1775 How to deal with dubious estate agents in the forum

So why not just delete the one message........? The rest of the thread was useful.

Hi tuscanhills,

yeap - I realised that about 10 seconds after I closed the thread :-)

So now the thread is available again with the name of the estate agent removed.

Cheers,

Ronald

..........as an aside, if all Alice is doing is stating her experiences (rather than adding an assessment of thos experiences), why not keep it posted?

If I were to say I went to YYY & this is what happened to me, we're sticking to facts & not assessment & not slandering people, surely?

If one were to say I went to XXX & it was good, is that OK too? I know that there's an onus on Forums to have a control on what's posted, but does this mean that you'll be editing recommendations too? What if someone takes the recommendation & fails to enjoy it........ are you liable for that too?
;)
OK, I'm being a touch obtuse, but it's a fine line!

the reasoning is very simple:

if A says that B is excellent then B is not likely to complain and there is no law about flattery

if A says that B is bad then there is a law to deal with these things.

Also, keep in mind that whenever we see a post that is full of praise for some company we need to think carefully about the extend to which the praise is simply a hidden form of advertising.

At the same time (and I am not implying that these is the case with the most recent dubious estate agent thread) when someone says that someone else is very bad then we must also think about whether that is a form of hidden competition-bashing.

And that in a nutshell is the challenge of running a public forum. Whatever you say here, gets save and Uncle Google comes along (along with uncle Microsoft and aunty Yahoo!) and scoops it up and saves it as well - so we need to be a bit more careful.

Hope this make sense. There is still plenty of scope for discussion - just keep the exchange of names in private messages and e-mails.

I read the post and thought a lot about it.....one person's experience of an agent can be v.good another v.bad.

Both should be disscussed and we all make up our own minds...I've only been on this forum a bit but I think I can read a lot about the members by reading their posts (not just where they live) and I can take some with the proverbial pinch of salt.

It's hard on the agents when they get a v.bad post but I suppose they could register as a 'punter' and put in good posts on their behalf?

Why not have a specail forum for rating agents like ebay use with feedback and let buyers check on their status before they use them? If they get too much negative feedback they are blacklisted!

I too used to believe in free speech, but recently the gravity of my newly-conferred status of Senator has given me cause to reconsider.
Its damned annoying when the Plebians use the Forum to talk amongst themselves when what they should be doing is facing forward and listening to what we, the patrician class, are saying to them from the lofty heights of our podia.
The way they've been behaving recently, anyone would think they owned the place.

Buona Sera Ronald,

If one is parading opinion as fact, then pull it.
If one is parading fact as fact then where is the problem?

Surely you can tell the difference purely by the wording used.

Salve

If something claimed to be libellous is actually true, then that's a defence against a libel claim in court. The slight problem is that of course you have to be able to [I]prove[/I] that it's true to the satisfaction of a judge and jury, if things ever got that far.

Therein lies the peril for moderators like Ronald.

Mike

Rob - unfortunately telling the difference is not always that easy and mistakes can happen that way.

Mike - you hit the nail on the proverbial head.

However its not just about not getting things to court and worrying about the law.

Its about being fair and balanced as well.

I think there is an argument to be made (outside of any legal considerations) against premitting the naming of companies (especially small ones) on the forum in a way that is detrimental.

It is unfair because checking the facts is very difficult and it is unbalanced because we would have to find the owners of these companies and ask them for their side of the story as well.

Imagine BBC's Watchdog without the team of experts behind it that check that the complaints are real before going to air and that call the companies to allow them to reply.

As I already said - please share your experiences and what you think you did wrong that led to having to deal with a bad company. Please invite people to contact you privately so that you can share further details outside a public forum.

[QUOTE=ronald]Rob - unfortunately telling the difference is not always that easy and mistakes can happen that way.

Mike - you hit the nail on the proverbial head.

However its not just about not getting things to court and worrying about the law.

Its about being fair and balanced as well.

I think there is an argument to be made (outside of any legal considerations) against premitting the naming of companies (especially small ones) on the forum in a way that is detrimental.

It is unfair because checking the facts is very difficult and it is unbalanced because we would have to find the owners of these companies and ask them for their side of the story as well.

Imagine BBC's Watchdog without the team of experts behind it that check that the complaints are real before going to air and that call the companies to allow them to reply.

As I already said - please share your experiences and what you think you did wrong that led to having to deal with a bad company. Please invite people to contact you privately so that you can share further details outside a public forum.[/QUOTE]

I think that's fair comment.

I do too.
Despite my provocative post further up, I think Ronald has put the case for anonimity well.

I've read the above comments and would like to thank those who have supported my posting - in fact all comments are welcomed so that there's a balance.

When I named this agent it wasn't with an easy conscience. I am aware that there could be implications for the forum host. However, this case is backed by hard evidence and the implications for others could be very expensive.

I felt a moral obligation to disclose. I don't know whether a forum host is allowed the same sense of moral.

Incidentally, if I've understood Marc's posting correctly, is the forum meant to work such that a Pleb posts a thread and then a senior member puts a reply. After that Plebs should say no more?

[QUOTE=yorkshirelass]Incidentally, if I've understood Marc's posting correctly, is the forum meant to work such that a Pleb posts a thread and then a senior member puts a reply. After that Plebs should say no more?[/QUOTE]

Only if you want George to reply and tell the Pleb to use the search facility because that question has already been asked by someone else! [img]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

thank you all for understanding the situation!

yorkshirelass let me just make clear that I complete understand your reaction and I do hope that things will take a turn for the better in the future.

