2078 solar Power Systems

Hi Kym
I don't have too much info as yet but by doing a search on this forum + internet I think you'll find Solar panels plus big tank for hot water is OK but I imagine the ammount of panels plus storage for heating would be too expensive, what happens at night or a few days with no sun in the winter (shorter days also).
I shall watch this thread with interest.
Stribs

[QUOTE=Stribs]Hi Kym
I don't have too much info as yet but by doing a search on this forum + internet I think you'll find Solar panels plus big tank for hot water is OK but I imagine the ammount of panels plus storage for heating would be too expensive, what happens at night or a few days with no sun in the winter (shorter days also).
I shall watch this thread with interest.
Stribs[/QUOTE]

Hi done a search of forum nothing as yet I would like to use solar in summer for water & in winter use a stufa system that will heat my water and heat the house or hoping to. Most of the sites seem to be in uk and dont have prices only free quotation. Read a news article on Italy using solar but not found any sites

We have also been looking into solar power and are hoping to have some form of grid connected system.

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Grid connected systems are photovoltaic systems directly connected to the main utility power through a particular inverter properly designed for these connections.
Their functioning is very easy: during the day the system produces the quantity of energy that the consumer needs (there are no limits of power for the installations but generally home systems can vary from 1Kwp to 3-5Kwp). But this energy is only available during the day. When the consumer requires less electricity than the photovoltaic array is generating, the excess power is fed or sold back to the utility grid.
When the photovoltaic array generates less electricity than needed, the need is automatically met by utility power.
In this way grid connected systems reduce the consumption that consumers have to purchase from the electricity grid, thus being credited for energy returned to the grid, which is deducted from charges for electricity purchased.[/COLOR]

We wonder whether having this type of system would defray the costs of having a 6kW supply, and would a 6kW supply be man (sorry person) enough to run a geothermal heat pump system?

[URL="http://www.gechelin.com/"]More info
[/URL]

Part of that site has info on the "Feed In Tariff" that the Italian government have been discussing. The idea of supplementing the mains electricity and even possibly reducing the bills whilst not visiting the property does appeal to us.

Possibly someone fluent could precis the information for us:o

[URL="http://www.solarbuzz.com/CompanyListings/Italy.htm"]more links[/URL]

Dave

Dave,
I'll try.
To comprehend what you want, or what you will end up with, you first have to understand the system in more of a technical form, unfortunately.

How the whole concept/circuit works.
How much the hardware costs against what power you want for to use for yourself & any return on excess capacity in your system will get.
How much you want to spend.

The systems/circuits come in various shapes & sizes, with various power outputs.
The boiler/heating supplier RIELLO, has some interesting info, including circuit diagrams. When i retrieve the web page i used to find it, i'll post it.

What you will find with all solar heating/electrical systems is that they all require a system of storage,(sorry to state what maybe the obvious), but once one 'knows' this, then you begin to understand the solar concept.

Tell if i am stating what you already know.

Ciao
Rob

Rob

I must admit that we are primarily thinking of solar as providing an electrical supply rather than the heating and water aspects. This German site has a brief explanation.

[URL="http://www.ibc-solar.de/www_ibc/systems_grid_connection_407_107_0_f.htm"]Grid System[/URL]

The system does not seem to require storage (battery cells etc), it just appears to connect to the inverter which is connected in parallel/phase with the mains supply either supplying the home or feeding back to the grid depending on demand.

What we would hope to achieve is a solar system to provide electrical energy and "Feed In" to the grid to reduce costs of a 6kW system and to provide reduced cost supplies during the day.

Coupled with a geothermal system to provide heating and domestic water.

[URL="http://www.nibe.com/heating/produkter/mvp/funktion.htm"]Geothermal[/URL]

[URL="http://www.avenir-energie.com/english/acceuil/frame.htm"]Another Geothermal Link[/URL]

Dave wanting to go green not be green doh!:o

dave,
Go back to their 'grid system' & click on the list of MEGASOL sets.(r/h side of page).
You will see that there are batteries incorporated in them all. Batteries are needed to offer consistency of d/c supply to the inverter for a consistent a/c supply to your house.
Hope this helps
Ciao amico
Rob

Rob

The pdf links are all to Stand Alone Systems not grid connected.

