1975 Central Heating System

I'd recommend gas - ideally mains gas if you are on it.

Otherwise oil or bottled gas [a big tank] will do to run hot water and central heating

Don't forget that a open log fire is very 'user friendly' on cool evenings - mine gets a 'right old bashing'
[My daughter has been known to light in in Midsummer, because she thinks its one of the highlights [no pun intended] of any stay]

Thanks Alan. Do you know if it's possible to use a fire to heat the central heating system in addition to having a gas system (thereby saving on the gas when the fire is lit)?

[QUOTE=umbriabuyer] Do you know if it's possible to use a fire to heat the central heating system in addition to having a gas system (thereby saving on the gas when the fire is lit)?[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is. This is the way most rural Italians seem to heat their houses. There are many different systems offering more or less the same thing, the best thing to do would be to go into your local fireplace supplier, there are usually several in most towns, and discuss what you need with them and see what they recomend for your size of house/rooms etc. Some work on radiators and others on warmed air. GPL is very expensive in Italy, so best avoided as the main heating fuel for your house, mains gas is less but still relatively expensive.

We paid a considerable sum for a week's rent of a farmhouse in Tuscany at Easter a couple of years ago. The weather was much chillier than we had packed for and the only source of heating was a fireplace with a back boiler and a couple of radiators in the bedrooms. The owners (a young British couple who are known to quite a few because of a certain TV series) gave us only the briefest of instructions on how to make the system work. They were also stingy with the wood which consisted of very small logs and slimy olive prunings that had, it appeared, been lying in a pile in some corner of the property for a few months.

I frequently got the impression that the fact we were burning any wood at all was a source of major annoyance to them. I could understand that to some extent: the couple and their kids had got used to living in fairly primitive conditions. But the fact was that we had come directly from a centrally heated house, it had been decades since I had messed around with a wood burning fireplace and we had paid them for a holiday. Sadly, some of the main memories I have of the week centre on just how cold, gloomy and damp the farmhouse was; completely at odds with our expectations. This, amongst other things relating to the owners' attitudes, did sour the experience a bit.

If the property will be rented during cooler parts of the year, I think you should consider things like this. I suspect there are a lot of people these days have absolutely no experience of laying and tending a wood fire. Even if they do, my experience is that wood-burning systems seem to each have their own idiosyncrasies. Who's going to show them how to start a fire and tend it? Who's going to make sure that there's always wood available for your guests?

I'm planning on using solar and wood to heat my house (when I find it! :D ), but I'm definitely not going to use wood as the main heat source in the guest accommodation. Wood-fired central heating systems are lovely to look at, cheap to run and just generally wonderful once you've learned how to work them. But they're not a nice thing to force on people who are paying for a relaxing and comfortable time.

Just my tuppence.

Al

If you want to classify fuels with the latest boiler technology available then the cheapest to the dearest would look like:

Pellets... almost unknown in Italy
Wood... requires lots of work
Gas mains .... if available easiest and cheapest solution solution
Diesel ... next best
Lpg ... simply costs a fortune to run!!

Who knows what this would look like in a couple of years time?

David
[url]www.ourtoscana.com[/url]

Hi Umbriabuyer

Where abouts are you buying? we are waiting to complete on a place near Massa Martana.
Central heating in ours will need replacing and are looking into the pellet option but we will be there permently, I think gas is going to be your best bet.

good luck

Dave

What about Wood pellet stoves - they can be operated from home by telephone - most Brico/Gran Bricos sell the pellets

[QUOTE=David]If you want to classify fuels with the latest boiler technology available then the cheapest to the dearest would look like:

Pellets... almost unknown in Italy
Wood... requires lots of work
Gas mains .... if available easiest and cheapest solution solution
Diesel ... next best
Lpg ... simply costs a fortune to run!!

Who knows what this would look like in a couple of years time?