Also I'll use brendagfc's comment about the search facility to mention that the updated forums (coming to a screen near you soon) will have a better search facility :) so all those plebs might be spared the wrath of you senators.

[QUOTE=yorkshirelass]Incidentally, if I've understood Marc's posting correctly, is the forum meant to work such that a Pleb posts a thread and then a senior member puts a reply. After that Plebs should say no more?[/QUOTE]

Not at all YorkshireLass. It was a pathetic attempt at irony.

Let us not forget the Plebeian discontent during the early developments in the history of the Roman Republic. In fact, the publication of Rome’s first code of law was secured by the plebs.

Tend to agree with the comments on this thread. Sometimes in the heat of the moment it is easy to forget and even when trying to take a balanced view, it is still possible to make mistakes.

I think it is best to avoid any potential traps that could draw us into the very complex and contentious subject of Tort Law.

As a matter of interest…potential buyers be aware that an agent can use what is called a Contratto per Persona da Nominare. This, in effect, enables the agent to draw up the preliminary contract but reserve the right to insert the final buyer’s name later on, although this has to be done within 3 days of the Atto Pubblico. This is perfectly legal in Italy, although it is speculative because there is no guarantee that the final buyer will actually go ahead.

This means the agent can buy for 10 and sell for 15. In these situations, you can inadvertently allow the agent to act on your behalf, but you are still buying at 15, whereas the agent makes a nice tidy profit. Obviously both vendor and buyer are kept in the dark, otherwise they could object. But because this process is legal, you need to be absolutely sure and you need to have unequivocal proof that the agent is committing any kind of fraud before seeking remedial action.

The best way to avoid this is to appoint a solicitor to act on your behalf.

Heck, Charles, I'm never buying here again... I guess I'll just have to stay in this house forever, phew, mind you, that's not too bad, I could still be in England :) ;)
I will not be drawn into the Pleb. debate though, other than to say that I can forsee one or two of them getting a bit "above themselves" as time goes on... then they'll start to think for themselves, then goodness only knows what will happen, off for my violin lesson ;)

[QUOTE=Charles Joseph]

This means the agent can buy for 10 and sell for 15. In these situations, you can inadvertently allow the agent to act on your behalf, but you are still buying at 15, whereas the agent makes a nice tidy profit. Obviously both vendor and buyer are kept in the dark, otherwise they could object. But because this process is legal, you need to be absolutely sure and you need to have unequivocal proof that the agent is committing any kind of fraud before seeking remedial action.

The best way to avoid this is to appoint a solicitor to act on your behalf.[/QUOTE]

I'm only responding so that I can highlight this again, as this is vital information for those of us who are going to be buyers. Thank you very much for posting this Charles!

Hi CJ,
Re; your previous post;

What sort of scenario would allow a potential buyer to 'inadvertently allow an agent to act on your behalf '?

Grazie in l'anticipo
Rob

[QUOTE=Charles JosephAs a matter of interest…potential buyers be aware that an agent can use what is called a Contratto per Persona da Nominare. This, in effect, enables the agent to draw up the preliminary contract but reserve the right to insert the final buyer’s name later on, although this has to be done within 3 days of the Atto Pubblico. This is perfectly legal in Italy, although it is speculative because there is no guarantee that the final buyer will actually go ahead.

This means the agent can buy for 10 and sell for 15. In these situations, you can inadvertently allow the agent to act on your behalf, but you are still buying at 15, whereas the agent makes a nice tidy profit. Obviously both vendor and buyer are kept in the dark, otherwise they could object. But because this process is legal, you need to be absolutely sure and you need to have unequivocal proof that the agent is committing any kind of fraud before seeking remedial action.
QUOTE]

Very interesting. We had heard rumours re an agent (English, I am sorry to say) quite near to us in Le Marche who was doing just that, ie buying at 10 selling at 15 and could not work out how she consistently got away with it. Presumably this is what she is up to? So, now we know!!! Clearly a loophole in the law that is easily exploited by the agent, unless you follow Charles advice that is! Only in Italy, could fraud not be fraud!!!

Anne2

You have raised 2 important points here with regards to:

A) Brits and other non-Italians who are perhaps among some of the worst offenders

B) Areas of divergence between legal systems (previous threads debate this issue).

This postponement of the identification of the person who, in effect, assumes all rights and obligations under the terms of the contract is common in Italy. It is covered by the principle of freedom of contract as per article 1322 of the Civil Code.

Obviously, an overseas buyer who neither speaks Italian nor understands the legal culture of the country is not in the best position to understand his/her rights when it comes to buying immovable property. Like all things, the remedy is really not that difficult, providing people take some necessary precautions. Now, if Il Sole 24 Ore runs a series of articles identifying the risks and providing advice to Italians on how to mitigate them, then this business of doing things the “Italian way” (at least when it comes to property as some proponents would have you believe) is complete and utter nonsense!

Today, as we continue to debate these issues on Forum, there are still far too many people entering into ill prepared agreements and handing over money unnecessarily without knowing where they stand legally.

Just to pick up on what GeorgeS wrote: For the benefit of all potential buyers out there, Italy is still a great place so there’s no need to panic. It just takes a little bit of common sense!

Rob: I guess it most likely happens when you entrust an agent in your own country, working through an Italian Partner, to act on your behalf in all matters concerning the purchase without really knowing anything about 1) the person you are appointing and 2) knowing your rights under Italian law.