This Australian site mentions the equipment required for a grid connected system.
[URL="http://www.solazone.com.au/SOLPOWER.htm"]
Solpower[/URL]

There is also a description of the inverters used
[URL="http://www.solazone.com.au/gridinvert.htm"]
Inverters[/URL]

I must admit that if the system does require a bank of batteries we may have to rethink.:(

Cheers

Dave

We too are in a bit of a quandry about all the different 'green' options.Have looked at a few sites on geothermal and can see a big problem for those in conservation areas/older houses they seem to need the 'pump' (dont know if that's what it is ) to be stuck onto the side of the house which looks a bit ugly and would it get pass the comume??

As to solar heating there is a guy based in Clacton ,Essex that has a web site selling smaller diy solar systems more suitable for using when camping out at a house without electricity than permanent use but he did tell me he had made solar panes for heating hot water for £50 each using copper piping painted with black car exhaust paint!You obviously ned to make an insulated box too.

Becky

Becky

Did you check out the avenir site?

The drop down menu about the generator links to:

[URL="http://www.avenir-energie.com/english/applications/generateur.htm"]Generator[/URL]

I remember reading that the outdoor option was a newer development, I believe to save space indoors and possibly to cut down on noise. It's not compulsory to have it outdoors just convenient for some.

We are fortunate to have a small leanto next to the house, so thought of using it instead of knocking it down.

Dave

In reply to your queries
There are a basically two types of solar systems
1. solar energy is condensed and transfered into a heating circuit which gives it's heat to your domestic hot water ( special heat conducting tubes are used to prevent the heat from your hot water tank going back into the atmosphere when the outside temperature cools down at night etc)
Approx costs for supply and fit are @ £2,500 for an average domestic installation.
2. Solar energy is converted through photo votaic cells into dc electrical current This is stored in batteries and fed through an inverter to give you 240 ac. It can be linked into the grid that way you use solar power as you req then top yourself up from the grid when your use is greater than you can generate( or during dakness) any over generation during sunlight periods is pumped into the grid and you are paid for this at agreed rates (the generousity of the rate depends on the greeness policy of the governmet ). The problem with this is that you would need enough cells to cover the whole of your roof to generate enough current to run your house. PV cells work out at about £6.00 per watt therfore 1KW of energy will cost you about £6,000.00 and it would only give you that in direct good sunlight. these projects are only affordable with massive government grant assistance.

I'm currently looking into setting up buisness in Italy as aprovider and installer of renewable energy Solar ,wind and water[QUOTE=YNot]Rob

The pdf links are all to Stand Alone Systems not grid connected.

This Australian site mentions the equipment required for a grid connected system.
[URL="http://www.solazone.com.au/SOLPOWER.htm"]
Solpower[/URL]

There is also a description of the inverters used
[URL="http://www.solazone.com.au/gridinvert.htm"]
Inverters[/URL]

I must admit that if the system does require a bank of batteries we may have to rethink.:(

Cheers

Dave[/QUOTE]

Photovoltaic technology (solar panels that generate electricity) is still waiting for a breakthrough that will result in cheap, long-life panels. Every few months, one hears of some amazing new technology that will result in highly efficient, low-cost and long-lasting photovoltaic panels, but real products never seem to appear.

At the moment, photovoltaic panels are durable, but the convert only a small percentage of the energy in sunlight into electricity and a panel that produces a significant amount of electricity is still quite expensive. While it is possible to get a cheap photovoltaic panel that you can use for things like charging a mobile phone, it all rapidly gets expensive and complicated once you move into the realm of systems that can provide an electricity supply that approaches what everyone on "the grid" takes for granted.

Batteries have been mentioned. Unfortunately, they are necessary for all but the most basic off-grid systems and the 19th century technology of lead-acid batteries is still the most practical form. While there have been developments and improvements over the last century, batteries remain essentially boxes containing lead plates and acid. They are expensive, very heavy, generate flammable hydrogen gas, require periodic testing and topping up with water and -- something that must be borne in mind when considering the running costs of an independent power system -- they have a limited life. A good quality battery that is always operated well within its charge-discharge capacity and maintained conscientiously might last ten years before it's efficiency falls to an unacceptable level. A cheap battery, or an expensive one that is too small to cope with the demands placed on it, might last just a couple of years and so prove a false economy. (And don’t even think about using old car batteries. They aren’t designed for deep charge-discharge cycles and so they’ll last a couple of months at most.)

