2110 UK Will

I'm not sure on the legalities, but how much will getting an Italian will (to supplement your UK one) cost?

It's one of those things that's just plain sensible!

I became aware that Italian law of inheritence is somewhat different from English law when during a conversation with friends it became clear that Italians could not dispose of their propertie(s) in anyway they want in a will: I have since found an tree diagram on this subject setting out who inherits what on death on the website of an American law firm and will PM it to you when I find it. (Moving between 2 countries create havoc with the filing system!) I was also told that you only pay 3% on the transfer of a house on death: no capital transfer tax!!! I understand that wills do not need to attested or registered with a notaio to be valid. How all these things apply to foreigners I do not know. I found a thread on this site and downloaded some material regarding residency etc. I was just as confused after the event. As my wife and I are embroiled in residency and domicile status in England for tax purposes will be taking legal advice from a local Italian barrister (she is being handed over a translated copy of the English wills : hard translating all these legal jargons), tax advice from accountants in for UK tax and Italian Tax laws (hope we get round to it soon: translanting these notwithstanding have been a headache: do not understand half of them). Will be wanting to know about guardianship of children as well. Quite a minefield. Do not want to leave a mess behind and do not want to leave anymore than I have to to any government.

According to my notaio the situation is that if you have no spouse or kids you can dispose of your property exactly the same as in the UK... leave it all to the cats home or to a bizarre religious cult. You dont need to make a will, just a HANDWRITTEN letter left where someone can find it after your demise... usually your notaio will lodge it for you.
If you have spouse and children, immovable property such as a house (as opposed to movable property . (furniture, cars, large bundles of cash) is subject to Italian law unless you make a short Italian will declaring that as a citizen of another country you wish your estate to be disposed of under the laws, and therefore your will, of your home country.
Does this help?

ps - yuo dont have to go to Rome, just to a notaio to make an an Italian will.

[QUOTE=tuscanhills]I'm not sure on the legalities, but how much will getting an Italian will (to supplement your UK one) cost?

It's one of those things that's just plain sensible![/QUOTE]

As you can see from the replies of Ram and Serge , it is not just the case of translating the Will, but knowing that the UK Will is recognised. There are dozens of derelict houses here in Basilicata, because they have been left to so many different relatives. No one gets the benefit, they are never sold and so they just crumble into ruins. I would hate that to happen and would hope that my daughter could have my house and share it with other relatives for holidays etc. However, if every long lost cousin etc comes out of the woodwork to claim part of the house, and she is unable to sell or use it , then this would not be a good situation. This is the worry. Not the translation.

If you have one child as far as I understand there is no problem, she would be the only heir. If there is more than one, then the property is divided between them, and subdivided again between their offspring and so on. This is how a house can become owned by 10 people within the space of a few years. Asuming you have only one heir the Italian law is clear... she gets the lot after the demise of both her parents.

[QUOTE=ram]If you have one child as far as I understand there is no problem, she would be the only heir. If there is more than one, then the property is divided between them, and subdivided again between their offspring and so on. This is how a house can become owned by 10 people within the space of a few years. Asuming you have only one heir the Italian law is clear... she gets the lot after the demise of both her parents.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Ram, this is why there are so many crumbling ruins....so if one of those 10 people refuse to sell, because they want a bigger price, the place just stays there for years and years. Need to look if UK Will is recognised here.

[QUOTE=pamela catalano]
Need to look if UK Will is recognised here.[/QUOTE]

There's no problem. A Uk will is recognised in Italy.
There are many threads on this matter

I am even more confused notaio. Does that mean if I am not Italian I can marry an Italian live in Italy all my life, have children and make a will in the country of my citizenship and leave nothing for my spouse and children and it will recognised by the Italian Law Courts?

I am also told that I can bypass all the inheritence law by transfering my properties to my heirs during my lifetime and pay only the 3% transfer tax. In the transfer deed I am told I can specify that I will have a right to live in my main residence until I die? However I will have to make sure that the I am not caught within the UK tax net otherwise I will incur a hefty tax bill.

so, just to be clear Notaio, if I make a will in the UK that includes my Italian property, is that all I need to do?