When an agent buys at 10 and sells at 15 who has been defrauded, the buyer or the seller?

[QUOTE=sdoj]When an agent buys at 10 and sells at 15 who has been defrauded, the buyer or the seller?[/QUOTE]

It would seem under Italian law neither!

However, I doubt any buyer would be terribly impressed to subsequently learn that the seller was actually selling for 10 rather than the 15 they had agreed to pay having been told by the agent that this was the asking price. Also, I doubt any seller would be impressed to hear that the buyer paid 15 rather than the 10 reported by the agent!! It may not be illegal but it must surely be considered dishonest as both buyer and seller are kept in the dark re this extra profit earned by the agent in addition to the commission paid by both parties.

[QUOTE=anne2]It would seem under Italian law neither!

However, I doubt any buyer would be terribly impressed to subsequently learn that the seller was actually selling for 10 rather than the 15 they had agreed to pay having been told by the agent that this was the asking price. Also, I doubt any seller would be impressed to hear that the buyer paid 15 rather than the 10 reported by the agent!! It may not be illegal but it must surely be considered dishonest as both buyer and seller are kept in the dark re this extra profit earned by the agent in addition to the commission paid by both parties.[/QUOTE]

Some people would refer to it as Capitalism, rather than "fraud", errm, how much do you py for a pint of milk in your local supermarket, without demanding to know how much they buy it in for ??
I do however agree, it is a bad way to make a profit and relies on the buyer and seller being unable to converse, which is why I wish I had engaged an English speaking solicitor as opposed to going "Italian" as my agent recomended, having "MUG" tattoed on my forehead wasn't fun...

a question....and where does the notary come in...and his ability to make sure the sale all goes through checking bits and pieces here and there.... i reiterate a point from another posting i made.... do away with notaries and get your own solicitors in.... people place to much faith in that systenm too....

i also would like to thank charles.... know a certain italian house seller hereabouts...who doubles... even triples the price the seller has asked for .... and often wondered how he managed to conceal a real loss to the owner of 100,000 plus euro when it came to paying over money and declared prices at the notaries office.... sad to say he also has his properties advertised on a long lived english site through another agent... who just happens to have recently bought a brand new top quality 4X4.... longevity does not relate to honesty.... it often just means they have more funds available thanks to sharper practices over a longer period to advertise more

I'm confused by this

When I did the compromesso all of the owners turned up at the notaois and I had bankers drafts for the of 20% of the price of the house and cash for one with no bank account which I personally handed over.

How could they not be getting the full price they wanted for the house as they were there to see I handed it over?

In England, an estate agent is employed by the seller to get the best possible price for their property because it is they who pay the piper. Supposing it were to work the same way in Italy then we would all be buying our houses at 15 - and the vendor would be grateful to the agent for the extra 5 ! QED Charles?

I have a question. Our home is on the market here in the US. We have an agent
(called the Sellers agent). We work out with them our selling price, which is the
Sellers price. The Sellers price is the only price that can be used. The home with the price is then put on what is called the "Multiple Listing Service" for all to see. The Seller (which would be us.) pays all commissions. If our agent sells our home they get a full 6% of the selling price. If the Buyers agent brings an agreed upon offer in, they split the commission (3% for Buyers agent and 3% for Sellers agent). Nobody but our agent lists our home, but anyone can find our home through our agents website, "Realtors.com" or the "Multiple Listing Service". There can be mutiple offers, and we as the sellers are in complete charge of our own property and nobody can make a profit off of us and get more than their either 3% or 6% (that we pay to them after the sale of the house is complete.) Is this the way it works in the UK? Just curious.

[QUOTE=greatscott]I have a question. Our home is on the market here in the US. We have an agent
(called the Sellers agent). We work out with them our selling price, which is the
Sellers price. The Sellers price is the only price that can be used. The home with the price is then put on what is called the "Multiple Listing Service" for all to see. The Seller (which would be us.) pays all commissions. If our agent sells our home they get a full 6% of the selling price. If the Buyers agent brings an agreed upon offer in, they split the commission (3% for Buyers agent and 3% for Sellers agent). Nobody but our agent lists our home, but anyone can find our home through our agents website, "Realtors.com" or the "Multiple Listing Service". There can be mutiple offers, and we as the sellers are in complete charge of our own property and nobody can make a profit off of us and get more than their either 3% or 6% (that we pay to them after the sale of the house is complete.) Is this the way it works in the UK? Just curious.[/QUOTE]

We Limeys are a bit stingier and only the seller pays commission: 1-2% depending whether single or multiple agent, sometimes at the very top end of the market people employ their own agent to help them find a house. But in general we are such a crowded tiny place that it is sufficient to drive around the area where you would like to live and take a note of the "For Sale" boards and go see the agents. I don't know exactly how it works in Italy but it is a land spilling over with all types of agents and mediatore so I guess more like the US system with perhaps someone else in the middle for good luck.

There is a lovely old print where we see two litigants, a lawyer and a cow, one pulling its horns the other its tail while the lawyer is craftily milking the beast. Does anyone know who it was by and where I could get a copy? It would take proud of place in my rustico when I finally get around to buying it.

