2465 gas crisis in italy and the consequences

Thanks for the notification - I know there has been a huge row here in the West of Ireland about pipelines and proximity to houses, etc.

[QUOTE=adriatica]Gas and regasification
Italy is in a bit of a crisis at the moment …around 85-90 % of energy here is based on gas either to fuel electric power stations or to supply mains gas…with Russia and its problems…the Ukraine nicking gas before it arrives here we have all be told to reduce temps by 1 c and time allowed to heat by an hour….

Now that’s not so bad and the problem has been defined as Italy’s reliance on piped gas… so they want to set up these new plants and yesterday I saw a map of proposed sites 2 in the area of livorno and 2 around venezia and one in calabria and two in puglia…

Now what happens is that it allows italy to buy gas on the open market…. By the ship load… and then its frozen brought to these plants and re gassed… now in the northern areas that’s fine… huge areas of population to supply locally and anyway the area around venice is overun with chemical plants … livorno too … so whats another mass production facility…

But why two in puglia… not a big population… and indeed the planning permissions and approvals are all in place for the first of these new plants at brindisi … and I presume this will mean laying in of new transport pipes to areas outside of puglia… so suggest when looking at property there it might be a good idea to have this shown on a map…because once they lay in a pipeline there are strict rules about doing anything much in terms of building within a certain area of the line… with the panic over the gas shortages and the prices this is not something that will occur in the far off future … the plans are already in place… so make sure you check[/QUOTE]

How big a population do you want. It is second only to Campagnia in the south of Italy and in the top 7 in all of Italy. It also is an area of Italy wth a large growth in tourism. As such there will be a large demand for electricity in the region. The population in Puglia is around 4.5 million. Do you know what the population swells to in the summer. Just think of all the energy required by the air conditioners that are turned on in the summer.

I have a question for you. Why are you so negative on Puglia. It seems that everytime Puglia is mentioned in the news you always have some comment.

[quote=Frank] It also is an area of Italy wth a large growth in tourism...[/quote]

Frank, he's not being negative. Quite the opposite. For the very reason you mention above, and the fact that many people on this forum are looking to buy there, he's just pointing out that people should be mindful of the proposed location of the plants.
Thats how I read it anyway.

[QUOTE=derekL]Frank, he's not being negative. Quite the opposite. For the very reason you mention above, and the fact that many people on this forum are looking to buy there, he's just pointing out that people should be mindful of the proposed location of the plants.
Thats how I read it anyway.[/QUOTE]

"But why two in puglia… not a big population" it's like saying "why not me!!" Sounds negative to me.

Well, I took it as constructive advice also. The question of 2 plants rather than 1, was I suspect, was based on need of the area. Seems as though everyone is ready to jump down your throat John whenever you mention Puglia. Harsh.

frank... fair enough point...

but it goes something like this... first off the brindisi plant is the second one in italy... they do have a very small one already running .... but like most things nobody wants it in their backyard...howvere the planning process for the brindisi plant is done and dusted...after what is happening here now and the russian situation it will be put in place as a matter of urgency....

so why that area... ok 4.5 million is maybe a lot in canadian terms but in essence the north south divide here is also one of popultaion and industrial areas...ie the north is full and requires heaps of energy...the south no... so if you are only building a limited number of plants...you would build them all up north... because there is more gas coming from north africa than from russia there are several pipelines that pass southern areas... going north... already

so these are mega plants ... to be constructed for national use... and puglia will not use all...it will have to be fed into a national grid... i am sure the main cities of puglia are quite big...but not like milan or others of the north... so two one in brindisi and another towards bari...does not make much economic sense... what does happen here is that eu funding comes into place... areas of poor employment or low levels of income get eu funding to develop and to increase employment...so for puglians it maybe is something that is good... jobs... lots of people in that area need work... long term work and regional development... it is also the most secure way of leading people away from a reliance on criminal activity.... .. so its not negative for the region ... and most locals will know whats about to happen and where... this forum is about people that often dont see these things and so i know... your coments may have some justification ... but this really is just another factual post with no thoughts on my part about starting any arguements.. so in my opinion the gas will be piped out of the area... and as gas already piped in can not also contain gas going out... pipelines...

the other benefit i presume to puglians will be industries reliant on large consumption of energy will tend to move close to the supply base... i believe the tankers ..because they are so big do not dock in the old sense but disembark their cargo via pipelines out to sea... so no new docking facilities... but am sure the associated industries and the construction will provide welcome work...