Be very useful if it was!

[QUOTE=serge]I am even more confused notaio. Does that mean if I am not Italian I can marry an Italian live in Italy all my life, have children and make a will in the country of my citizenship and leave nothing for my spouse and children and it will recognised by the Italian Law Courts?

I am also told that I can bypass all the inheritence law by transfering my properties to my heirs during my lifetime and pay only the 3% transfer tax. In the transfer deed I am told I can specify that I will have a right to live in my main residence until I die? However I will have to make sure that the I am not caught within the UK tax net otherwise I will incur a hefty tax bill.[/QUOTE]

The inheritance law of a foreign citizen is its national law.
This is what establishes italian diritto internazionale privato (private intenational law).

"L. 31-5-1995 n. 218
Riforma del sistema italiano di diritto internazionale privato.
Pubblicata nella Gazz. Uff. 3 giugno 1995, n. 128, S.O.
Capo VII - Successioni
46. Successione per causa di morte.

1. [B]La successione per causa di morte è regolata dalla legge nazionale del soggetto della cui eredità si tratta, al momento della morte.[/B]
"Inheritance is regulated by the national law of person whose legacy is dealt about, at the moment of the death" (sorry for the translation).

2. Il soggetto della cui eredità si tratta può sottoporre, con dichiarazione espressa in forma testamentaria, l'intera successione alla legge dello Stato in cui risiede. La scelta non ha effetto se al momento della morte il dichiarante non risiedeva più in tale Stato. Nell'ipotesi di successione di un cittadino italiano, la scelta non pregiudica i diritti che la legge italiana attribuisce ai legittimari residenti in Italia al momento della morte della persona della cui successione si tratta

[B]So the point is not italian law, but english law,[/B] [B]that I totally ignore[/B].

Anyway, [B]just as hypotesis[/B], let's consider a uk citizen who owns an house in Italy:
- [B]if[/B] the english law establishes that assets inherited abroad are regulated by the law of the country where they are situed, there could be a "ping pong" situation.
The italian law "sends" the ball to UK (the national law of person deceased)
The uk law "sends" the ball back (the national law of the country where the house is): so in this case the inheritance of the house would be regulated by the italian law, not because of the italian rules, but because of the english rules.

Now the question is: what happens if I'm english and I die without will (intestate) ?
According the italian law, my inheritance should follow the english law, unless the "ping pong" situation I've hypotesized.
What if I die with a will ?
It's not a matter of italian of english will, because, for the italian law

Art. 48. Forma del testamento.
1. Il testamento è valido, quanto alla forma, se è considerato tale dalla legge dello Stato nel quale il testatore ha disposto, ovvero dalla legge dello Stato di cui il testatore, al momento del testamento o della morte, era cittadino o dalla legge dello Stato in cui aveva il domicilio o la residenza.

"a will is valid if it is considered so by the law of the Country whose the deceased was citizen" (sorry again for the translation)

So an english will is as good as an italian will.
Not legal, but practical reasons might suggest an italian will: you don't need a (legal) translation of it, do not need to deposit it before a notary etc.

Just to avoid any hypotesis of legal ping pong, my advice is to establish, in the will (italian or english, it doesn't matter) that you want to regulate your inheritance with the law of the country where you live (this is allowed by the italian law, it's written above in italian).
So if you live in England, your inheritance law will be, without any doubts, the english law.

Sorry, Notaio, to be so obtuse about this, but could you help explain which country's laws apply in our case.

We are US citizens with a US will. We have a US trust through which we own all of our assets. We will be buying a house in Italy and the house will be purchased in the name of our trust. If my husband or I die, the surviving spouse becomes the sole trustee of our assets. Upon both of our deaths, our daughter becomes the new trustee and has authority to buy, sell and use any and all of the trust's assets.