Since batteries are not cheap, this means that the running costs of a photovoltaic system are not as low as one might first think. It is definitely not the case that all you need to do is buy some photovoltaic panels, stick them on your roof and -- bingo! -- free electricity forever!

To be honest, I haven't examined in detail the links relating to a possible "buy back" system in Italy, since my impression is that this is still in the hypothetical stage. If it ever actually happens and one is determined to be “green” on principle, this might be an attractive route. However, anyone considering this approach with the idea that a few photovoltaic panels might mean they can effectively have electricity for free without the bother of batteries should consider this: in most (if not all) places in the USA, local electricity suppliers are obliged by law to buy any electricity produced by consumers. Yet it is not the case that the roof of every house in the USA is covered with photovoltaic panels. It may be so someday, but not until it is possible to produce photovoltaic panels that are cheap, highly efficient and have a lifetime measured in decades.

Since I have concerns about the long-term reliability of the Italian electricity grid due to the fact that it is virtually completely dependent on oil-fired power stations, one of the things I will be seeking in my new home is the potential to be completely self-contained in terms of electricity and heating. My conclusion is that photovoltaic panels will play a part in this, but my electricity system must have other sources as well. Small-scale hydro is very attractive, but I know that properties with a stream are not common. Wind generators definitely will definitely have a role.

And there will also be a small diesel powered generator tucked away in some corner for those very rare times when the wind don’t blow and the sun don’t shine for days.

This appeals to me since I love tinkering with stuff, but I know the idea of designing, building and maintaining an independent electricity system won’t appeal to many. Sensible people just want to know that the lights will come on when they flick a switch. I know too that all this stuff is quite expensive, although those lovely Chinese have decided to start producing small scale [URL="http://www.navitron.org.uk/hydro_power.htm"]hydro[/URL] and [URL="http://www.navitron.org.uk/wind_turbine.htm"]wind generators[/URL] that are much cheaper that what has been available. They also do [URL="http://www.navitron.org.uk/generators.htm"]generators[/URL], [URL="http://www.navitron.org.uk/photovoltaic_solar_cell.htm"]photovoltaic panels[/URL] and [URL="http://www.navitron.org.uk/solar_collector_panel.htm"]high-efficiency solar water heating tubes[/URL] I have no idea what the quality is like or how long the things might last, but I will definitely be checking this out.

If solar electricity generation is inherently complicated, solar water heating can be extremely simple.

One of the campsites we’ve stayed on at Lake Garda had an intriguing water heating system for the showers: a couple hundred metres of black plastic pipe laying in coils on the roof of the toilet block. It worked. (Anyone considering living on-site during a long-term renovation project on a derelict Italian farmhouse might bear this trick in mind!)

For that matter, any black container sitting out in the sun of an Italian summer’s day will produce hot water. And yes, one can make a very effective solar water heating panel using relatively cheap bits of copper and black paint. Or one can pay a considerable sum for a super-efficient panel that can even produce useful amounts of hot water in Scotland.

And this demonstrates an important point: using sunlight to generate electricity is far from economic in Scotland, but the reduction in water heating costs means it is possible for a solar water heating system to pay for itself in a few years, even in Scotland. Obviously, what applies in cloudy, high latitude Scotland is even more the case in Italy.

Things get more complicated if you want to use solar heating to make a significant contribution to heating the house as well as domestic hot water. And things can get really complicated if you want to be able to store enough heat to keep the house warm for a fortnight of heavily overcast, sub-zero weather.

(Of course, being an chronic tinkerer, my plans involve a horrendously complicated system of home-made solar panels, under-floor background heating and a heat storage vault under a poly tunnel greenhouse. Oh, and a pellet stove. Just in case.)

The basic point is that the cost-benefit of solar water heating systems is much more attractive than that for photovoltaic systems.

If solar power is of interest to anyone and they know nothing at all about it, “[URL="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0028643933/qid=1133787727/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-5250485-8535857"]The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Solar Power for Your Home[/URL]” covers things in a fairly comprehensive, although not overly technical, way. The book is intended for an American audience, but the basic principles are universal and even things like the section on hiring a contractor to design and install the system will, I’m sure, have some relevance in Italy.

[URL="http://www.homepower.com/"]Home Power[/URL] magazine also has loads of information.

Sorry about the length of this. Hope it might be of some interest to someone.

Al

Chris/Allan

Thanks for the replies.

