1873 In Response to Will Bialey....

In a previous thread, posted yesterday, another user of this forum wrote:

[FONT=Tahoma][FONT=Comic Sans MS]"When i asked Giambrone (and other lawyers) what services they could provide, there was little, or nothing they could do (perhaps get the codice fiscale, which i obtained with very little hassle myself) which someone else who you HAVE to pay (agent/notaio) does for you anyway. To me, it seems like they are useful only if you want someone to hold your hand through the process, and 1500+ seems like alot to pay for moral support to me"[/FONT][/FONT]

I have just read again some of the major threads posted in the legal section of this FORUM over the last few months and I have decided to out together a collection of legal gems, which fully confirm the fact that "[COLOR=Blue]the lawyers are useful only if you want someone to hold your hand[/COLOR]" and that "[COLOR=Blue]£1500+ seems a lot to pay for[/COLOR]" (especially when you are going to spend £150,000+ on a house)

Most of the advice given by the Notaio and Charles Josephs has been invaluable, but most of the times it just falls in deaf ears! ).....here it goes....hold tight!

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Wishful Thinker: VENDOR GONE BANKRUPT[/COLOR]
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On of the vendors (there are 8 or 10 who jointly own the property) has apparently gone bankrupt. We were due to complete next Friday (acting so far on only proposta d'aquisto - no money changed hands yet). Does anyone know how long the personal bankruptcy procedure takes - effectively when might I be able to buyt, if at all?

[COLOR=Red]Charles Josephs: PRELIMINARY CONTRACT[/COLOR]
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The new legislation: Decreto Legislativo 122 introduced on 20/6/2005 includes some important changes with regards to the preliminary contract, offering greater protection for buyers.

Apart from the fact that developers must now provide buyers with guarantees, when entering into a contract with an agent/property developer to build your house, the preliminary contract must also contain much more information (it is a mandatory requirement), of which the most important include:
1)Maximum build times (termini massimi di esecuzione della costruzione) required for completion.
2)Details of all building permissions, as per the provisions made in the planning laws (concessioni & permessi edilizi), which relate to your building project. Il Sole 24 Ore (7/7/2005) dedicated 2 whole pages to the contratto preliminare. The article highlights the importance of this contract, something that many overseas buyers seem to overlook and willingly entrust to people who are not suitably qualified to prepare.

[COLOR=Red]Peter and Jan: CONTRACTS WITH ARCHITECTS[/COLOR]
We are new at this so please forgive any errors.
Can any one offer advice on legal representation - briefly, we entered into a contract with an architect as Director of Works in 2001 for a restoration project. We received the key in middle of 2003. A catalogue of problems ensued due to bad workmanship and lack of supervision which we have been endeavouring to correct at substantial expense. We withheld the last payment of a nominal amount to offset against expenses. In July 2005, we received via the architect's lawyer a revised Contract supposedly registered with the Council of Architects for substantially increased fees on the basis that we had not been charged according to the official scale. We are now threatened with an Injunction for Payment at Tribunal. Does anyone know if there is a basis in Italian Law for this action.

[COLOR=Red]Notaio’s Reply:
You need to take contact AS SOON AS POSSIBLE with an italian lawyer.
If there is an Injunction for Payment (decreto ingiuntivo) and you do not take legal action against it before the Tribunal (within 40 days from the notification of the injunction), you have no more possibilities to contest the injunction and you simply MUST pay it.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Red]JulieD: PRE EMPTION RIGHTS
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We bought a cottage in Lunigiana, Northern Tuscany, 2 and a half years ago. 13 months after initial registration, a bailiff turned up at our home in England to serve papers on us - a claim from a neighbour, who was a registered farmer, on our land (a small vineyard, which also serves as our garden), due to a "pre-emption right". This case has now been adjourned 3 times by the court.. The next court hearing is in Sept. The court keeps adjourning the case, seemingly to allow the claimant to get his act together

[COLOR=Red][COLOR=Red]Notaio’s Reply: PRE EMPTION RIGHTS[/COLOR]

I'm afraid you'll wait for a long time for the sentence.
It's not the judge that's adjourning the case, but probably it's just the procedure (long and complicated) that needs it.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Red]TrulloMartinaFranca: PRE EMPTION RIGHTS[/COLOR]

We have a little tale to tell for those of you who haven't made the step to buy yet and how not to believe everything your agent tells you.