We intend to have an Italian will that reiterates the provisions of our US will. Is this sufficient to ensure that while either my husband or myself are living, our estate will remain solely the survivor's? Is it sufficient to ensure that upon both of our deaths, our assets will automatically revert to our daughter?

Then, based on having a US will, US inheritence laws and taxes will apply or will the Italian laws come into play?

Our major concern is that our assets remain with the surviving spouse and then when both of die, our daughter will easily be able to assume ownership.

We don't mind bringing a lawyer into this discussion, but we just don't have a good grasp of the parameters of the issues.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

Hello again notaio. Thank you for such a full reply. My wife who is Italian (we live in the UK and in Italy but she is domiciled in Italy and I am a UK citizen but domiciled in Mauritius) tried to translate your posting: so much legal jargon about residence and domicile to consider. We decided a long time ago that the services of a good Italian lawyer is required, but your posting has raised another question that must be clarified through our Italian lawyer and perhaps an International Law lawyer as well: i.e as you are quoting Private International Law it must apply to Italians in the UK, which means that if my wife's English will, that deals with her properties in the UK, does not comply with Italian law then potential aggrieved beneficiaries in Italy may challenge it under Italian Law. It appears to me that getting probate can be really difficult and extremely costly if an aggrieved potential beneficiary challenges a foreign will. Thanks for help again. Auguri e Buon Natale!

[QUOTE=Diane and Peter]Sorry, Notaio, to be so obtuse about this, but could you help explain which country's laws apply in our case.

We are US citizens with a US will. We have a US trust through which we own all of our assets. We will be buying a house in Italy and the house will be purchased in the name of our trust. If my husband or I die, the surviving spouse becomes the sole trustee of our assets. Upon both of our deaths, our daughter becomes the new trustee and has authority to buy, sell and use any and all of the trust's assets.

We intend to have an Italian will that reiterates the provisions of our US will. Is this sufficient to ensure that while either my husband or myself are living, our estate will remain solely the survivor's? Is it sufficient to ensure that upon both of our deaths, our assets will automatically revert to our daughter?

Then, based on having a US will, US inheritence laws and taxes will apply or will the Italian laws come into play?

Our major concern is that our assets remain with the surviving spouse and then when both of die, our daughter will easily be able to assume ownership.

We don't mind bringing a lawyer into this discussion, but we just don't have a good grasp of the parameters of the issues.

Thanks for any help you can offer.[/QUOTE]

Ok, this is a real minefield for me, so consider my opinion just as "first aid".
Anyway, as far as I know, there isn't a US inheritance law, valid all around the USA, but many inheritance laws, each for every State.
So your inheritance and will should be regulated by Florida law until you live there.
According to what I said before, the italian law recognizes the foreign law and establishes that the inheritance is regulated by the law of the deceased person.
Therefore, your wills and your rules should be accepted in Italy, unless the Florida (or US) law has a ping pong rule, similar to the one I mentioned in the previous post
If I understand correctly, you're not planning to live permanently in Italy, so it's enough to update your american will, declaring that your inheritance must be regulated by your national law (Florida or USA according to your rules), even for the assets in Italy.
Of course you can have an italian will too, but it's better to have this clarification.
Just to add some more mines, you are planning to buy in Italy with a trust.
This is allowed, there's a thread on this matter.
the italian law accepts the fact that people can regulate the trust with a foreign law, so you might be allowed to do it with your laws.
Consider that in Italy it shouldn't be possible that, while one of the spouses is living, the estate remains solely the survivor's and then, upon both of deaths, the assets will automatically revert to daughters or sons (using your words).
This is forbidden.
But, since your inheritance is regulated by your national law, it seems to me you can do it.