Heliostechnology an Italian firm for example have info on these systems on pdf

[URL="http://www.heliostechnology.com/cd/eng/civil/pdf/GRID_CONNECTED_200605.pdf"]Helios[/URL]

The home page also states that their cells are guaranteed for 25 years.

If you went for the 3.36kWp option mentioned is this the equivalent to the 3kW supplied by ENEL?

I do appreciate it won’t be easy to hide 28 sqm of PV cells.:)

I have also noticed on our commune home page a link to:

[URL="http://www.provincia.ap.it/provincia/ambiente/fotovoltaici.asp"]Impianti Fotovoltaici[/URL]

Maybe someone fluent may understand the documents. There does appear to be some reference to Euro/kWhr but I can't read/translate it:o

Do any members already living in Italy have any up to date info from architects/geometra I believe there is at least one on the forum.

Dave

[QUOTE=YNot]The home page also states that their cells are guaranteed for 25 years.[/QUOTE]

Longevity isn't a problem with the existing technology. 25 years is probably a conservative estimate, so long as the panels don't suffer some sort of impact damage. I mentioned working lifetime because it [I]is[/I] an issue with some of the new technologies that are in development. Some of these are based on printed polymers and so are extremely cheap, but their efficiency is lower than the existing technology and they have a problem with longevity.

[QUOTE=YNot]If you went for the 3.36kWp option mentioned is this the equivalent to the 3kW supplied by ENEL?[/QUOTE]

Well, yes, so long as you live in that very special part of Italy where the sun shines brightly 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. :D

[QUOTE=YNot]I do appreciate it won’t be easy to hide 28 sqm of PV cells.:)[/QUOTE]

And the [I]cost[/I] of 28m2 of PV panels will be...? ;)

Home Power magazine has an [URL="http://www.homepower.com/files/beginner/SolarElectricSystemCosts.pdf"]article[/URL] available for free which goes into some details on total costs. :eek: You might find it interesting ...or depressing ...or hair-raising, or something.

Al

[QUOTE=YNot]Rob

The pdf links are all to Stand Alone Systems not grid connected.

This Australian site mentions the equipment required for a grid connected system.
[URL="http://www.solazone.com.au/SOLPOWER.htm"]
Solpower[/URL]

There is also a description of the inverters used
[URL="http://www.solazone.com.au/gridinvert.htm"]
Inverters[/URL]

I must admit that if the system does require a bank of batteries we may have to rethink.:(

Cheers

Dave[/QUOTE]
Dave, Salve,
Just got in from work 'pulling cables'.
JIB electrical engineer, MIdiag E.

The Australian system connected directly to the grid, without batteries - & selling back your excess - is successful because of the amount of sunshine they get, to obtain consistency of supply for your use & to generate more than you require.
As the suns strength varies during the day, so the power output will vary.
So, if you want 1kw of power consistently, then you must have the capacity to generate probably 3kw or so (& the installation costs of such). The power consistency to you, the user uses, is done by using a 'Controller'. So you can understand if the sun goes in/at night. there is not enough power for the 'controller' to be enabled. You can't switch your lights on therefore at night WITHOUT battery storage.

I broadly agree with chris's figures on capital equipment costs per kw.

Alan, as i understand it, Italy are now in agreement with the rest of europe & will buy back your excess for approx 40cents/1kw, or so.
Saluti
Rob

Thanks again guys

Rob

I thought the idea of grid connected meant that when the demand was greater than the PV supplied then the system would be supplied from the grid i.e at night/dull days.

It still sounds to me like a Green Dream at the moment:(

Back to the drawing board and me crayons!!

Dave

[QUOTE=YNot]It still sounds to me like a Green Dream at the moment:( [/QUOTE]
Cheap, direct conversion of sunlight into electricity [I]has[/I] been a "green dream" for some time now. I'm sure there will come a day when advances in technology mean the economics are such that the only sensible thing for everyone to do will be to have PV panels on their roof. But that time is still some way off.

Large scale electricity generation and national distribution grids exist for very good reasons: economics of scale and convenience to consumers.

You've mentioned using geothermal (what used to be called a "heat pump") heating for your home. This is, it seems to me, a very sensible option to investigate. From what you've said, it appears that you are concerned about how much electricity the system will consume. Perhaps you should take a close look at your very local conditions and what your needs will actually be to make certain the system you're being sold is big enough to meet your needs but no more.