David
[url]www.ourtoscana.com[/url][/QUOTE]

We're thinking along the lines of wood pellets and have been told by our agent that they are easily available locally. I've seen lots of posts on here about wood pellets and wonder why you say that they are almost unknown in Italy

[QUOTE=umbriabuyer] As the property is going to be rented out for most of the year we want something that is easy for guests to operate Thanks.[/QUOTE]

The problem with a wood system is that 'guests' won't want to spend time cleaning out ashes, banking it up at night etc etc [its different if it you staying in your house] - they want something that comes on at the 'flick of a switch.

Log fire as supplementary heating are different - guest will consider these to be 'fun'

Also - in summer you will still need some system that supplies hot water when you don't have a fire burning - this is most likely to be a small gas instantaneous water heater - so some form of gas supply will be needed - even if it is the gas bottles

As the property is being let out most of the year, I think you also need to consider the 'empty periods' in Winter. The beauty of gas [or oil I assume] is that you can set it on the 'Frost Setting' and hopefully stop any pipes freezing - otherwise its 'drain the system time' if there is a empty period mid-winter.

So in order of convenience for your guests [IMHO]

1st - mains gas
2nd - tanked gas
3rd - oil
4th - Wood stove supplemented by gas water heater for Summer
5th - electric [bl**dy expensive]

Hope this helps

Dear TB
I've seen somebody referring to Pellets through OBI/Brico stores. If they are close by well and good although I find that they charge up to three times the prices of local wood merchants/timber yards. I guess if you go pellets, then you'd want to check out the source supply & prices.
David
[url]www.ourtoscana.com[/url]

[QUOTE=alan haynes]The problem with a wood system is that 'guests' won't want to spend time cleaning out ashes, banking it up at night etc etc [its different if it you staying in your house] - they want something that comes on at the 'flick of a switch.

Log fire as supplementary heating are different - guest will consider these to be 'fun'

Also - in summer you will still need some system that supplies hot water when you don't have a fire burning - this is most likely to be a small gas instantaneous water heater - so some form of gas supply will be needed - even if it is the gas bottles

As the property is being let out most of the year, I think you also need to consider the 'empty periods' in Winter. The beauty of gas [or oil I assume] is that you can set it on the 'Frost Setting' and hopefully stop any pipes freezing - otherwise its 'drain the system time' if there is a empty period mid-winter.

So in order of convenience for your guests [IMHO]

1st - mains gas
2nd - tanked gas
3rd - oil
4th - Wood stove supplemented by gas water heater for Summer
5th - electric [bl**dy expensive]

Hope this helps[/QUOTE]

I don't see why you say that the cost of heating is expensive. I live in Montreal, Canada which has probably the cheapest elctricity in the world. When I take into concideration what I spend to heat my house during winter and cool it in the summer because of the high humidity and the cost of heating ny pool because the water is cold. I would gladly trade places. I agree that the Kilo watt cost is probably higher in Italy but it is only for a short period of time.

I say you spend what is required to be confortable. I remember when I started using my home in Italy, my parents were satisfied with a fireplace for heating and windows open in the summer for cooling. In the last couple of years we installed a heat-pump/air conditioner and a pellet stove. I had no intenetion of freezing in the winter and melting in the summer. And the hot water tank stays on. I like to shower everyday, sometimes twice a day.

Hell I even bought a Gaz Bar-B-Q. I got fed up of starting a fire when I wanted a steak. By the way when are they going to sell North America style Bar-B-Q's in Europe. I spent E350.00 and this thing, it must be a Jamie Oliver model, doesn't heat for beans and has a small cooking surface. You should have seen my cousins expressions when I was trying to cook 2 racks of Pork Ribs, Texas Style. What a laugh!! My cousins told me to bring an American model so that we could cook the whole pig next time.

After writing this, I now know why Italians say we Americans/Candians are spoiled. We don't like hardships.

Cheerio!!

Are found everywhere in Liguria. Every builders' merchant has them in their window and DIY places too. Expect to pay around €3.5 per 15kg bag. They are the future. The stoves are massively popular.