[QUOTE=serge]
if my wife's English will, that deals with her properties in the UK, does not comply with Italian law then potential aggrieved beneficiaries in Italy may challenge it under Italian Law. [/QUOTE]

It depends on who the potential beneficiaries in Italy are.
If you're married and have children, the only potential beneficiaries, according to italian law, are the spouse and the children.
If you have not children, the only potential beneficiaries are spouse and parents.
If there are no more parents, it's allowed, with a will, leave all the estate to the spouse and nobody can deny it.
The english will is valid in Italy even if made by an italian, according to the rule I've posted in italian.

This is all really useful, thanks for going to such an effort on our behalf Notaio

Dear Notaio,

Thanks so much for such a detailed answer. I think we now know what questions we need to ask and to whom we need to direct them, both in Italy and in the US.

You're very patient and it's much appreciated.

Hello again Notaio. Many thanks for your pointers on the reform of the Italian system of private international law. With your help I have now found and bought the appropriate reference book to conduct research in to the subject prior to briefing lawyers and accountants in January. The book in question is called "International Succession" Editor: Louis Garb and its is published by Kluwer Law International Ref ISBN 9041107819 Price £120. It deals with the law of succession of forty four countries including England and Wales, Italy, USA - New York and USA Pennsylvania. Each country report is based on the responses of senior legal practitioners in the relevant countries to uniform and conprehensive questionnaires. Thanks again Notaio for your help!

:confused: [QUOTE=pamela catalano]I am sure this topic has been covered before, but cannot find anything. Could you point me to a web site, or could someone offer advice. We had our Wills done in the UK and were told that Italy must honor this UK Will. However, I have been informed that I should have had this translated into Italian and registered in Rome? I am also informed that we would have to go personally to Rome?
I am very worried as one of my Italian neighbours, (who tragically lost her husband last January), is having terrible problems,regarding the transfer of the house .
Any information will be appreciated.[/QUOTE]
Hi Pamela
We have been told by one uk Solicitor's that an english will (translated) even if one is a resident in Italy,and British subject.. would stand up in Italian Law, yet by another UK law company, they told us that was incorrect, and we would definantly be goverened by thr Italian Law.!!!!! help...

[quote]Hi Pamela
We have been told by one uk Solicitor's that an english will (translated) even if one is a resident in Italy,and British subject.. would stand up in Italian Law, yet by another UK law company, they told us that was incorrect, and we would definantly be goverened by thr Italian Law.!!!!! help...[/quote] Hi I am not Pamela but I hope this helps...

I am doing extensive reasearch on this subject before briefing professionals. Its is a minefield! As I understand it so far: the position is not the formalities but the applicable law on death that is important. "Under English Law, moveable property passes in accordance with the law of deceased's domicile at the date of his death and immoveable property passes in accordance with the law of its [I]situs.[/I]" As Notaio has said in Italy "Succession on death is regulated by the national law of the deceased (i.e that of his citizenship) at the time of his death (Article 46 of Law 218/95)." Moveable and immoveable properties are treated in the same way.

The question for me is the issue of freedom of testation in both countries. In Italy "freedom of testation is limited in that certain persons are entitled to a percentage share which the law reserves for them ("reserved share")." "The right to a reserved share is an intangible right." See the response of Nataio regarding reserved shares. This can be quite complicated. "In England and Wales there are no compulsory shares which must be left to any person under English law. Under the [I]Inheritence (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975[/I], as amended, the wife or husband of the deceased: a person who was living in the same household as the deceased "as the husband or wife" of the deceased at the date of the deceased's death and had been doing so for a period of at least two years ending with the death: a former wife or husband of the deceased who has not remarried : a child of the deceased : any person (not being a child of the deceased ) who, in the case of any marriage to which the deceased was at the time a party was treated by the deceased as a child of the family in relation to that marriage; and any person (not being the one mentioned above) who immediately before the death of the deceased was being maintained , either wholly or partly, by the deceased may apply to the court for an order for "reasonable financial provision" out of the deceased's estate if, by reason of the deceased's will or intestacy, he or she does not receive reasonable financial provision."

As Notaio has said if there are problems "conflicts of law" the will may "ping pong" [I]("renvoi")[/I] between England and Italy.

