1954 Concerns getting started...going nowhere

[QUOTE=RegnEl]
Can anyone tell me if this is normal practice, it has taken us 11 months of constant meetings with the geomotra (and the estate agent) to get the plans drawn and we are still awaiting approval from the communie.

All help and advice is gratefully received.[/QUOTE]

This is most definitely NOT normal practice, permission from the comune should only take a few months at the most. I do not see how your geometra can justify the costs let alone the time involved. Demand a break down of his costs, usually they charge a % of the project costs ( I think it is usually about 10%), plus a % (2 or 4, I cannot remember exactly how much) for their national pension fund plus tax. For all the plans we had drawn up, including revisions when we changed our minds, our geometra fee was approx 1/4 of what you quote, so, unless your project is enormous, I suspect something has gone seriously wrong. A geometra should be involved in the project from start to finish and should oversee the whole thing so he is no doubt planning to send you more bills in the future!!!
Too late now, but generally the advice given here is never to trust a geometra suggested by the selling estate agent and only use one who has been independently recomended. You do not say whereaabouts in Le Marche you are, but I am sure someone on this forum would be able to recomend another reliable and trustworthy geometra in your area. Sack the first!

I agree
In several ways you seem to have been taken advantage of.
Forgetting the notaio and translator we signed the rogito for our house in Le Marche in December 2003 and the builders are now up to first floor level AND we have had a series of problems without which we could probably have nearly finished the house by now so I reckon your progress has been slow and it has also been very expensive.
Can't understand why communication has to be via agent.
All in all I'd get a new geometra though it will cost you to get out of your predicament.

Where abouts are you in Le Marche? We may be able to help in recommending a geometra wfos daughter is also an architect and speaks English if there is a language problem if we can be of any help please contact us via our web site.

Thanks all for your words of advice, you are quite right it has been a costly experience along with disheartening.

We are located in Cupra Montana, province of Ancona, and if anyone can recommend a geomotra in the area we could use it would be much appreciated.

I appreciate that we will have to pay this bill to the geomotra, but are we able to just sack him or are there further implecations.

Again thank you so much for your help...

I can't say if it would be legal to sack the geometra.In England it wd be but that's another thing.IF you sack him you must get the original drawings and calculations he has done and all other relevant documents like perhaps a geologists report.You'll probably find your new geometra has to prepare his own drawings but at least the old ones will give him a start.We had to change architects so have been down this road.
Don't know a geometra in Cupramontana but I know people who might, so contact me if no-one on the forum comes up with a recommendation.

Ronald,Sano-People here should be warned about this geometra but how do you do it?

have you tried to send a PM to Charles of magicalmarche, who is a regular user of this forum? I think he is a Senator.....:p

He usually offers impartial advice on these matters and it may be worth asking him to recommend you a good geometra in le marche.

Hiya, don't be disheartened, all of us (unless we are very lucky) encounter some hitches along the way - and usually to do with finance or lack of it! Take a look at the Magical Marche site - Charles has some good connections and may well be able to help.

We are close to San Ginesio, so don't know of anyone close to you re geometras, however we would use an architect for anything else we do. If you'd like a chat - happy to assist and am in the uk at the moment on 07765 145380

regards and welcome to Marche
Pam,

Thanks to you all for your lovely words of encouragment, it's really nice to know we are not alone and there are so many lovely people offering there support.
I just don't know what I would have done without this Forum.

Havn't got any advice as such but just wanted to say best wishes, good luck and hope everything will turn out ok in the end, which I'm sure it will and you will soon be able to enjoy your wonderful new home.

[QUOTE=RegnEl]
We are located in Cupra Montana, province of Ancona, and if anyone can recommend a geomotra in the area we could use it would be much appreciated.
...[/QUOTE]

Sorry, as I am not in your area I cannot recomend a geometra. Find one who is in your comune and is used to working with the local planning regulations - every comune seems to have their own little quirks, likes and dislikes so it is imortant to have someone who knows and has expereince of dealing with the local planning department. Ask neighbours who they would suggest and who to avoid, or perhaps someone will come up with something on the forum. Either way I hope it all works out in the end. What type of contract did you have with the first one, hopefully it will not be to traumatic/difficult to terminate it.
Good Luck.