[QUOTE=sdoj]We Limeys are a bit stingier and only the seller pays commission: 1-2% depending whether single or multiple agent, sometimes at the very top end of the market people employ their own agent to help them find a house. But in general we are such a crowded tiny place that it is sufficient to drive around the area where you would like to live and take a note of the "For Sale" boards and go see the agents.[COLOR=Blue] [I]I don't know exactly how it works in Italy but it is a land spilling over with all types of agents and mediatore so I guess more like the US system with perhaps someone else in the middle for good luck.[/I][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

:confused:

Thanks for your explaination, except for the part I indicated. We have agents
making a percentage, but there are "no additional middlemen in the US scooping up more than what is set down in price by the Seller as can occur in Italy". I'm thinking this is also true in the UK, correct? I think that is what you are saying, right? There are agreements made where the Sellers agent can make less, I'm just posting the average selling situation.

[QUOTE=greatscott]:confused:

Thanks for your explaination, except for the part I indicated. We have agents
making a percentage, but there are "no additonal middlemen in the US scooping up more than what is set down in price by the Seller as can occur in Italy". I'm thinking this is also true in the UK, correct? There are agreements made where the Sellers agent can make less, I'm just posting the average selling situation.

I[/QUOTE]

In the UK you hear the occasional horror story: typically...old granny dies...dodgy solicitor is executor of the will...sells to his mate (agent's brother-in-law) house straight onto the market with whopping great premium to be divided three ways. The beneficiary of the will (distant nephew of the deceased) who is working on an oil rig somewhere in the ocean is grateful that the nice solicitor took care of it all for him and he charged hardly anything at all!
But in general, it is close to a perfect market in as much as everyone knows what their home is worth and so the opportunities for crooking the seller are far reduced. In rural italy you are dealing with places that are sold very rarely and perhaps where the local economy doesn't provide sufficient for those earning their daily crust there to renovate any of the old rusticos. So how does anyone decide what is the true value? A good honest selling agent would feel your foreign pockets and try to bring as much home for the Rossi's as they could. But in the example that has been used above the price should be closer to 15 than 10, otherwise it is the local who is being short changed and they may well be your neighbours that you will ask to keep the keys and an eye on the place when you are away.

Reading the previous posts I think that some informations might be necessary.
They might be a little tedious, but after all it's a legal forum.

1 - Contratto per persona da nominare
It is not a sort of fraud, but a very common contract, often used.
With this contract one of the parties (the buyer) reserves the right to insert the final buyer’s name later on.
This may happen:
a - (very seldom) at the moment of the atto pubblico, when the property is transferred from the seller to the buyer and in this case, for fiscal reasons, the designation of the final buyer must be made within 3 days from the atto pubblico
b - at the moment of compromesso, when the seller promises to sell and the buyer promises to buy
[B]Practically all the compromessi are made "per persona da nominare".[/B]
If those of you who've already bought a property in Italy have a look at their compromesso (that went before the atto pubblico), they'll note that it has been drafted in that way (it shuld be so if you had good legal adivices).
Why does it happen ?
Essentially to make more flexible the negotiation.
Here are some exapmples:
- a couple of spouses wants to buy an house but only one of them is ready to sign the compromesso and there's no proxy at hands
- a parent wants to buy an house for his children
- the buyer wants to register the house in the name of a company, but the company hasn't been established yet.... and so on
The buyer is not bound to purchase necessarly at his name, but also at someone else name
Is it a fraud for the seller?
Of course no, since he knows he's selling per persona da nominare and there is the agreement about the price.
Is it a fraud for the designated person ?
No if he's purchasing at the same conditions of the first buyer.

What happens if someone buys at 10 and sells at 15 ?
In this case we're out from the kind of contract we've been talking about, but in front of a "vendita di cosa altrui" or in english "someone else's good selling" (not so sure about the translation).
It is legal, but the seller has the obligation to procure the property to the final buyer.
Let's imagine I want to sell to Adriatica the trullo owned by TrulloMartinafranca down there in Puglia.
Me and Adriatica may sign a contract where I sell Trullo's trullo for 15, I inform Adratica that the trullo is not mine and must procure him the property.
If Adratica accepts the deal he is bound to buy and I'm bound too.
Of course I'll take this risk only if I'm sure that Trullo (Martina) will sell her trullo: i.e. if I've compromesso signed with her.
What happens if I've bought from Trullo at 10 and now I'm selling the asset at 15 ?
Well, how Georges correctly said: this is capitalism folks !!
Trullo has a deal for 10 and for that price she's happy, so if I've been so smart to find another person (Adriatica) who's willing to buy at a different price I'm not legally to blame if I'm able to have a profit and if, of course, Trullo is a mentally capable person.
(p.s.I say legally, not morally).

How can the final buyer be aware that his seller isn't the effective owner ?
Remember that we're always talking of compromesso, this couldn't happen with atto pubblico, because the notary checks the vendor's ownership and wouldn't draft the contract if the vendor is not able to transfer the property.
About compromesso instead.
If the compromesso is drafted by a notary (since he's checked the property anyway), he'll warn the buyer that his seller isn't the owner and if this one (the buyer) wants still to carry on the negotiation, the notary will draft the compromesso in order to garantee the buyer.
If the compromesso is drafted by a lawyer with adeguate aknowledge of the land register (Conservatoria) that is if he has checked the vendor's ownership, the contract should be drafted with the necessaries guaranties too.
In these cases, the buyer knows what is purchasing (someone else's property) and can also imagine that his vendor is having a profit.
In my experience this happens often with new apartaments in condominiums built by building companies.
The company promises to sells (compromesso) some of the apartaments still under construction to a person that will try to sell them at a higher price.
As Chrles stressed, this is speculative (not illegal) because there is no guarantee that the intermediate buyer willl find a final buyer.