[quote=Cassini]Are found everywhere in Liguria. Every builders' merchant has them in their window and DIY places too. Expect to pay around €3.5 per 15kg bag. They are the future. The stoves are massively popular.[/quote]

Am I right in thinking that pellet stoves also need to be plugged in; i.e. they also need a supply of electricity to work?

I believe the majority would do for automatic ignition, use of lcd timers/displays etc. and fan operation. You will find that the leading manufacturers' websites have complete technical information and sometimes line drawings too.

Our boiler certainly requires electricity.

hello,
we are living for 5 years in the MArche where we have a B&B. For our own rooms we have wood central heating system and for our guests we have central heating on mains gas. (Liquid gas is very expensive !)
Isabelle

We are looking into geothermal heating, which is running a long pipe full of water deep underground where the earth heats it and sends it back up.
The idea is to run underfloor heating and apart from the pump there is no cost once its installed.
I think gas here is extortionate, logs are cheap, but stacking in summer is hard work, pellets stoves are widely available but are more expensive than log ones, so although the geo system will be expensive to put in we should get it back over the nx few years.
Also as its green there may be grants available, (I hope!!)

Two points. Do remember when locating either a boiler or a stufa that an air supply is required from outside. It may be that a hole has to be knocked into an external wall and covered with an insect shield and vent cover. You usually only find out about this from the installer or the instruction booklet - do explore this whilst at the planning stage.

Secondly forced air will be a fan. It will either be expelling hot air into the room - some models - Palazzetti - or it will be a fan providing air under the burner or to expel flu gases outside. our caldaiea uses forced air both to burn pellets and expel flue gases. This varies according to the demand for heat.

Hope this is of some use.

[QUOTE=manopello][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]We have a small house just 120sq meters and would like a pellet heating system but can think of no way of accomodating the boiler and huge storage tank required.We plan to remodel the entrance hall and stairs and then box in some where for a boiler but a storage tank seems to start at 10 sq meters.If there is any system that would work in a small house I'd love to hear.
[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

We have looked into this as well.
So far we have found the following, all have the hopper attached as an integral part so it is much smaller and you do not need to have a huge storage tank taking up alot of space. I guess the disadvangtage is that the hopper capacity is smaller and will need filling more freqently, but it will still be once a day max.

STUFE
Idrofox [url]www.edilkamin.it[/url]
Ecologica Idro [url]www.extraflame.com[/url]
Freddy Idro, Margot Idro and Maxi Idro all [url]www.palazzetti.it[/url]

CAMINETTI
[url]www.jolly-mec.it[/url]

There are no doubt others out there that we have not come across, perhaps someone else can recommend another make/model.

Have just thought, do you mean water storage tank? If so, sorry for above, I misunderstood and thought you meant pellet hopper size, we have not yet found something with a small water tank.

Why not go for the best there is - a geothermal heat pump system. One triple function geothermal heat pump integrates into one compact package, forced air heating, air-conditioning, radiant in-floor heating or hot water heating or hot tub Jacuzzi heating – AND full domestic hot water heating! This is the cheapest, greenest, most reliable, simplest to use space conditioning for ANY climate. Since our conversion to geothermal, we are saving about 75% - and have never been more comfortable.

For more information, click:

[url]http://how-efficient-is-it-magazine.com[/url]

SR

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]Thanks Anne
no the water heating is yet another problem!!Your advice is much appreciated and I am quite convince a pellet boiler is the only way to go..just got to convince partner who is still anti!

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

SR

Because as I am led to believe the Italian electrical supply cannot cope with the power required to run a heat pump:(

Dave

Wanting to be green and efficient:D

Hi Dave,

I’m hoping you may be wrong about the Italian electrical grid. Perhaps you can educate us.

AC required: 230vac, 30-amp TD (time delay) fuse or breaker.