Can any one advise me about drawing up a contract with a geometra.I will meet ours in February to arrange for some work to be done on our roof. What I want him to do is to get me 2 quotes from local builders plus a technical report on the roof so we know what can be saved and what will go.Then to submit plans to the comune.

I am presuming he will give me a form to sign with the figure he will charge us in %... 6% seems to be the norm and the details of his responsibilities and a timescale.

After the roof is done we are going out to carry out all of the rest of the work ourselves so will not need to use him apart from when we need permits and possibly to find an electrician.but It would be nice to be on good terms with him so we can ask his opinion from time to time.

What I want to avoid is getting out there and just getting a verbal agreement with nothing in writing so I need to make myself clear beforehand so he can bring any paperwork with him.He is not so hot on this!!

Any advice please?

Becky

we were advised by other users of the forum to get a proper legally binding contract (i think it is called "contratto di prestazione professionale" or "contato di apalto" but I do not know what the differences are), because this would limit the possibility of being taken to court afterwards. Be careful if you sign the document written by the geometra without an independent expert advising you about the consequences of your signature.

You would have a proper agreement as to what the geometra/director of work would do and the confirmation that they can not exceed the estimate agreed without a valid reason. I think that overcharging is the norm in Italy and if you seek legal advice afterwards, it would cost you ten times more in legal fees.

apparently, the amount of foreing people being taken to court because they refuse to pay twice/three times the original amount quoted by the geometra is increasing, and therefore hiring an independent lawyer at this point would save you a lot of money and problems in the future.

... wise words in the previous post and be careful about trying to sack/switch anyone after you have signed them either as director of works ....or indeed any proposal to do anything....

they have a dastardly habit here for billing you for loss of projected earnings if you change your mind..... and it works out at quite a high percentage.... they often get you to sign somethging having verbally quoted you figures and then after the plans are drawn up etc they tend to be a lot more...

ie normal geometra fees 9- 12 % .... but if a qualified engineer as well 12 - 15 5 as if they are not they will need one ...and that will be charged say at 4 %.... then there are geoligists .... another professional fee to add in.... make sure in general that who is selected has good contacts in the commune as well as professional capabilities....

again i will state and in fact i did not use this way.... but it makes a definite amount of sense to me after reading all the problems on here.... use a solicitor to start..... before you sign anything.... to do with buying.... it will stand you in good stead for future negotiations and will maintain a degree of respect from the italian proffesionals you deal with in the future ...because they will know that you have legal representation on everything you have future plans for.... i know this cannot help much in this case .... but hopefully those reading with an idea of buying or building will take note....

and in fact not all estate agent geomtra tie ups are bad..... many offices have notries , architects estate agents all in one .... two reasons... professionals are on hand ...and hopefully money stays within the firm.... in a way it makes sense.... and in most cases it works..... but dont depend on luck and nice smiles..... get it all checked out first

i almost sound like i work for one of these uk solicitor firms .... and initially i was set against the idea of their use..... however reading threads which have stated their costs i now have to agree with their use....and reading cases like the original posting it makes even more sense.... and having had experience of what italian solicitors charge at i can tell you the prices quoted and the fact they are binding as in the quote being given before they do any work... is much cheaper....so you know where you stand ... in my mind a senseable and reassuring way to start your buying process/building project here

and be very careful about how you handle bills that come in from these sharper practitioners.... once billed you have limited time to respond or pay.... to contest and i am not exactly sure you only have aprox 30 days otherwise its too late.... to register the fact... anyway its not too long...never ignore any bit of paper here....

These posts are very helpful.

I am becoming a bit wary of the geometra who has been involed with the sale of our house due to the fact he seems very hard to get hold of even for the agents and I can imagine having all sorts of problems with him.

I've asked the agents to supply me with a reference from a buyer who has employed him.I feel bad doing this as he is so nice and helpful when we meet.