The grey zone rises is if the preliminary contract isn't drafted by professionals (notary or solicitor).
As you can imagine, the buyer might not be aware of all the risks and could have already payed part of the price to a person who's not able to sell him anything, because no notary would draft the atto pubblico.

We are close to a fraude if the mechanism of the "someone else's asset selling" is put to use by a real estate agent.
An agent must facilitate the sellings and his fee is the only profit he's allowed to get, so he cannot be, at the same time, part of the negotiation (with his own interest) and broker.
It is an evident fraud if the agent persuades the seller that a (low) price is correct and instead he's planning to sell at a higher price.
It might be considerd fraud on the buyer side too.

A legal advice could help ?
Of course yes, but consider some practical circumstances.
If I've seen my dreams' house and I find that the price is wothwhile, at the end I might not consider if the person who's selling it is having a profit, nor a lawyer might be able to suggest me the "right" price.

[QUOTE=notaio]A legal advice could help ?
Of course yes, but consider some practical circumstances.
If I've seen my dreams' house and I find that the price is wothwhile, at the end I might not consider if the person who's selling it is having a profit, nor a lawyer might be able to suggest me the "right" price.[/QUOTE]

This is my point entirely, the [I]right[/I] price is always going to be nearer to 15 - if that is what a buyer is willing to pay - if someone in the middle has taken as much as 5 then that is unfair on the seller but that 5 shouldn't be in the buyer's wallet any more than it should be in the wallet of the slick agent.

[QUOTE=notaio] Let's imagine I want to sell to Adriatica the trullo owned by TrulloMartinafranca down there in Puglia.
Me and Adriatica may sign a contract where I sell Trullo's trullo for 15, I inform Adratica that the trullo is not mine and must procure him the property.
If Adratica accepts the deal he is bound to buy and I'm bound too.
Of course I'll take this risk only if I'm sure that Trullo (Martina) will sell her trullo: i.e. if I've compromesso signed with her.
What happens if I've bought from Trullo at 10 and now I'm selling the asset at 15 ?
Well, how Georges correctly said: this is capitalism folks !!
Trullo has a deal for 10 and for that price she's happy, so if I've been so smart to find another person (Adriatica) who's willing to buy at a different price I'm not legally to blame if I'm able to have a profit and if, of course, Trullo is a mentally capable person.
(p.s.I say legally, not morally).[/QUOTE]

[color=black][font=Verdana]Well your little plan has come unstuck on two accounts.[/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]1) [/font][/color][color=black][font=Verdana]I don’t own my Trullo because we have been trying to buy it since MAY![/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]2) [/font][/color][color=black][font=Verdana]I fear I am not a mentally capable person anymore! [/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana][/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]Good recipe for complete insanity! [img]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif[/img] [/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]Speak only one language, English[/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]Believe books/internet on buying in [/font][/color][color=black][font=Verdana]Italy[/font][/color][color=black][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]Find a nice friendly agent with English speaking go-between who doesn’t understand her a*** from her elbow.[/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]Forget that recommendations would be a good idea[/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]Add a whole heap of Italian laws and rights and don’t miss those sneaky ones![/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]Continue with large dose of Italian bureaucracy[/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]Mix with plenty of Italian piano piano[/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]Leave to ferment whilst tracking down a safe lawyer[/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]Then start all over again because the nice friendly agent hadn’t done a thing they said had been done! [img]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] [/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]So no, I wouldn’t want my agent to get their hands on any extra cash [img]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [/font][/color]
[color=black][/color]

[color=black][font=Verdana]Sorry got a bit carried away there [img]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/redface.gif[/img] [/font][/color]
[color=black][font=Verdana]My humble apologies to all you good agents out there who provide an excellent and honest service.[/font][/color]

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]Some people would refer to it as Capitalism, rather than "fraud", errm, how much do you py for a pint of milk in your local supermarket, without demanding to know how much they buy it in for ??
I do however agree, it is a bad way to make a profit and relies on the buyer and seller being unable to converse, which is why I wish I had engaged an English speaking solicitor as opposed to going "Italian" as my agent recomended, having "MUG" tattoed on my forehead wasn't fun...[/QUOTE]

A definition of a [I]perfect market[/I] might help some understand why the capitalist system is not working at its most efficient in rural Italy when it comes to the buying and selling of rusticos:

[I][U]Perfect Market:[/U]

The following assumptions hold:
(a) there is a large number of buyers;
(b) there is a large number of sellers;
(c) the quantity of goods bought by any individual transactor is so small relative to the total quantity traded that individual trades leave the market unaffected;
(d) the units of goods sold by different sellers are the same - the product is homogeneous;
(e) there is perfect information = all buyers and sellers have complete information on the prices being asked and offered in other parts of the market; and
(f) there is perfect freedom of entry to and exit from the market.[/I]

George's example of milk in the supermarket was interesting - UK farmers complain bitterly that bottled water costs more than milk in British supermarkets and they ask how is it possible. Similarly, in some more remote parts of Italy you might find an old rustico in need of renovation that is being offered at a price less than the combined cost of: quarrying the constitute stones; transporting them to the site; and constructing the four walls. How is it possible without the big bad supermarket in the middle? Suppply and demand I suppose.
So then comes along the wicked agent (Tesco and Asda - don't do tumble down houses yet) to tilt the thing up a little and all the buyers get very cross. But there is a finite number of stone built rusticos in Italy and as the old farmers' adage goes: God ain't making them any more. So I believe all those who have invested in their agent's 4x4 will not lose out in the long run.
This site is good in the way it informs us potential buyers and thus moves the buying and selling of rusticos a little closer to perfect market conditions. The sellers also need to be informed of what the market is willing to pay, which will ultimately be bad for the wicked agent but probably also mean that those of us who haven't bought our dream home yet will have to pay more. One could argue that it is in our best interests to keep them in the dark as the wicked agent does but is that morally acceptable?