If I was going down the geothermal route, I'd consider whether it might be possible to get a cheaper, smaller system sufficient to provide background heat during the cooler times of the year and then have a wood-fired system (pellet or cordwood) that could be fired up in the really cold periods. This would also provide redundancy so you weren't totally dependent on one form of heating (and, in the case of geothermal, a contiuous supply of electricity from the grid during the times when it's under the greatest stress during bad weather).

I have no idea what the costs of this would be.

As far as solar is concerned, you said at the start that you were not interested in solar water heating. As I've said, this technology is already at the point where it does make economic sense. I do think it is something you should investigate further, whether because you want to be green or because you want to reduce the running costs of your new home.

Al

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]This is a great thread..at last the forum is getting back on orbit!

I spent a few hours yesterday looking at geothermal systems and when my partner gets home from a trip tomorrow I'm going to 'hit him with it'. At the moment he is very sceptical.

Our house is small 2 bedrooms, 2 rooms downstairs and a hall and bathroom. It is in a sheltered position under a small hill. SIze 120 sq meters so I think a solar water system,wood stove and geothermal system should do it just need to calculate size...also did I also read that the geothermal 'thingy' that goes on the side of a house can be very noisy???we have 3,000 sq of garden so plenty of room outside for the underground element.

I know that these greener systems do cost more but I would think if it comes to selling a place then you are going to get your money back and extra as the costs for conventional power are so high in Italy.

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

Becky

I only mentioned noise as a guess as a small part of the reason to move the pump outdoors, I assume the pump does make a little sound when running so I suppose you would put it in a cupboard "under the stairs" or utility room. Having one outdoors is probably more to do with saving indoor space than anything else.

I haven't actually seen/heard a system running so cannot comment:o

Allen

We [B]are[/B] considering having an integrated mixture of systems including the pellet burner option especially for that winter boost, and nothing beats the psychological effect of a flickering flame:D

I must admit my view of solar hot water was based on systems with huge silver tanks attached, but if the system is available with the tank hidden it sounds the way to go.

Dave

[QUOTE=manopello]...also did I also read that the geothermal 'thingy' that goes on the side of a house can be very noisy???[/QUOTE]
I don't speak from experience here, but I don't understand why the compressor for a geothermal system should be particularly noisy. I imagine it would be significantly louder than a central heating pump but nothing like as noisy as, say, a portable generator.

The technology of a geothermal heating system is basically the same as that of a refrigerator. I won't go into all the details of what's going on inside the piping of a fridge, but you basically have cool pipes where heat is aborbed from the inside of the fridge, hot pipes where heat is transferred into the air outside the fridge and a compressor that circulates the coolant around the system and makes the whole thing work. As we all know, refigerators are all but silent when they're working.

The basic idea of a geothermal heating system is that the hot coil is inside the house, the cold coil buried in the ground and the compressor in between. Clearly, the size of a compressor needed to keep a house warm is considerably larger than what's required to keep a litre of milk cool, but I would be very surprised if these things are all that loud when they're working.

Al

Many systems will offer a roofline tank colourmatched to your roof. The Solahart ones are quite aesthetic. Depending on your position and angle of inclination it may be possible for roof panels and tank to be flush with the roofline rather than upstanding in mid air. Tank location depends on whether you have access to your roof void for a tank or whether you have room for say a three way tank near your boiler. In smaller houses there may be no option but to have the tank on the roof as long as it will bear the weight.

[QUOTE=YNot]I must admit my view of solar hot water was based on systems with huge silver tanks attached, but if the system is available with the tank hidden it sounds the way to go.[/QUOTE]

I can't immediately recall ever seeing them in Italy, but I do recall that a lot of houses in Greece had large, silver solar heating tanks on their roofs. I assume this is what you mean?

Cassini has mentioned one way of avoiding this unsightly arrangement.

We saw another on our visit the Easter before last to a young British family living on a northern Tuscan hillside. Their house was perched on the side of a terrraced hill and they had two solar water heating panels on the the hillside below the house. They were on short metal posts perhaps 30 cm off the ground and maybe 5 metres from the house. Inside the house, there was an insulated cylinder perhaps a metre in diameter and nearly two metres high.

The system wasn't actually working when we were there, since some bit of wiring had apparently come loose and the owners couldn't be bothered to call someone out to sort it out. Apart from the fact that it was annoying on general principles to see a clearly very expensive system sitting idle for no good reason, it was irritating because it meant the only hot water we had in our rented farmhouse was whatever was heated by electricity at night.

