2266 puzzle of certifico

becky A3 is a abitazione di tipo ecomomico... and A4 is di tipo popolare... in reallity one is cheap housing and one..the second is council housing... but in reallity this is not uncommon to have different designations for parts of houses...especially old ones... but the catastal values seem high...but thats an opinion...

land is always listed with plot numbers and usage and the reditto domincale i think is the estimated income generated from working the land

so no i dont think its a worry...but try again with your agents to get maybe a better explanation.... tomorrow..is a holiday here which might be the problem in contacting them..... and i am sure when mr joseph or notaio get on the board they will be able to explain it more clearly

Hi Becky,
John gave you - correctly - most of the infomations you need.
Probably, the house you're now going to buy, were originally two separated houses, may be bought in different times and the vendor has never "melted" them officially in a single house in the catasto.
This is no rare, especially with old houses.
It shouldn't have effects for your purchase [B]IF[/B] the vendor is the same for both the houses (A/3 & A/4), otherwise you're going to have two contracts, with a higher cost: this is an information you can easly receive from the notary you've appointed (or are going to appont).
The land belonging to the house is listed in catasto terreni (rural), because there is a catasto for land and a catasto for buildings.

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]Thanks to you both...I can now understand as the house is in 2 parts one much older the other added about 70 years ago but both owned by the sellers!

Becky[/FONT]

Ok can you also explain what Semin Arbor 3 means, I guess it means the land and the Trullo called Fabb Rurale means rural house. Now we also have a large pile of stones/walls that we are not sure if once a Trullo or animal pens which is also on the certificate as Fabb Rurale. Would animal pens also be called Fabb Rurale?

Final question the change in declared tax laws, is this only on Urban houses or does it apply to Rurale too?

Thanks

Notaio, Adriatica, Charles anyone! Do you know the answers??? :)

trullo

semin arbor.... at a guess means you have a bit of land with trees on...eg planted with trees is the literal translation...

the desiganation of the rural building... is in regards to all farm buildings ...ie even a farm house on a farm is designated this way.... any building listed is valuable to you whatever it is ...ruin barn or whatever...it gives you scope for development ...providing plans are accepted and you have the money... to rebuild either with the same footprint or with scope for a percentual increase and depending on the commune and the volumes allowed the height can be higher or at the same as the previous height of the ruin

i sometimes get mixed up with urban and rural things but think that if its farm you still do not pay tax on the catastal valuation but iva instead...

have hesitated in replying because am pretty sure about the land designation...and briefly and in laymens terms the rural building situation.... the tax part...slightly not and i would suggest you need confirmation....

sure now ive replied notary or mr joseph will put me in my place and your get a fuller more comprehensive answer

Thanks Adriatica, thats great. Not to worry about the tax as our notary has got to let us know final sum by next week or yet another completion date will go by!

As for the ruin until we get a geometra (who can be bothered to tell us the truth this time) we are not sure about the original hight of the walls. By looking at what is left we think its probably a group of animal pens so may not be able to put a roof on. Anyway although when we first found the place it was important to be able to extend we are not really that worried at the mo.

Oh by the way, don't get so wound up about Puglia lists and web cams we have to except that we are not all interested in the same things. Like I have except you like to talk about things in great detail and depth and the Puglia list is no different than stribs's list for Abruzzo, just helps those in a perticular area. Yes chit chat that goes on and on can be anoying, as are disputes but hey, we can take it or leave it. Thats the conclusion I have come to now, take the good with the bad, bit like buying a Trullo in Italy! :D :cool: :D

trullo

might have confused you and myself a bit... the ruin...even if pig sheds...or whatever...if listed as a building has a value... you do not have to build the same building....

why i mentioned about heights ...ie its calculated on sq m and volume is that each commune has its various designations for certain areas.... so say where most buildings are only one storey high or in certain outstanding arreas of natural beuaty.... the volume will be limited.... ie you could maybe only rebuild to the height of a single storey house...or barn....

so therefore a registered building on your land gives you almost the first stage of a planning consent...you have the right to build...its the type of building you choose that the rules will apply to....

is that clearer ????????

never bother getting wound up... just like to argue.... unfair on stribs.. i think...he seems to be managing his list in a slightly more discreet way.... and i despite not joining his list think it is of help when buying a house here in italy that you might have someone that knows the ropes living closeby... try searching on puglia now though and the first ten million posts hold lists of names and numbers.... and chit chat is fine...in fact thats what this is... but there is a conversation area for members that few seem to post in when they do want to have a chit chat...... friendly banter and adjournments to posts make the place friendly in general... but you know me and puglia

[quote=adriatica]trullo

might have confused you and myself a bit... the ruin...even if pig sheds...or whatever...if listed as a building has a value... you do not have to build the same building....

why i mentioned about heights ...ie its calculated on sq m and volume is that each commune has its various designations for certain areas.... so say where most buildings are only one storey high or in certain outstanding arreas of natural beuaty.... the volume will be limited.... ie you could maybe only rebuild to the height of a single storey house...or barn....

so therefore a registered building on your land gives you almost the first stage of a planning consent...you have the right to build...its the type of building you choose that the rules will apply to....

is that clearer ????????
[/quote]

Yes, I understood but because we think the walls never were high and never a roof then the commune may only allow what was origonally there. It's all been a little confusing the owners say it was a Trullo but the walls do not look thick enough for this to be so but the agent and their Geometra (who we don't deal with anymore) say no problem but they would say that anyway! Have tried to get amswers from commune but they are in a mess due to some high up guy being kicked out of office (probably the Mafia :D ) We will see once we get the opportunity to pin someone down for some answers! Thanks for the info though it all goes to understanding a little more. Have attached pic of ruin.