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]Some people would refer to it as Capitalism, rather than "fraud", errm, how much do you py for a pint of milk in your local supermarket, without demanding to know how much they buy it in for ??
[/QUOTE]

Yes, but surely most UK buyers assume that they are buying through the estate agent rather than from and that the agent is acting purely as the mediator between seller and buyer. We all accept that shops buy at wholesale prices and sell at retail prices, but we do not expect them to also charge an additional 3%+ commssion to both wholesaler and consumer for the privelege. It may be seen as a form of capitalism if both parties are fully aware and in agreement with the situation as the notaio explained, but from what I have heard the agent I refered to in an earlier post does not inform her UK clients that this is the situation, and clearly relies upon the fact that owner and final buyer are unlikely to ever meet. I suspect both parties are kept completely in the dark.
For potential sellers, they need to ask around to obtain a realistic value for their property, and not just rely upon the word of one agent.
For potential buyers, it would therefore seem to be essential to insist upon meeting the 'true' owners prior to committing yourself to anything and to seeking competent legal advice.

Anne2, I do not disagree that it is a very bad practice, BUT, as you say, "most UK buyers assume....." the BAD agent knows this and abuses their position, I have said before, all Ryan air tickets should carry the warning "Remove the rose coloured glasses on alighting from the aircraft"...

I am normally a very level headed person, yet I was very easily persuaded to carry out the purchase of my house, spending, for me, a substantial sum of money without engaging a solicitor. Now, I have had a few problems, none of them desperately serious, but annoying nevertheless and I paid a hefty sum to another agent to recommend me to the agent I used in the purchase, I am still not sure how this happened. :confused:

[QUOTE=anne2]Yes, but surely most UK buyers assume that they are buying through the estate agent rather than from and that the agent is acting purely as the mediator between seller and buyer. We all accept that shops buy at wholesale prices and sell at retail prices, but we do not expect them to also charge an additional 3%+ commssion to both wholesaler and consumer for the privelege. It may be seen as a form of capitalism if both parties are fully aware and in agreement with the situation as the notaio explained, but from what I have heard the agent I refered to in an earlier post does not inform her UK clients that this is the situation, and clearly relies upon the fact that owner and final buyer are unlikely to ever meet. I suspect both parties are kept completely in the dark.
For potential sellers, they need to ask around to obtain a realistic value for their property, and not just rely upon the word of one agent.
For potential buyers, it would therefore seem to be essential to insist upon meeting the 'true' owners prior to committing yourself to anything and to seeking competent legal advice.[/QUOTE]

[size=3][font=Times New Roman]We tried for months to get the contact details of our seller but the agent wouldn’t let us know. Fortunately we eventually managed to track them down with a large dose of help from someone on here who can speak and read Italian and took pot luck by looking in the phone directory in an area we thought they came from and low and behold he found them! Good one! :) [/font][/size]
[font=Times New Roman][size=3][/size][/font]
[font=Times New Roman][size=3]? Capitalism - if [/size][/font][size=3][font=Times New Roman]all involved are aware then so be it but it’s the deviousness that I don’t like.[/font][/size]
[font=Times New Roman][size=3][/size][/font]
[size=3][font=Times New Roman]George, what is it about us normally rational people that turn into Mr and Mrs Gullible? Is it the sun, the sea, the sand…………very strange :confused: [/font][/size]

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca][size=3
[font=Times New Roman][size=3]? Capitalism - if [/size][/font][size=3][font=Times New Roman]all involved are aware then so be it but it’s the deviousness that I don’t like.[/font][/size]

You're right, that's why I talked of "evident fraud".
A profit is fair if parties "play fair".

[QUOTE=sdoj]In the UK you hear the occasional horror story: typically...old granny dies...dodgy solicitor is executor of the will...sells to his mate (agent's brother-in-law) house straight onto the market with whopping great premium to be divided three ways. The beneficiary of the will (distant nephew of the deceased) who is working on an oil rig somewhere in the ocean is grateful that the nice solicitor took care of it all for him and he charged hardly anything at all!
But in general, it is close to a perfect market in as much as everyone knows what their home is worth and so the opportunities for crooking the seller are far reduced. In rural italy you are dealing with places that are sold very rarely and perhaps where the local economy doesn't provide sufficient for those earning their daily crust there to renovate any of the old rusticos. So how does anyone decide what is the true value? A good honest selling agent would feel your foreign pockets and try to bring as much home for the Rossi's as they could. But in the example that has been used above the price should be closer to 15 than 10, otherwise it is the local who is being short changed and they may well be your neighbours that you will ask to keep the keys and an eye on the place when you are away.[/QUOTE]

hmmh, the market might be close to perfect in the UK but the process certainly isn't. No committment until exchange takes place, chains breaking further down the line and all sales collapsing in the chain. We're due to exchange on the sale of our UK house tomorrow and today I am having to go collect papers from the local council (last minute requests from buyers solicitor) and deliver them personally to the buyers solicitor to try and make it happen. And there is no guarantee that the exchange will happen. Hopefully it will and then maybe I will sleep at night.