A triple function geothermal heat pump with an output capacity in the heating mode of nominally 3.5 tons (43,000 BTU’s) draws 3,315 watts (3.315kw). That’s hardly more than two large baseboard heaters. However, with the baseboard heaters, for every kilowatt of electricity used, you’ll get out 1 kilowatt of heat (100% efficient). The geothermal heat pump, on the other hand, has a COP (co-efficiency of performance) of 3.8, meaning, for every kilowatt in, you’ll get out 3.8 kilowatts of heat (380% efficient). You put in 1 kilowatt and in return get back a total of 3.8 kW, 2/3 of it free, non-taxable, infinitely renewable energy from the sun. Not altogether a bad deal.

For more information, click:

[url]http://how-efficient-is-it-magazine.com[/url]

SR

[QUOTE=srudick]Hi Dave,

I’m hoping you may be wrong about the Italian electrical grid. Perhaps you can educate us.

AC required: 230vac, 30-amp TD (time delay) fuse or breaker.

A triple function geothermal heat pump with an output capacity in the heating mode of nominally 3.5 tons (43,000 BTU’s) draws 3,315 watts (3.315kw). [/QUOTE]

The problem people will have in Italy is that the standard supply to a property is 3kW - so a system that need 3.315kW will play havoc with the trip switches - although you can pay extra for a bigger electrical supply.

SR

[QUOTE]A triple function geothermal heat pump with an output capacity in the heating mode of nominally 3.5 tons (43,000 BTU’s) draws 3,315 watts (3.315kw). [/QUOTE]

In laypersons terms what size property in square metres would the above system be suitable for?

Regards

Dave

[QUOTE=manopello][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]
I wonder why there aren't more wood/coal fired Rayburns used in Italy as at least these can be put in a kitchen without looking too bad.And you can cook with them too.
[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

If you do a web search under 'Termocucine', there are quite a few types of wood burning ranges, many of which can be linked into a central heating/hotwater system. I have not ploughed through all the technical stuff, will leave that to my husband!, but some are very attractive and we are now thinking of going down that path. We have a large open fire in the kitchen, very pretty, but not efficient and a cause of huge heat loss. One of these could be the answer especially as they are multi purpose and look good.

Re: Alan,

Thanks for that information. 3kW max is a problem. That puts you in the range of about 15 amps total, max. I’m curious though, what is the fee structure for additional power requirements? What is the voltage exactly? I know it must be between 220 and 240vac. How much do you pay per kWhr?

For reference, I live in Montreal. We pay approx.$0.072Can. ($0.062USD. / €0.052Euros) per kWhr, all taxes and tariffs included. All homes are 110 and 220vac, 100amp entrance min. New standard is 200amp entrance min.

Re: Dave,

This size unit will heat up to 167 square meters approx.

Here are two useful links:

[url]http://how-efficient-is-it-magazine.com[/url]

[url]http://www.nordicghp.com/mg/geo_heat_pump.htm[/url]

SR

Quick question on pellet stoves...
Every time I see nice promotional, glossy brochures for pellet stoves, I can't see any external pipes for the smoke. Are they all hidden away in the walls or could it be you don't need to extract the smoke? Surely not.

I have just bought a house in Trassilico, near Gallicano. The house is 240 M sq. The burner will connect up to the radiators and supply all the water for the taps, shower via a 200 Litres storage tank!

The cost of the burner (including tax) is 3,600.00E. this is the price form the local builder in Gallicano, and is the Clam "Niagra". I think it is new as it is not in the brochure and I only have a photocopy of the specs.

This will take commands via GSM SMS, and while I was looking at different manufactures, some would actually have there own web sites, and you can set up heating settings for each week via the web. Very useful if you are renting it out!

Here are a few manufactures sites off the top of my head:

[url]http://www.clam.it[/url]
[url]http://www.extraflame.com[/url]
[url]http://www.calimax.com[/url]
[url]http://www.mcz.it[/url]

Hope this helps!

Hi Derek,

The fumes go out the back via a 80mm pipe. Not all pellet burners will heat radiatores etc, they have fans and dispurse the hot air, so you wont see any pipes.