The European Commission has recognised that with growing mobilty of people in Europe, often with people acquiring properties in different countries and marrying nationals of different member states these are a major source of complication in succession to estates. The Commission has published a green paper on succesion and wills (Sec(2005)270). Closing date for comments was 30 September 2005. A Euro Will could be on its way soon!!!

For myself although my reaseach is continuing I shall be instructing lawyers in England and Italy to draft me a will in both countries each dealing with properties (moveable and immoveable ) situated in that country to comply with comply with the law of each repective country.

Taxation (InheritenceTax) is another [I]extremely important issue[/I]: England and Wales and Italy have different laws. This is another minefield and I shall be appointing accountants to advise on this issue.

I have been made aware that good professional advice on this subject is very expensive. I am getting in touch with the Law Society in England for a list practionners in this field in England and in Italy.

All material in quotes are from the book International Succession by Louis Garb (for details see my previous posting).

[QUOTE=serge]Hi I am not Pamela but I hope this helps...

I am doing extensive reasearch on this subject before briefing professionals. Its is a minefield! As I understand it so far: the position is not the formalities but the applicable law on death that is important. "Under English Law, moveable property passes in accordance with the law of deceased's domicile at the date of his death and immoveable property passes in accordance with the law of its [I]situs.[/I]" As Notaio has said in Italy "Succession on death is regulated by the national law of the deceased (i.e that of his citizenship) at the time of his death (Article 46 of Law 218/95)." Moveable and immoveable properties are treated in the same way.

The question for me is the issue of freedom of testation in both countries. In Italy "freedom of testation is limited in that certain persons are entitled to a percentage share which the law reserves for them ("reserved share")." "The right to a reserved share is an intangible right." See the response of Nataio regarding reserved shares. This can be quite complicated. "In England and Wales there are no compulsory shares which must be left to any person under English law. Under the [I]Inheritence (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975[/I], as amended, the wife or husband of the deceased: a person who was living in the same household as the deceased "as the husband or wife" of the deceased at the date of the deceased's death and had been doing so for a period of at least two years ending with the death: a former wife or husband of the deceased who has not remarried : a child of the deceased : any person (not being a child of the deceased ) who, in the case of any marriage to which the deceased was at the time a party was treated by the deceased as a child of the family in relation to that marriage; and any person (not being the one mentioned above) who immediately before the death of the deceased was being maintained , either wholly or partly, by the deceased may apply to the court for an order for "reasonable financial provision" out of the deceased's estate if, by reason of the deceased's will or intestacy, he or she does not receive reasonable financial provision."

As Notaio has said if there are problems "conflicts of law" the will may "ping pong" [I]("renvoi")[/I] between England and Italy.

The European Commission has recognised that with growing mobilty of people in Europe, often with people acquiring properties in different countries and marrying nationals of different member states these are a major source of complication in succession to estates. The Commission has published a green paper on succesion and wills (Sec(2005)270). Closing date for comments was 30 September 2005. A Euro Will could be on its way soon!!!

For myself although my reaseach is continuing I shall be instructing lawyers in England and Italy to draft me a will in both countries each dealing with properties (moveable and immoveable ) situated in that country to comply with comply with the law of each repective country.

Taxation (InheritenceTax) is another [I]extremely important issue[/I]: England and Wales and Italy have different laws. This is another minefield and I shall be appointing accountants to advise on this issue.

I have been made aware that good professional advice on this subject is very expensive. I am getting in touch with the Law Society in England for a list practionners in this field in England and in Italy.

All material in quotes are from the book International Succession by Louis Garb (for details see my previous posting).[/QUOTE]

If you're interested, there is an article on this matter I've just found and that I can post privately.
It's rather technical and in italian, but it's just about uk inheritance, related with italian law.
BTW, the article confirms my "ping pong" hypotesis about english law.