Local agent gets a telling off by priest[img]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]...

[QUOTE=Charles Joseph]Local agent gets a telling off by priest[img]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]...[/QUOTE]
:D :D
well that made me laugh, even at the beginning of a very stressful day

[QUOTE=Technically Blonde]hmmh, the market might be close to perfect in the UK but the process certainly isn't. No committment until exchange takes place, chains breaking further down the line and all sales collapsing in the chain. We're due to exchange on the sale of our UK house tomorrow and today I am having to go collect papers from the local council (last minute requests from buyers solicitor) and deliver them personally to the buyers solicitor to try and make it happen. And there is no guarantee that the exchange will happen. Hopefully it will and then maybe I will sleep at night.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I agree. I posted in another thread about buying in the UK where I finished off by saying:

[I]When I last purchased a house in England I had a fantasy of kidnapping the families of the vendor's solicitor and my solicitor and keeping them hidden in a cave until the solicitors had completed the conveyance.[/I]

My point about the "perfect market" in the UK is that everyone knows the value of their home to within a few percentage points, which is obviously not the case in the more remote parts of Italy.
In cities and towns in Italy everything is valued by the square metre and there seems to be less local variance than you find in London for example where parallel streets 20 yards apart can have vastly different prices.
In[I] GIÀ CONOSCIUTO[/I] Cortona or Basolo I imagine the owners know the value of their homes as well as they do in Rock in Cornovaglia. It is just these tumble down rusticos that seem to cause such a lot of excitement in this forum. Perhaps someone with the money of Debeers will buy them ALL up and release them slowly like they do with their diamonds! That will scupper those of us who haven't yet bought.

This thread has been very helpful to me and I have learned alot as I am also trying to sell my home in Italy and the estate agents here just work totally different and have a pian piano attitude. I think I finally found one, not that I am counting on them that much to do anything for me. But when buying a home in Italy it is true you have to have the patience and to put up with all the rules and regs of the Italians. If anyone needs help as I speak perfect Italian and English dont hesitate to ask.

I just read this thread and I would like to add a few personal considerations.

First of all in reference to the last post from Bellaepovera if you have a property to sell don’t waste time trying to find the right agent if you don’t know anyone trustworthy simply give the property to list to several agents/agencies. The first who comes up with a buyer and close the deal gets the commission – simple as that.

In reference to people that buys at 10 and sell at 15 there are two incumbent distinctions to make – that no one not even the notaio highlighted – is a real estate investor that organized the deal or an estate agent?

If an estate agent buys a property for 10 and sells it at 15 and he is the estate agent in this deal - this is against the law!! – due to conflict of interest.
The regulation and laws states that an Italian estate agent acts on behalf of both parties, buyer and seller and negotiate between the parties.
Clearly if the estate agent is the seller is against the law because he cannot be an impartial party.

If a real estate investor buys at 10 and sells at 15, he/she is only doing his job. For a real estate investor the most important matter is how quick he/she can sell a property after he/she bought it. The faster the better.
If I had to do a seminar on real estate trading I would recommend the same approach. What is the quickest property trading?
1.Find a property you like negotiate the price you think it’s best and sign an option (a proposta or a Compromesso).
2. Once you have an option to buy the property you have a contract in your hand.
3. Contracts are entities that can be sold.
4. Find a buyer that is happy to purchase the property for the price you ask (usually what you agreed to paid + 30%).

Now in this case the first seller was happy because he got to sell the property he/she was trying to sell, the new buyer is happy because found the property he/she was looking for and at a price he/she is willing to pay (otherwise why would he/she agree to buy it?). The real estate trader is also happy because he/she sold the property before even realize the conveyance therefore saved money on relevant fees. It’s like trading stock options. Someone bought the option to buy a property – do you want to buy that property? First you have to pay the option than the property.

I read about people saying that is difficult to know what the right market value of a rural property is in Italy when you’re used to precisely know what the market value of a property in UK is.
Honestly I’m not very familiar with the UK but I know better the situation in Ireland. In Ireland the estate agent represent only the seller what usually happens? You visit a property that you like and the agent tells you that the asking price is 100K so you make your offer of 110K. After a few days the agent calls back saying that someone else made an offer of 130K. Well to keep it short I’ve see properties going up 60/70K in one week!! Now that I think it’s a doped market! I prefer a market where the estate agent represents no one but try to mediate between the parties - this is the reason why Italians never use a solicitor to buy a property: an agent usually with his own geometra prepare the documentation first and the notary will make sure everything is in order. I never hear about an agent in Italy refusing to put in an offer to the seller lower than the asking price because he/she probably is happy to earn a bit less but brings home a sale. In Ireland I doubt often if all these offers coming in for the property I’m interest are genuine or the agent is just trying to maximize his and his client profit.

It is very difficult to determine the value of a property even for experts, and it’s not just about square metres there so many variables. An apartment in Corso Buoenos Aires in Milan has values if the same one is just in the street off it it’s much of a different story. The value can be emotional too. Imagine you live in an apartment in Milan and your daughter wants to buy an apartment in Milan too so she can stay around you more often. The apartment next door to you goes on the market for sale. Would this apartment have more value to your daughter that she can be just next to you as her plan was or to a random investor?
Now if I’d be the seller of that apartment and I hear you saying the your daughter wants to buy an apartment in the area to be close to you, if I had in mind to ask 100K I’ll give it a go at 110K – it’s normal. Perhaps your daughter wouldn’t mind paying 10K more just to be around you. Perhaps she will have a look around and buy somewhere else for 100K.