If you have radiatores etc they will probably be hidden. Most suppliers have technical diagrams showing all the connections they have - take a look on some of the sites I posted earlier on this thread.

Laters!
:)

wood pellet stoves seem to be widely available here in italy...someone seemed to say they are unheard of.... i think anyway in abruzzo they seem to be readily available...good supply of pellets and in truth if i was starting all over again ...we have mains gas ...i would have this sytem installed as they seem to be very high tec and no waste hardly....

as regards costs versus canada and italy.... and lenght of seasons.... i have posted elsewhere on this....but you heat here in italy for almost four months a year...and it can extend to six.... and thats virtually the whole place...with few exceptions...

because of the way houses are constructed for keeping cool rather than warm .... ie marble,tile floors etc...never seem to hold heat... and if you have an old house you will most probably find the canten/cellar the warmest place in winter and the collest in summer...always 12 c....

so i dont know the yearly costs in canada but here expect to pay if using the cheapest conventional heating ...mains gas around e2000 per winter ...and if you are using any other common fuel source...ie tank gas or fuel oil think of first adding a third to the price and fuel oil doubling....

and dont think of being able to live without ...its just too cold...everywhere... and when you get a warm day or two...leave it running because if you turn it off the house looses the stored heat in no time and you then have to build it all up again...

[QUOTE=Rafey]
The fumes go out the back via a 80mm pipe.
:)[/QUOTE]

One of the reasons I started looking at pellet stoves. We do not have a chimney at all and could vent from the back of the stove with a very small pipe. Think this is possible because the fuel is so efficient there is no need for a large flue.
Having said that I am no expert - but getting more informed all the time.
Regards, Lesley ;)

[quote=iwanttobeinitaly]One of the reasons I started looking at pellet stoves. We do not have a chimney at all and could vent from the back of the boilet with a very small pipe. Think this is possible because the fuel is so efficient there is no need for a large flue.
Having said that I am no expert - but getting more informed all the time.
Regards, Lesley ;)[/quote]

Yes, I guess this is what I'm trying to find out. Is it possible to have a free-standing pellet stove (no radiators/boilers) without having it connected to a chimney?

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]We have a small house just 120sq meters and would like a pellet heating system but can think of no way of accomodating the boiler and huge storage tank required.We plan to remodel the entrance hall and stairs and then box in some where for a boiler but a storage tank seems to start at 10 sq meters.If there is any system that would work in a small house I'd love to hear.

I wonder why there aren't more wood/coal fired Rayburns used in Italy as at least these can be put in a kitchen without looking too bad.And you can cook with them too.

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

From what I have seen the answer is yes. You would have a pipe going from the back of the stove to the outside but it does not have to be anywhere near as big (or obvious) as a wood stove, which i believe is to do with the fact that the pellets are dried and therefore combustion does not create a lot of exhaust gases to be flued away.
I suspect I will have saved some info somewhere about how this all works (which would give a much better explanation than I ever could) so will have a look and try to post some links,
Regards, Lesley

[QUOTE=derekL]Is it possible to have a free-standing pellet stove (no radiators/boilers) without having it connected to a chimney?[/QUOTE]

On the [URL="http://www.edilkamin.it/"]Idrofox[/URL] link posted by Anne2 above, under "Stoves" there is a subcategory "Pellet - Forced". It appears that it is a forced air stove which does not require a chimney. I assume the "forced" bit means that an electic fan is used to blow air into the stove from outside and this in turn forces the exhaust gases back out the wall vent.

In the "Forced" section, there is only one stove listed as being a boiler. I take this to mean that all the other stoves on the page act like conventional stoves in that they only heat the air surrounding the stove.

Al

You will of course have considered what your supply is and the cost of putting your electricity supply in to run the heat pump etc. We discounted it on cost and on having typical 3Kwatt supply. It is very popular in France where electricity is a cheap fuel.