if you are an electrician in england you will have to keep up with all the latest specs.... often throwing away outdated materials which do not meet new specs.... its pretty much the same here....

i would regard gas and electrical systems as two places that its best to pay up and get the proffesional in.... any mistakes ...at worst prison....insurance void....or god knows what else...

I rent an apartment that is part of a condominio that has no earth apart from in the elevator. I received a mild eletric shock from a screw on the outside of a light switch (the screw was brushing against a loose wire inside the switch). This worried me the more because it happened in the bathroom when I was wearing rubber soled shoes. I asked the landlord what he thought might have happened to me if I had been in the bath at the time. He said that I would never have been electrocuted because there is an RCD (salvavita) installed and that is so safe that that is all the law requires of them. Italian friends tell me that this situation is commonplace and are of the same opinion as my landlord that the law requires the impianto to be earthed [U][B]OR[/B][/U] an RCD to be installed.

I have read what I imagine is the correct regulation but I find paragraph 2 ambiguous - what do others think?
Legge 5 Marzo 1990, n. 46 - Art. 7 (Installazione degli impianti)
1. Le imprese installatrici sono tenute ad eseguire gli impianti a regola d'arte utilizzando allo scopo materiali parimenti costruiti a regola d'arte. I materiali ed i componenti realizzati secondo le norme tecniche di sicurezza dell'Ente italiano di unificazione (UNI) e del Comitato elettrotecnico italiano (CEI), nonché nel rispetto di quanto prescritto dalla legislazione tecnica vigente in materia, si considerano costruiti a regola d'arte.
[B]2. In particolare gli impianti elettrici devono essere dotati di impianti di messa a terra e di interruttori differenziali ad alta sensibilità [U]o[/U] di altri sistemi di protezione equivalenti.[/B]
3. Tutti gli impianti realizzati alla data di entrata in vigore della presente legge devono essere adeguati, entro tre anni da tale data (2), a quanto previsto dal presente articolo.

sdoj

i think you have to realise the rcd ...indeed i think you posted the description of how they work relies on the earth to trip it.... ie you might well have noticed in england when a light buld blows it will often trip out the mains supply.... so i think that you should find in your apartment that there are earth wires to all the electrical points....

...it is a strange thing here for those of us from the uk ...anyway ....that the electrical points in bathrooms do not seem to be highly protected...eg light switches on string....and yet they insist on having an alarm bell within the bathroom....

however as regards the regulations you quote.... they are all fine and correct....you should have a condominio rep ...apart from the owner that will be able to advise....the lift system anyway will be quite independant to the domestic supply and will also be more regulated.....

...to give you an example of sometimes in the past....or maybe in the present work was carried out for people...we hve an old house.... recently changed all the electrics on the ground floor....sort of a work area ....outbuildings... and i assisted the electrician.... at one stage as i was doing all the tracking out we removed the cover of an rcd mounted on the wall ....to check where the wires ran from it.... funny thing...no wires attached to it at all...obviously some enterprising electrician charged the previous owner...an oldish person...a fair bit of money to update her electrical sytem.... maybe spent a day or two hammering things... and then screwed the box on to the wall.....

i am sure regulations insisted some sort of wiring might aid in its capacity to function....

There are no earth wires in my apartment - not even on the high load cooker/water heater circuit - I have checked it myself. The RCD does work as it has been tripped several times.

People often confuse RCD (residual current device) with MCB (miniature circuit breaker). There is also a hybrid - RCBO (Residual Current Breaker with over-current protection).
An MCB is a modern replacement for a fuse, the purpose of which is to protect the wiring of its circuit from excessive current due to an overload or short-circuit.
An RCD is primarily designed to protect against electrocution by detecting current flowing to earth. Current operated RCDs are the norm in modern consumer units, they have no connection to earth circuits at all. They rely on detecting imbalances between the live and neutral currents.
An RCBO performs the functions of earth leakage and excess current protection, and is basically an RCD and an MCB combined.

sdoj...sorry to have misinformed over the rcd option...and to any others reading the post... the ideal system is the rcd.... and it does rely upon live/neutral imbalance.... there are areas which it does not help with if you get things wrong...ie live/neutral reversed...it wont work... below trip level leakages.... and it will not protect from all bad electrical circuit design... i would still maintain the best option for gas and electric unless you happen to practice the trade is to call in an expert here....

[QUOTE=Flyingveepixie]Stick an earth rod in to the ground, run a 10mm cable from it QUOTE]......

now this old (v old) town house has no ground (as in dirt) or earth (as in dirt).
It is built on rock but has a cellar with a softish bottom, sort of layers of antique mule poo and decomposed straw.
Mains water pipe is pvc (not so old).

Earth points.......?
Dig into floor of cellar?
Drill into rock, and plant earth rod?
Bury earth rod with mortar into stone wall?
Use candles in the bathroom?

Which would give the best (and acceptable) earth ?

leaving aside the question of the skill or origin of a given electrician, does anyone know where to get hold of the technical rules/specifications that define how a private residence in Italy should be wired and equiped to comply with latest laws.

Thanks for any input.

Patricio

[QUOTE=patricio]leaving aside the question of the skill or origin of a given electrician, does anyone know where to get hold of the technical rules/specifications that define how a private residence in Italy should be wired and equiped to comply with latest laws.

Thanks for any input.

Patricio[/QUOTE]

This is the only ruling I have found - paragraph 2 is a little ambiguous but I think it means that you need both an earth and an RCD. An eletrical wholesaler might help you design an impianto elettrico in accordance with Italian regulations, which are probably in line or will line up with the latest EC guidelines.

Legge 5 Marzo 1990, n. 46 - Art. 7 (Installazione degli impianti)
1. Le imprese installatrici sono tenute ad eseguire gli impianti a regola d'arte utilizzando allo scopo materiali parimenti costruiti a regola d'arte. I materiali ed i componenti realizzati secondo le norme tecniche di sicurezza dell'Ente italiano di unificazione (UNI) e del Comitato elettrotecnico italiano (CEI), nonché nel rispetto di quanto prescritto dalla legislazione tecnica vigente in materia, si considerano costruiti a regola d'arte.
2. In particolare gli impianti elettrici devono essere dotati di impianti di messa a terra e di interruttori differenziali ad alta sensibilità o di altri sistemi di protezione equivalenti.
3. Tutti gli impianti realizzati alla data di entrata in vigore della presente legge devono essere adeguati, entro tre anni da tale data (2), a quanto previsto dal presente articolo.

a local architect/geometra will most probably have the latest regulations available and most probably the book that has the rules...

the earth has to be placed outside your building as an eath functions better in wet than dry areas.... in fact if you attampt burying it in rock it will most probably not function at all

[url]http://www.kevinboone.com/PF_cableselection_web.html[/url]

this might be helpful in regards the principles and also explain maybe the difficulties of attempting to me what is a skilled job off ones own back....

however it gives good details on the different methods of obtaining a safe electricity supply within ones house.... no doubt there will be different rules here.... you might even try the local bookshop...i have often noticed without much interest books on various subjects regarding regulations in building etc....

sorry to not be of more specific help