I don't want to sign any thing until I am confident that he's ok and then I will only get him for the roof, nothing else until we can trust him.

Hi, I read your posting a week or two ago and could not believe the similarities with our own situation - also in Le Marche - near Servigliano. Our agent also selected our geometra for us. This was two and a half years ago, when we bought the house. We were told by the agent when we made the purchase that the house would be completed for a year later! How naive we were. Firstly there was the problem with the water - until someone else renovating a house near ours needed to renovate and then the water suddenly happened. The builders were delayed with other jobs. The plans took quite a while and they are only being approved completely now. We were given a date for the building work to begin, which was in April of this year. Then there was another delay. And then there was another. Then at the end of June the agent e-mailed and asked us to find someone else to manage our project - oh, and some other builders too! We then met with an architect when we were there in July and began the business of changing over. Then the original project manager wanted the job back. We said that would not be possible. Then she very strongly advised us to use the original geometra and his builders to do the work as it would be cheaper for us than our new company. Then she sent us a bill for her work so far even though she dropped the job. Now we are waiting for the geometras bill for his work so far and not a stone has moved. Needless to say, the house is now in a worse state than when we began! However, we are still proceeding with the project because we like the place so much. My brother also bought in Force and in spite of immense legal problems he is actually moving forward and the work is in progress. Rosebee.

I hope you will excuse me if I introduce myself in your forum without "presentation", but from two days, accidentally, I have uncovered this forum and I have begun to read you and your life in Italy: I'm Italian and I'm interested in your experiences in Italy, I read also about some your problems here. I have lived for some time abroad and I can understand your problems: languages, laws, local uses; but also I'm an architect and reading in this (but also in others) topic I am sorry for these types of difficulties, more: I am a bit pissed for some of these problems [U]that had not to exist[/U] and I decided to write somethings about the relate with professionals technicians. This even if my English is not so good...
First of all: when you nominate a "professional" to work for you, you both have rules to respect. I know my obligations towards my customers as Architect but the same is for the Engineers and the Geometricians.There are some different competences between these three categories and precise rules for each of them exist, there are common and general rules from laws to respect and specific rules for professionals from "Codice Deontologico Professionale" to which professionals must refer to. Unfortunately you can find (like everywhere) differences between individuals people or, simply, some misunderstandings can occur: for this the "Ordine Professionale" (Architects and Engineer) or "Collegio Professionale" (Geometri) beyond for the associate professionals also have to attend for their customers including control of professional fee. The first suggestion I can give to you is: you always have to ask for an estimate for the professional fee before to entrust the job, the percentages on which the parcel is calculated are not “to fantasy” but stabilished by laws and even if often is really difficoult to calculate it before to do the work this can give you a "reference frame" for your bill. You must know that not all the professional job must/have to be calculated on percentage basis: some are calculated for hours of job, some others can be calculated with a "forfait" fee. Also, expenses made by the professional in reference to your job must be added to the fee, ask for them and if they are calculated on a "forfait" percentage basis of the fee or "on documents" of expenditure.
Variations on basic fee can exist: as an example when there are particular difficulties (historical buildings under artistic protection or with structural problems or also more simply of difficult far accessibility because over a mountain with no roads) but these must be cleared and quantify to you in the "Lettera di incarico" (Letter of assignment) that the professional will ask you to sign when you will decide to committe to him the job. In this document must be write also the types of job requested to the professional and the times to have plans and documents ready from him.
If you have not asked or specified the fee that you will have to pay before the job was done and you want to be sure to pay the right money you can address directly to the Professional Order to which the professional a it belongs (architects, engineers, geometricians) that on your request they could control and “vidimare” the fee (officially certify that it is correct) .