To get back to the point and off my high horse, this system had nothing at all on the roof. As Cassini says, there may be no option in some properties but to have panels and storage tank on the roof. But I should think that, for many rural properties where shortage of land is not an issue, a better location for panels is either at ground level or slightly above.

Al

Allen

We have been thinking of having something along these lines, perhaps to create a shaded side to our non-existant swimming pool/firefighting water collector:D

[URL="http://www.solheat.co.uk/solheat_images/gaz.jpg"]Gazebo[/URL]

Since these can work at a small distance from the property then this could be OK.

Dave

Solar Installations by Lars Andren (Swedish) has lots of info.
I have a friend here who has just built a quad lock house (polystyrene blocks a bit like lego that you fill with concrete)
It has 6 panels on the roof that heat water, underfloor heating and pool.
Its also hooked up to the stuffa which runs it in winter.

[QUOTE=YNot]We have been thinking of having something along these lines, perhaps to create a shaded side to our non-existant swimming pool/firefighting water collector:D

[URL="http://www.solheat.co.uk/solheat_images/gaz.jpg"]Gazebo[/URL]

Since these can work at a small distance from the property then this could be OK.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I was going to natter on about using solar panels for the roof of a gazebo or something, but then I edited myself in the interests of brevity.

The only comment I'd make about the picture is that, for greatest efficiency, solar panels should face south and be tilted at an angle which depends on the latitude. So a flat roof (which appears to be the case in the picture) is not ideal.

Anyway, yes, using solar panels for the roof of something like a summer house or gazebo is very sensible. Put some lattice work around the sides or maybe some wires so you can train a creeper of some sort (maybe a grape vine?), and you've got a nice little shady corner that has a very practical function as well.

Obviously, the further a solar panel is from the point where it's heat is used, the more energy will be lost by radiation from the connecting pipes. So there is a practical limit to how far away you can site panels, but it's really a matter of balancing panel sizes, insulation of the pipes, the duration and intensity of sunlight you receive and the amount of heat you want to collect.

Al

[QUOTE=YNot]Thanks again guys

Rob

I thought the idea of grid connected meant that when the demand was greater than the PV supplied then the system would be supplied from the grid i.e at night/dull days.

It still sounds to me like a Green Dream at the moment:(

Back to the drawing board and me crayons!!

Dave[/QUOTE]
Hi Dave, just got in from work AGAIN, 8.30pm.
You are absolutely right, ( you know more than you are letting on), BUT;

You have to specify at the start, for installation & financial purposes, how much energy you want to generate. As Alan says, it's all down to how much you want to spend.

Theoretically, you can build your own solar generating station as big as you like & live off that, but at what cost???

Dave, are you now happy with what is required to generate your own power, if not let me know.???

Saluti
Rob

Allen

Solar Power and Vines :D

That particular company makes panels using a tube type of system and state that whatever angle the system is placed the tube still received 180 degree coverage coupled with rear reflectors to improve the efficiency.

[IMG]http://www.solheat.co.uk/solheat_images/Collector_Assemly_copy.jpg[/IMG]

Rob

Think I've got the gist now, enjoyed the conversation tho. It's nice to be given food for thought.

Grazie

Dave

I am about to buy a property in the Appennines and want to find out more about the vertical option mentioned- as flat land is at a premium here if getting the vertical transfer attennae sunk in place is affordable I would like to start getting quotes.

I have a small garden but could negotiate for a neglected patch of land at the back - probably swop for several remote fields I am apparently acquiring with the house in good old italian fashion.
Anyone had any quotes done for this?? If not, any referrals to a company who could? any help much appreciated Jude

Interesting thread.

We too looked into Geothermal systems for our farmhouse. I had a chat with two seperate companies at the Homebuilders and Renovation Show at the NEC before we moved here. Both were informative and it all sounded positive until I mentioned that electrical supply at the house is limited to 4.5kw. They both said that was a big problem as the heat pump would draw different amounts of power at different times (depending on what it is doing I assume) and it would require at least 5kw (and that is just for the heat pump, never mind lights in the house or a computer!). So that was the end of our flirtation with Geothermal systems. :( I would love to be corrected but it came from two different companies so there must be some truth in it!

Don't just assume that you can upgrade to 6Kw either. It all depends on how far you are from the "kabinet" our electrician explained. ENEL have told us 4.5 is the most we can have although the electrician reckons we will all have 6Kw in the future.