As you state...

The Brindisi plant will be built no matter what. The second you say will possibly be near Bari. I can accept that. I know it does not make economic sense but it does make political sense. Remember it's the politicians who make the final decisions.

As long as they don't build in the Gargano area to me it would not be a problem.

[QUOTE=Frank]As you state...

As long as they don't build in the Gargano area to me it would not be a problem.[/QUOTE]

But this is a touch shortsighted as well isn't it? What if it was to be built in Gargano - how would you feel then and what would you be prepared to do about it? Think then about the places where these plants are being built and the people that live in or near there and how they might be feeling?

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]Why is it that Italy relies so heavily on gas? In Spain where my sister lives there are 100's of wind turbines ,especailly along the coast near Gibraltar,yet I only saw one or 2 in Abruzzo which would be ideal for collecting energy from the wind.

Is there an objection on athestic grounds as there can be in UK or is there no real desire for green energy in Italy?Again like the UK.

As to the pipelines I would think that anyone buying in Puglia would want to know as much as possible about their siting.Are there going to be any new plants in Abruzzo John?

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

You are a mine of useful information John, I think your missive was well written and not meant to be offensive, simply informative. Some will see offence if they look hard enough anywhere.

Totally agree Becky, I was going to ask the same question.
The spanish do seem to be grasping the mettle re renewable energy sources not to mention recycling. These wind turbines are plentiful in some areas, although not always popular also I have seen many of the recycling banks even in small towns. Any theories re the Italian position??? I assume thy have to hit or at least try to achieve EU targets re reducing waste as all EU states have to.........

there are plenty of wind farms in italy. just in my area of campania,i can see
6 or 7 farms in a 20 or so mile radious, but these obviously produce electricity
and the real shortage, for now is heating and gas.although again older
nieghbours to me stock up on wood, and you will find garages filled with the
stuff.
hell my garage is full of it, but alas its my cousin wood, as he looks after our
place... thinking about it the bloody front garages are full of his stuff as well
{cars bikes ect}taking bl..dy liberties... he is a good bloke really....

any way back to gas pipes being laid.
a few years back there was an earth quake some 25 miles NNE of us,it was
when that school collasped. anyway a few months later part of the hillside
collapsed benieth our apartment, no structual damage but abviously work needed to be done to correct it and who was going to pay.
turned out that the gas company had been a little naughty!......

[QUOTE=manopello][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]
As to the pipelines I would think that anyone buying in Puglia would want to know as much as possible about their siting.Are there going to be any new plants in Abruzzo John?

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

Becky, I presume that given the problems with the many and varied forms of alleged and proven corruption over the years, the Italian authorities are at a loss as to how to distribute any funding for renewable energy production, they do seem to be trying to increase the use of solar energy with smallish grants being made available, the gas plants, may not be sited in certain area because of the access needed for the bulk deliveries, those big tanker ships take some turning space up, maybe that is why the Puglian area is preferred.

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]Becky, I presume that given the problems with the many and varied forms of alleged and proven corruption over the years, the Italian authorities are at a loss as to how to distribute any funding for renewable energy production, they do seem to be trying to increase the use of solar energy with smallish grants being made available, the gas plants, may not be sited in certain area because of the access needed for the bulk deliveries, those big tanker ships take some turning space up, maybe that is why the Puglian area is preferred.[/QUOTE]