A "note" for "struggling" Rosebee: when the first professional refused the job he had to give to you valid motivations for this and he had for first to look for a collegue to supply and replace him, even if was the agency to make in connection you two . The interruption of a professional assignment have to be motivated because this may damage the customer (or in opposite way the professional if the engagment is interrupt by customer). Of this possible damage the professional can be thought responsible. But, as you can undestand, it's difficult to claim him and to defend yours rights if there is not a write document (to be clear: also verbal agreement have legal right, but it's more difficult to define a controversy only by them), so, once again, looking for a professional: ask for his references, clearly explain all your requests and your necessities, ask for his fee, request to be informed about the estimated time needed to realize what you want and the money to do. Take of this some safety "tolerance" (not only intend this in a "philosopycal way": really works of building restoration can be of difficoult pre-calculation , the important thing is that you are informed about this when necessary: extraordinary and unforeseen works must be declared and submitted to you during the work so you can control the progressive amount of the expense.

To Bradley uk:
"Contratto di prestazione professionale" (also "Lettera di Incarico professionale) is the agreement for the professional job engagement with a professional.

"Contratto di Appalto" is referred to the house-builder or other companies who have to realize some part of the building (as example electrician, carpenter) when these work are not included in a single contract "all inclusive". Before the "Contratto di Appalto" one "Capitolato dei lavori (e delle forniture)" must be edited by your professional, in it all the works required (in typology, quantities and prices) must be detailed, the same for supply parts (forniture) needed like tiles, ceramic fixture for bath and so on. Clearly in "Contratto di Appalto" also times of start and end of the works , penalties for delay and amount and time progression of the payments must be declared.

I hope that my English is readable from you, sorry for grammar mistakes, I wrote because I would like that nobody had to fight for being able to have an home here. You can have difficulties, but this in a "normal way" and I believe that a good professional can help you in this. I hope too that something of what I have written here can be of some help to someone of you.

My best regards to all you.

Franco

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Obviously, before appointing the tecnico (even verbally), irrespective of whether he/she is an architect or geometra, it is wise to establish fees and contractual conditions beforehand. As Franco says, when you appoint the tecnico, you do it via a lettera of incarico. For architects this is called: [/FONT][/SIZE]

[CENTER][B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]INCARICO PER PRESTAZIONI PROFESSIONALI DELL’ARCHITETTO[/SIZE][/FONT][/B][/CENTER]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][B]PER OPERE DI EDILIZIA E DI ARREDAMENTO[/B][/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]This spells out exactly what you are getting and what you will be paying. It also spells out what the procedure is in the event of a dispute between you and the architect. Do not enter into any agreements without this letter. Moreover, make sure that it has been translated properly and vetted by an independent third party so that you fully understand your rights.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]If you are still in doubt then my suggestion is to draw up a written, preliminary agreement stipulating that the incarico, which you are just about to confer upon the tecnico, is to be conditional upon the following limitation:[/FONT][/SIZE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]“limitatamente alla fase di ottenimento della Concessione o Permesso di Costruire” and that “l'importo della prestazione limitatamente a quella fase” [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]In other words that the agreement is limited to the obtaining of building permissions only and that the amount of compensation agreed is limited to that phase of work. By doing this you have no legal obligation to award the impending contract to the tecnico, the only exception being that you would have to pay for services already provided (although you must clearly stipulate what the fee will be).[/FONT][/SIZE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]With regards to project management, once you have given the incarico to a professional architect or geometra , who may also take on the role of Works Director, you do not need to waste your money in appointing so-called project managers, especially (like the one mentioned in Rosebee’s case) those who have no knowledge whatsoever of the stringent building laws that are currently in force. For anyone who is interested, the DPR Decreto del Presidente della Repubblica 6 Giugno 2001, No. 380 Testo unico delle disposizioni legislative e regolamentari in materia edilizia e urbanistica refers.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Just because someone has overseen the restoration of their own properties, this doesn’t mean to say that they have the requisite skills in managing a building project or managing builders and craftsmen. Unless the person has the relevant background, skills and qualifications, then don’t even get involved as it can only lead to trouble The flip side of the coin is that you can also get into trouble with a professional architect or geometra (as some forum members have already discovered) so it pays to establish the ground rules right at the very start.[/SIZE][/FONT]