[QUOTE=notaio]If you're interested, there is an artic on this matter I've just found and that I can post privately.
It's rather technical and in italian, but it's just about uk inheritance, related with italian law.
BTW, the article confirms my "ping pong" hypotesis about english law.[/QUOTE]
Thanks so much for your help. it would be great if you would post this to me..Still confused though!!!Sals:confused:

[QUOTE=sals]:confused:
Hi Pamela
We have been told by one uk Solicitor's that an english will (translated) even if one is a resident in Italy,and British subject.. would stand up in Italian Law, yet by another UK law company, they told us that was incorrect, and we would definantly be goverened by thr Italian Law.!!!!! help...[/QUOTE]

Firstly may I thank everyone who has taken the time to write to Forum, I only wish I had known about Italy Magazine before coming to live here. To repeat what someone else said " it is a minefield". I have had word from friends in the UK who have consulted lawyers in England, ( costing a small fortune"), and they are no clearer now than before they started. For the Notaio -
I would like to know if it is possible to relinquish my Italian residency, pay any extra tax or VAT required and stay British. My husband has not requested residency,( the house is in my name), because he was so scared that if he died the Italians would cause too many problems for me. Although he was born and bred in Italy , he would not give up his British Nationality under torture.Once more thanks to you all for your help.

Hello Pamela

I know you addressed the question to Notaio. My research has progressed a great deal further. I will post in the next few days (I am extremely busy packing: I am flying back to Italy to-morrow morning. Spent a week in England Xmas shopping and introducing Santa to my two and half year old daughter. I could not find Santa in any of the Italian major stores in Florence, I suppose he could be in Rome or Milan. It took three hours of wait for her to visit the Harrods Santa.) a full account of my understanding of the succesion and inheritence tax laws of Italy and England and Wales and how they interact. I know I said that the whole thing is a minefield but I am beginning to see my way through it (if I get blown up my estate will lose a lot of money in taxes and sorting out disputes!!!). In the meantime one thing seems to be clear to me as Notaio has said: succession upon death in Italy is regulated by the national law of the deceased (that is that of citizenship) at the time of death. Under English Law moveable property passes in accordance with the law of the deceased's [B]domicile[/B] at the date of his death and immoveable property in accordance with the law of [I]its situs[/I]. Residence for taxation purposes has little or no bearing on inheritance tax or the English or Italian laws of succession. I will also deal with the question of domicile in my next posting.

Hi Serge, Thanks for your mail, I hope your little girl enjoyed meeting
Santa Claus . Thanks for your replies and may I take this opportunity of wishing you & your family, and all my friends on Forum a very Merry Christmas and a Happy & Prosperous New Year.
Do you think Bobbo Natale would grant us all a wish that Enel will put down the prices, Liquigas will be cheaper and every public office will be super efficient in 2006 ? Even if we have been good I do not think he will give us our wish do you ? Happy holidays everyone, go easy on the panettone.....

Pamela

[QUOTE=serge]Hello Pamela

I know you addressed the question to Notaio. My research has progressed a great deal further. I will post in the next few days (I am extremely busy packing: I am flying back to Italy to-morrow morning. Spent a week in England Xmas shopping and introducing Santa to my two and half year old daughter. I could not find Santa in any of the Italian major stores in Florence, I suppose he could be in Rome or Milan. It took three hours of wait for her to visit the Harrods Santa.) a full account of my understanding of the succesion and inheritence tax laws of Italy and England and Wales and how they interact. I know I said that the whole thing is a minefield but I am beginning to see my way through it (if I get blown up my estate will lose a lot of money in taxes and sorting out disputes!!!). In the meantime one thing seems to be clear to me as Notaio has said: succession upon death in Italy is regulated by the national law of the deceased (that is that of citizenship) at the time of death. Under English Law moveable property passes in accordance with the law of the deceased's [B]domicile[/B] at the date of his death and immoveable property in accordance with the law of [I]its situs[/I]. Residence for taxation purposes has little or no bearing on inheritance tax or the English or Italian laws of succession. I will also deal with the question of domicile in my next posting.[/QUOTE]