1819 Permesso di Soggiorno

Basically, the permesso di soggiorno (or carta di soggiorno) is what you need to stay in Italy for longer than 8 days. Residenza is obtained AFTER you get your PdiS or CdiS and once you have a permenant place to live (not a hotel). The PdiS and CdiS must be applied for at the local questura but the residenza is handled by the comune. Once you have your residenza you can ask for a carta d'identità (yes, there is a specific order for everything here it seems).

You can read about these items on my site here [url]http://www.expatsinitaly.com/arrival/paperwork.htm[/url] and also an article on the Carta di Soggiorno here [url]http://www.expatsinitaly.com/arrival/cartasoggiorno.htm[/url]

[QUOTE=romagna mia]Can anyone let me know the pros and cons os Permesso di Soggiorne versa Residenza? We own a house in Italy which we use for long periods each year but intend to keep a base in UK for tax etc. also, when or how can you get an Italian identity card?[/QUOTE]

The tax base issue is not necessarily so clear cut. There can be a number of reasons to want to take an Italian tax base, for example if you earn dividend income and if you want to dispose of capital assets.

It is possible to be tax resident in both countries at the same time, at which point the tax treaty tie-breaker clause is considered.

"Tax residency" is established in Italy if you have an habitual abode or a permanent home in the country, at which point the tie breaker clause becomes especially important.

[QUOTE=Michael J Murphy ACA]The tax base issue is not necessarily so clear cut. There can be a number of reasons to want to take an Italian tax base, for example if you earn dividend income and if you want to dispose of capital assets.

It is possible to be tax resident in both countries at the same time, at which point the tax treaty tie-breaker clause is considered.

"Tax residency" is established in Italy if you have an habitual abode or a permanent home in the country, at which point the tie breaker clause becomes especially important.[/QUOTE]

Would I be right in thinking that if you are a tax resident in Italy, but not an Italian ctizen, Italian tax authorities will only be interested in income which is derived in Italy and not other worldwide income?

Thanks to Cristina, useful info. Infact we got our Codice Fiscale without any problem before we had either purchased our house or obtained a PdiS!

Thanks also to M.J.M. and Gerry, we dont wish to move our tax affairs from U.K. but wonder if obtaining residency means we have to?

Just wanted to clarify a couple of points:
- The Permesso di Soggiorno is necessary for non-EU nationals who wish to live and work in Italy (only in the case of non-EU nationals the 8 days will apply, for the rest EU citizens are quite free to spend as much time as they like in another EU country), if you are British you would only need to apply for a Carta di Soggiorno which you can do if you live in Italy for more than 3 months a year. This is entirely your choice, you do not HAVE to. The Carta di Soggiorno may be useful if you wish to start a business activity or work in Italy. The local questura will be able to tell you how to go about obtaining a Carta di Soggiorno.
- With regards to taxation, I am not an expert to tell you (you'd need to discuss this with an accountant) if it would be of advantage to you to pay all your taxes in Italy nor if this would work out cheaper than the UK taxation. However I can tell you that in the EU there are agreements whereby you do not get taxed twice on the same income source. For example, I am and Italian national, I have lived and worked in the UK for a few years (wonderful experience), and paid the taxes in the UK accordingly. At the same time I owned a property in Italy for which I paid the appropriate taxes in Italy, the Italian government does not charge for an income which is already taxed in another EU country and viceversa.

Although it is true that with the start of the EU citizens of the EU should not have to apply for permission to live in another EU country, in Italy, you do have to. [url]http://www.poliziadistato.it/pds/cittadino/stranieri/st1.htm[/url] I am sure that if someone wanted to stay without they could but to open a bank account, see a doctor, etc. etc. they would have to have permission. You also cannot get residence without a PdiS or a CdiS and without residency you cannot get the lower tax rate when a house is purchased and you cannot buy a car.

I totally agree with Eliana on the subject of the different permesso's. My wife Sallie and myself have been living in Italy for the last 7 weeks and originally applied for the PdiS, as we did not know anything different.On the day we applied an italian friend met us at the Questura to sign one of the forms for us and decided to come into the interview with us.He did most of the talking to the LOVELY FEMALE POLICE PERSON.There seemed to be a lot of tone changes in their voices and i could see that there were some disagreements by their mannerisms.Anyway she spoke english and said that there was no money in our bank account, but we tried to explain that the money was there and enough to buy a really nice house,then i told her i received a pension from a previous employer, and i showed her the amount but she still did not believe this to be the truth.The last blow was that,according to her our marriage certificate was not legal inItaly as she had seen one with a stamp on the back, so sent us away with our tails between our legs, and to get the certificate legal. Ihad to phone Uk and find what she wanted and it is called an apostile, and has to be obtained at the legalization office in London.Isent it there had it stamped ,which costs £19. I ventured into the Immigration Office in the town asking about Language courses, and they said there were many but these were during the day, i replied saying GOOD as i cannot do anything else as i was waiting for Pdi S's.They said you need CdiS as you are a brit.Their legal guy is now dealing with it but does not want to upset the lovely police lady, although he said SHE IS WRONG so we still wait Cheers Brendon

[QUOTE=Gerry]Would I be right in thinking that if you are a tax resident in Italy, but not an Italian ctizen, Italian tax authorities will only be interested in income which is derived in Italy and not other worldwide income?[/QUOTE]

No. If you are Italian tax resident you are taxed on your worldwide income. I assume you are from the UK in which case deemed residency could be an issue. In other words you can be tax resident in both countries.

Being a non-citizen only offers advantages if you leave Italy for a tax haven. Italy has very prescriptive anti-avoidance laws one of which is that a citizen leaving for a tax haven is still within the cluthces of the Italian tax man.

Michael at [email]michael@mjmurphyaccounts.com[/email]

[url]www.mjmurphyaccounts.com[/url]

[QUOTE=romagna mia]Thanks to Cristina, useful info. Infact we got our Codice Fiscale without any problem before we had either purchased our house or obtained a PdiS!

Thanks also to M.J.M. and Gerry, we dont wish to move our tax affairs from U.K. but wonder if obtaining residency means we have to?[/QUOTE]

It depends on the outcome of the tie breaker rule as discussed above. :)

Michael at [email]michael@mjmurphyaccounts.com[/email]

[url]www.mjmurphyaccounts.com[/url]

I have been told that as a resident of Italy (my wife and I are both US citizens) that the only income that Italy would want tax on would be whatever we earned in Italy and not worldwide. We still pay taxes in the US.
Does this conform to your understanding?
Thanks,
Gary

Suggest you take a look at Cristinia's excellent site as mentioned earlier in this thread. Sure you will find the answer there.