How to value the price of a rustico? Most of the even if they have to be completely rebuild have a great value for the fact that buying them you gain the right to build/rebuild in area that you wouldn’t get any planning permission perhaps in protected areas too. Just walk outside estate agency and have a look at prices of an area if you notice a great different from the asking price of the property you want to buy simply ask your agent an explanation.

I think I’ve been too verbose and it’s almost 6am so time to bed?!

.

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]good post..just what I think too although I'm complety new to this...there are some people who rubbish brits for buying a rustico ...too much work etc etc but as you say if the project is successful then the buyer gets a home in a beautiful situation,perhaps a National Park.What price is that worth?

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

[QUOTE=manopello][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]good post..just what I think too although I'm complety new to this...there are some people who rubbish brits for buying a rustico ...too much work etc etc but as you say if the project is successful then the buyer gets a home in a beautiful situation,perhaps a National Park.What price is that worth?

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

What price is that worth?
That is a personal question that every one of us would answer differently. Once I read that estate agents don’t sell properties but emotions. Perhaps it's true.
I've seen many people interested in buying places I'd never even consider to bother asking the price to the owner. Il mondo e' bello perche' e' vario they say in Italy: the world is good because people don’t think all alike.

I personally feel it's great that there is lots of interested in these traditional buildings because I value them as a great treasure of Italy and it would be a real shame if we had to lose them forever.
I'm excited that people actually buy them and restore them as they were, keeping the same feeling, same structure, architecture and materials. They should extend the tax brakes for restoration!
I come from north of Italy where the same interest in traditional building was boosted by Italians 25 years ago, most of the had the same problems I read people in this forum experience although they didn’t have internet back then.

I read here that lots of people feel buying ripped off because being Brits, let me explain you something.
I take from you name that you're in Abruzzo so let's use Abruzzo as an example.
Two words about Abruzzo: prices of what you call rusticos have gone up in some areas 400% in the last few year. The first 100% increase was due to the euro (example asking price before the Euro, 20.000.000 Lire - after Euro 20.000Euro). The rest is due to increased interest in the area manly from Brits/Irish/Americans and in a small part driven by interest of people from Rome and Naples.
It's the market law - the request grows and the price grows too.
Remember that most of the owners of this rusticos they're not motivated seller, they don’t need to sell therefore they only sell if they have a good reason for i.e. a nice amount of money.

Two years ago I was talking to the CEO of a company in north of Italy that have a network of estate agencies and they do lots of developments and vacation developments (RTA). I was telling him and to other people what was about to happen in Abruzzo due to the start interest in the area of foreigners. He just said: we know very well we did the same here in the north 25 years ago the only difference is that we didn’t call them casali but baite.

I mentioned this because what I want to highlight is that these "many people" are not ripping off the Brits they just act according with market request. 25 years ago in north of Italy happened the same when people stated to be interested in buying traditional buildings: cascine, baite etc. They were not Brits nor Irish nor Americans but rather Italians that spoke the same language of the sellers and the estate agents. However if they wanted to buy a nice and characteristic cascina, baita,casolare, podere, casale, masseria...(call it like you prefer) they had to pay much more money than they would have paid a few years earlier.

I can also tell you that they experienced you same problems and doubts about their restoration and I can tell by personal experience within my family and relatives.
Oh and back then estate agents were all not registered as there estate agent profession was not even regulated by law.

I’ve been recently interview buy a journalist that is writing an article for an English newspaper and she asked me - after going through problems people might experience in buying a property in Italy for 40 minutes - so how to avoid them all?

I gave it a good thought and the only answer I was coming up with was: you need a good sixth sense. In fairness you have no power on events sometimes but that should not stop you from doing something you like.

In forums there are more people that encountered problems talking and sharing their nightmare experience but I’m sure out there, there are so many more people that are just enjoying their nicely restored rustico so much that are not bothered in posting their experience.
To all the people that are reading and that are considering buying a place in Italy and restore it I say it is great experience and challenge, the reward is high.
With a bit of common sense and another bit of sixth sense most of the times things go smooth. Don’t be prejudicial most of the people out there are genuine and trying to do an honest job. Are there bad apples? I’m sure there are but I still get into my garden and pick them because I love apples; 99.9% of the times I get a good one.
My mum gets bad apples too, she takes out the worse part and use the good part to make her homemade jam. No need to tell it’s yummy.

Davide, my friend,

The expression is "one rotten apple spoils the whole barrel"

Its not that getting a good apple is a sort of lottery, but that the one rotten one, put in with the rest, will spoil them all.

In this context it's that where devious/dubious agents are allowed to operate, standards in the property marketing sector can decline generally; and from the buyers perspective, bad experiences can ruin the whole buying/living abroad experience.

I'm sure your mother's apple jam (?) is delicious :) :) :)

Dave or Davide?
Really liked your post but two things, this sixth sense thing is hard when you have little understanding of the system. You may well be right that there are many Brits who have bought without problems but without highlighting problems to others no one will have any idea what to look out for. Equally there are many who do not wish details of bad experiences for fear of looking stupid. Inflated prices are to be expected to a degree but due to excessive greed, achieving a quite sale or ignorance of some agents/middlemen they brush over many of the laws or rights leaving the buyer open to problems. It's finding that bad apple or even part of it before ending up in a mushy mess that's the problem.

So nightmare stories are valuable but this doesn't mean give up (although have felt like it at times) because the reward will be high.