On the solar theme. We have a friend here who is using a termocamino (wood fireplace that heats domestic hot water and water for radiators) to heat his radiators and supply a tank in the loft which is linked to just one solar panel. This, in turn, heats up the domestic hot water to keep it at a constant temperature in winter and will provide all the domestic hot water in summer. The solar panel has a small photovoltaic cell that powers it's own control system so the panel can't overheat and drains the panel when there is no sunlight so it can't freeze and crack. It is all installed and requiring one piece to be functional. If it works as well as it should. We will be doing the same.

Finally, we have some other friends who last year heated their house with oil (costly but warm). This year they have a termocamino and they say this is producing more heat than the brand new oil boiler they have just installed. Mind you, they are using a lot of wood but they are delighted with it.

Great thread! You may find this bit of information useful.

New legislation was passed in Italy in the month of July of this year (2005) that is introducing the grid buy-back scheme as mentioned above. The essential points of the as I understand it, is that there are no grants for the equipment involved however ENEL will pay 45 cents per KW produced for a 20 year period (the price of buying a KW from ENEL is about 14 cents). Apparently the banks will also be able to lend the capital costs and take the repayments in the form of electricity credit. There may also be VAT discounts too. An installation has to be in place within 6 months of receiving approval, and there is apparently a rush for the first round of applications to meet the initial Megawatt target set for each region (I think).

I have an interesting client from California who wants to make a substantial investment in solar and has bought a field that he wishes to turn into a sort of energy farm so to speak. The idea would be to alternate the panels with rows of apple trees to maintain aesthetics.

His wants to produce 10 KW per hour that would give on average of around 50 KW per day over the year, and approx 18,000kW per year. ENEL would pay 45 cents per KW which would yield 8,100 euros per annum. The cost of the installation would be about 80,000 euro and would require about 120 square metres of pv panels. This means that it would have paid for itself in about 11 to 12 years or perhaps longer given that he will use electricity during his vacation.

At a glance, this apparently makes a lot of sense given that he will occupy the house for perhaps four weeks / year. I am relatively new to the solar energy field but I intend to get smart on the subject and follow this case in greater detail with solar specialists as I think there is great potential. For those of you who are more expert, does this model look correct or do you see serious flaws?

Thanks in advance & Happy New Year.
David

[url]www.tuscanydoc.com[/url]

Just in case this link hasn't been mentioned. Here are some instructions on building a DIY solar water heater (In English).

[url]http://www.bigginhill.co.uk/solar.htm[/url]

Might be useful.

Great thread!!!! think maybe it should be in building and renovation though.

Al, what did you mean by this:
"As far as solar is concerned, .......... this technology is already at the point where it does make economic sense. I do think it is something you should investigate further, whether because you want to be green or because you want to reduce the running costs of your new home."

Economic sense? What manufacturers and what costs?

So far both thermal and solar seem expensive and appear to take about 15 years to pay off. I've had solar hot water some 15 years ago, loved it but I received rebates and tax credits - that helped with the cost. I'm hoping to build in Liguria, a temperate zone, and would love to be convinced to go "green" if it can make financial sense so please help with suggestions.
Sarah

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]
I agree that solar systems are more expensive and certainly with our own miniscule budget it's hard to see how we can pay for them but with some DIY work we hope we can.

I get the feeling that most people on this forum are pretty well off and it does make me cross when peolple who have plenty of money put their own self interest before that of the environment and the future of their children. If you don't spent £10,000 on some green heating system you can always save it and buy a gas guzzling car can't you? (Sorry that should be put it towards a gas guzzling car as £10,000 won't go far will it!!shows how out of touch I am!)

If youv'e got it spend it........on green energy!!

I'll now get off my high horse..for a while

Becky[FONT="Book Antiqua"][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3]"I get the feeling that most people on this forum are pretty well off"[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT]
I don't think the majority are well off on here, just average people wanting to change their life in some way. We intend to use solar and thermal systems as and when we can afford it.

Aliena,
I did say the majority! You being the minority, there could only be one of you! :D :D :D

I think purely the satisfaction of not giving large wads of my hard earned cash to Enel is more than worth the extra cash of installing solar water heating. And it is comparatively inexpensive when you take the DIY route.

Unfortunately in my current position its not feasible as I live in a flat and have no space to put it, but as soon as I move!