When putting in our offer and since, we checked with the agent on a number of occasions that neighbours and relatives had signed away all their rights to our property. We were told that this was being dealt with and not to worry.

Us being Mr and Mrs Sceptic from Britain asked for evidence that this had actually been done. No evidence arrived so we rang the agent. The agent said that we weren't to worry about this as it was a waste of time getting any of these signatures and the best way is to register the full price of the property, that way the farmers wouldn't want to pay the higher price anyway. Although we had little knowledge of the law we didn't feel this was right.

In the following weeks we were told that suddenly all the documents had been sent to the neighbours and not to worry as they had all signed. Then were told well actually they haven't as one is being difficult and won't sign because he wants us to buy his land. Then we were told due to the difficult neighbour, official documents had to be issued and as by law this takes 30 days so the completion date would have to be delayed. (we understood it should be 60 days and thought this had already been done!)

We were then told due to this diffecult neighbour that the completion date had to be delayed yet again to the end of September, the original was the beginning of July! (nothing to do with the agent of course!)

We hasten to add that this is now in the hands of our newly appointed lawyer and a big thank you to this forum because without all the information gained from here (in particular Mr Joseph) we may have just believed our agent in the first place and then possibly be in the same situation as Julie or worse.

[COLOR=Red]Glen B: PRE EMPTION RIGHTS[/COLOR]

This law is an absolute nightmare.

I was in the process of buying a house, in a village with some olive trees in the 100M2 garden. Whilst looking at the house - a neighbour came along and indicated they still wanted to work on the land.
I thought - as the house was in a village it would not be agricolo - but it was - it was agricolo urbano!!!

JHowell recommended that I get signatures - which I tried - but got told by the agent noone was interested in the land, but I couldnt have signatures.

Then the vendor put the price of the house up 10%. I have had to walk away - after paying legal fees.

[COLOR=Red]Robert: PRE EMPTION RIGHTS[/COLOR]
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be careful,be very careful
we were nearly caught out when we bought and we know people who were and who had to buy out the neighbouring farmer who exercised his right to buy-it cost them a a lot

[COLOR=Red]RegMiller: TAXATION[/COLOR]

The notaio says that the system works but has no legal sense and that the only reason the system works is because post litigation is low. Well what if as Laura72's post intimates post litigation becomes high. Also, why does he want to persuade us to pay more taxes if we're not talking about malpractice?

I suppose if we imagine the situation years ago when the amounts of money involved were paltry (or indeed poultry) it all wouldn't have mattered so much. But these days the idea of paying say E100k with a cheque and E120k from a very large brown envelope gives me the willies.

It all sounds very, very, very dodgy to me. More dodgy in fact that a sunny day in Windermere.

[COLOR=Red]Dave and Denise: FINES FOR ILLEGAL BUILDINGS[/COLOR]

We are trying to buy a property in Abruzzo which has had a number of legal / ownership complications, the latest of which is a portico which was apparently built without planning permission. We are considering negotiating a reduction in the purchase price, in case we have to pay a fine to the comune for this illegal portico. Does anyone have any idea how much such a fine might be? We have also been told that our options would be to either pay this fine (to legalise the portico) or to have it demolished, and we don't really know which would be the more expensive option.

[COLOR=Red]Wishful Thinker: AUSTRALIAN BUYERS[/COLOR]

Hi there, folks, have been waiting ages for the forum to come back! I went to Italy in early january. My wife could not attend, so I had a "procura speciale" (power of attorney) notarised and apostiled etc., for me sign her part.

But I wasn't allowed to sign for myself, as I have an Australian passport! I had never heard of this before, but the notaio was adamant: since it wasn't possible for Italians to freely buy property in Australia, then an Australian could not buy property in Italy!

He was happy for my wife to buy the house, but then the procura was wrong for that purpose. If I had a company, then he would be happy for me to sign on behalf of my own company, provided that I had all the "powers of the company" etc translated and notarised etc.
Why does nobody ever mention this rather important matter?