As for other part of our chat I have moved it to another thread as it's got nothing to do with this one and yes I get pi**ed off with irrelevances in the wrong thread. My fault I put the comment in here!

[SIZE="3"]I started this thread so I thought that I'd add another comment!

Why oh why don't these agents have a section of their web site that explains all these various catergories to us ignorant brits!! ?

Surely it's not beyond their powers of reasoning that we will not have a clue as to what some of these obscure catergories are and that we will want to know at some stage?

When I've had a bit more experience in Italy this year I'm going to complie my own list and publish it here!
BUT maybe one of you residents may have already done this??

Becky[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca]Ok can you also explain what Semin Arbor 3 means, I guess it means the land and the Trullo called Fabb Rurale means rural house. Now we also have a large pile of stones/walls that we are not sure if once a Trullo or animal pens which is also on the certificate as Fabb Rurale. Would animal pens also be called Fabb Rurale?

Final question the change in declared tax laws, is this only on Urban houses or does it apply to Rurale too?

Thanks[/QUOTE]

1) Semin Arbor means "seminativo arboreo" (seedable woody - not so sure with the translation) and it's about the quality of the land as certified by the Catasto.
All the lands are evaluated acording to their quality: pasture, wood, vineyard etc. and this certification has effect on their fiscal value.
Fabb. rurale means rural building and it's a kind of building used for agricultural purposes.
It could be an house where peasants live, but even a stable, a wharehouse etc.
2) I do not think that a mere animal pens might be considered a fabbricato rurale. Probably the stones belonging to your trullo are the ruins of an old construction (a wharehouse ?)
The fact that these ruins are existing in the catasto it's a good thing, becouse you can recover their volume. Have the sellers some old photos of that ruin before it was a ruin ? some comuni accept thes kind of documents to allow the makeover.
3) The new system of the declared prices it's only about urban houses, it doesn't apply to fabbricati rurali.

[quote=notaio]1) Semin Arbor means "seminativo arboreo" (seedable woody - not so sure with the translation) and it's about the quality of the land as certified by the Catasto.
All the lands are evaluated acording to their quality: pasture, wood, vineyard etc. and this certification has effect on their fiscal value.
Fabb. rurale means rural building and it's a kind of building used for agricultural purposes.
It could be an house where peasants live, but even a stable, a wharehouse etc.
2) I do not think that a mere animal pens might be considered a fabbricato rurale. Probably the stones belonging to your trullo are the ruins of an old construction (a wharehouse ?)
The fact that these ruins are existing in the catasto it's a good thing, becouse you can recover their volume. Have the sellers some old photos of that ruin before it was a ruin ? some comuni accept thes kind of documents to allow the makeover.
3) The new system of the declared prices it's only about urban houses, it doesn't apply to fabbricati rurali.[/quote]

Peasant house is fine, don't have a lot of money! :D
Thanks for the reply adds a little more to Adriatica's.
Had a nasty feeling the new tax law would not apply to Rural Fabbricati, oh well such is life!

becky sometimes these classifications are more complicated than they look... and often different things can change how they are interpreted... its not quite so easy as just a list.... which is why when i reply to say a classification without seeing a full documentary history of a property it can almost be mis leading.... the books regarding these things are massive ...the knowledge required to interpret the whole thing needs to be very comprehensive... in a sense i understand and reply to things in lay persons language and this can allow inaccuracy... which is fine on a general forum but when actually paying your money and buying ... its best to have fully qualified and accurate help.... one of the reasons its so handy having the notary and mr joseph .... having read a few of these documents associated with houses i would say in general i can fully understand about half....at most...some more complicated than others even less.... thats why you pay money to people that can interpret the thing for you.... in essence even if you look at a document associated with a house in england it does not make very clear reading.... ie you might well get most of the sense of it...but there will be large tracts of legal talk...that no one can be exactly sure of the meaning of... unless they also write those sorts of things...so these classifications have to be taken in the whole ... and a list might well be of little help....

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]hi all

Just in case anyone is interested I've solved the mystery of my certifico...Sara at my agents emailed me to say that the secretary at the notaries had mistakenly added another property to my certifico!!

What I want to know now is does this mean that I now have this place for free!!yipee!!I wonder if I had not said anything would the certifico have been registered without this property being taken off???who knows?

Ciao[/SIZE][/FONT]

[QUOTE=manopello][SIZE="3"]I started this thread so I thought that I'd add another comment!

Why oh why don't these agents have a section of their web site that explains all these various catergories to us ignorant brits!! ?

Surely it's not beyond their powers of reasoning that we will not have a clue as to what some of these obscure catergories are and that we will want to know at some stage?

When I've had a bit more experience in Italy this year I'm going to complie my own list and publish it here!
BUT maybe one of you residents may have already done this??

Becky[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

It's not very important unless you are an inverstor but even them...all Italians - a part from agents, geometras and civil engineers - ignore the list.

Anyway if you're interested here we go.

There are 5 groups but you'll mainly get involved only with the first group the “A” one:

A/1 Posh dwelling
A/2 Civil dwelling
A/3 Economic dwelling
A/4 Popular dwelling
A/5 Ultra-popular dwelling
A/6 Rural dwelling
A/7 Dwelling in a “villino” (small detach house)
A/8 Dwelling in villa
A/9 Castles, estates with historical and artistic value
A/10 Offices and private studies
A/11 Dwelling and lodging “typical” of the places