Also for those who are not inclined to get there hands dirty, you know there is also buying power in numbers, why not get together and try to get a group discount.

[QUOTE=sarahd]Al, what did you mean by this:
"As far as solar is concerned, .......... this technology is already at the point where it does make economic sense. I do think it is something you should investigate further, whether because you want to be green or because you want to reduce the running costs of your new home."

Economic sense? What manufacturers and what costs?[/QUOTE]

Ah, somebody asking me to back up my glib, blanket statements with cost-benefit analyses and pricings. Just what I always dread most. :o

The implication of your question is that it's possible to spend so much on a solar heating system that the difference between its cost and the cost of conventional water heating will only be recovered after decades, if ever. This is undeniably true. For the trillionaires amongst us, there are certainly firms around who will be thrilled to over-design a solar heating system to whatever extent necessary in order to take every cent of whatever extravagant budget you may propose. Those firms will be happy to provide a similar service to those of us on more limited budgets.

It is true that plugging a waterheater into the Italian domestic grid is the cheapest way of getting hot water in the short term. When it stops being so, there will be solar waterheating panels on the roof of every house.

However, it is possible for solar water heating to make economic sense if one does not have unrealistic expectations and shops around. This is most definitely the case if - as WiredEyes says - one is willing to put in some time learning about what's possible and then a bit of effort into doing some DIY.

Converting solar radiation into electricity or hot water will never be "free". And, unlike a conventional water heater or a wall socket connected to the grid, the costs of solar will always be all up front, which is a huge psychological barrier for some and an insurmountable financial barrier for many. But it is the case that if you have a well-designed and well-built system, the running costs and maintenance are minimal.

And there are, as WiredEyes and Becky say, more intangible benefits of going solar.

Also, as I think I've mentioned before, I think it would be very unwise for anyone to be too complacent about the security of electricty supplies in Italy. I'm not saying that I think a catastrophe is looming, but it is undeniable that the eggs are in very few baskets. It seems to me that, for those of us who are able to do so, it would be wise to be as green as possible. Partly because of the warm glow you get by knowing you've done the right thing, but also because having a degree of autonomy always makes sense.

I haven't checked, but I'm sure you're right to suggest that a solar system to supply all the hot water and domestic heating you need year-round in Liguria (or anywhere in Italy, for that matter) would be very expensive. Whether that price, or the price of a more modest system that would continue to supply some hot water when the electricity fails due to hot weather, cold weather or geopolitical crises, is one worth paying is a decision only you can make.

I hope my tap-dance around the issue has been entertaining. :D

Al

[QUOTE=David]Great thread! You may find this bit of information useful.

New legislation was passed in Italy in the month of July of this year (2005) that is introducing the grid buy-back scheme as mentioned above. The essential points of the as I understand it, is that there are no grants for the equipment involved however ENEL will pay 45 cents per KW produced for a 20 year period (the price of buying a KW from ENEL is about 14 cents). Apparently the banks will also be able to lend the capital costs and take the repayments in the form of electricity credit. There may also be VAT discounts too. An installation has to be in place within 6 months of receiving approval, and there is apparently a rush for the first round of applications to meet the initial Megawatt target set for each region (I think).

I have an interesting client from California who wants to make a substantial investment in solar and has bought a field that he wishes to turn into a sort of energy farm so to speak. The idea would be to alternate the panels with rows of apple trees to maintain aesthetics.

His wants to produce 10 KW per hour that would give on average of around 50 KW per day over the year, and approx 18,000kW per year. ENEL would pay 45 cents per KW which would yield 8,100 euros per annum. The cost of the installation would be about 80,000 euro and would require about 120 square metres of pv panels. This means that it would have paid for itself in about 11 to 12 years or perhaps longer given that he will use electricity during his vacation.

At a glance, this apparently makes a lot of sense given that he will occupy the house for perhaps four weeks / year. I am relatively new to the solar energy field but I intend to get smart on the subject and follow this case in greater detail with solar specialists as I think there is great potential. For those of you who are more expert, does this model look correct or do you see serious flaws?

Thanks in advance & Happy New Year.
David

[url]www.tuscanydoc.com[/url][/QUOTE]
not an expert on this but know one person and know of another both of whom are producing electricity going back in the grid.After two years they have been unable to get a Euro out of Enel both by the way are italians.just to say that if the theory was an earning curve ,with enel i wouldn't make any bets.