The two gas plants are going to be projected in Brindisi (by "British Gas" btw) and Taranto essentially because these cities have very good ports with easy access for big tanker ships.
It's not so sure they'll be really build, because there are big protests, above all for the Brindisi project and the local authorities do not wont such big plants.
You can call it "not in my backyard syndrome" and partially it is so, but this is what's happening, even if the present crisis will probablly change people's mind..
About energy.
Remember that Italy has no oil, no coal and very few gas under the soil and 20 years ago people decided, with a referendum, they didn't want nuclear energy, so now Italy is highly depended on the imported energy, essentially gas, because it is less pollutant than oil and all the energy plants are going to be converted from oil to gas.
About renewable energy production.
20% is already renewale, but it is hydroelectric, and quite all the rivers have already been exploited.
Wind farms are a good opportunity: there are many projects and many farms already built, essentially between Puglia and Campania, because that is the best area with the right type of wind.
This kind of energy will surely increase in the next years, but it will be just a drop in the sea, because a big part of Italy is unfit for wind farms, differently from northern countries or even Spain.
Solar power might be a solution, but it is still expensive, even if there are public grants to facilitate "solar roofs".

wind farms... the ones in spain..i think turn about 4000 miles per year... the ones in the uk about 6000.... the ones in italy in the best sites only 2500... italy does not have a consistent amount of the right wind...so to speak...

calabria.... new electricity generating plant ...built to run off sustainable material... several years ago project finished...piles of wood sitting there... no electricity... the burners are ones that condense the emissions and put back low types of poisons into the atmosphere.... all very good ... built with eu grants... but like many things in calabria will never work

notaio is wrong ....all the planning process on the brindisi plant is done...its been aproved in parliament and it is only the last change of regional government which has stopped it... at present....

basically italy imports all its gas from three main producers and is totally dependant on them...the russian crisis has made them realise that they are easily held to ransom over both supply and price.... italians this year will be asked...its been estimated ...due to prive increases to pay another 360-500 e per year for an average family for gas/electric supplies... if they build these plants...actually not if ..when ... they will be able to go out into the open market and buy gas.... which in turn will make the three counties which supply italy with gas have to think again about pricing... there are actually a couple of other suppliers ...holland and the uk ...but its very small amounts...

in regards to abruzzo there are no planned sites... actually as notaio states... because there are no massive harbours most probably...

the only way to go here seems to be either biological fuel or sun... like i say they have plants in the south but no one is allowed to operate them..... the nuclear question is again coming up for scrutiny...but most people feel that it would be too expensive... i actually think that they are only bringing the question up to allow more forceful measures in allowing these new gas plants to be built...ie the nuclear devil or the gas storage / processing facilities...

the government here has asked for the 1 deg c cut in houshold and factory heating... most people are refusing ...because they are old or ill...there is talk about shutting down factories if something doesnt change soon... because if they run out of gas there will be no electricity either...all the plants are gas fired now....

[QUOTE=Sano]But this is a touch shortsighted as well isn't it? What if it was to be built in Gargano - how would you feel then and what would you be prepared to do about it? Think then about the places where these plants are being built and the people that live in or near there and how they might be feeling?[/QUOTE]

They have to build these plants somewhere!! Where are most of the oil refineries in Italy? Why not build them there. Besides, how much polution will these plants cause? It is my imprssion that LP is clean and the process of re-gassing does not cause polution.

If they want to build in Gargano they can put it in Manfredonia.

[QUOTE=manopello][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]Why is it that Italy relies so heavily on gas? In Spain where my sister lives there are 100's of wind turbines ,especailly along the coast near Gibraltar,yet I only saw one or 2 in Abruzzo which would be ideal for collecting energy from the wind.

Is there an objection on athestic grounds as there can be in UK or is there no real desire for green energy in Italy?Again like the UK.

As to the pipelines I would think that anyone buying in Puglia would want to know as much as possible about their siting.Are there going to be any new plants in Abruzzo John?

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]
some people (an increasing number-me included) are hoping that nuclear will be coming back.However in the meantime in a country where two people is a crowd and three a political party..makes it v,difficult for anyone to agree on anything.This has left the country at begining 3° millenium without a credible energy policy.Hydro was more or less exhausted in it's potential by the 20's-30's under the Fascist governments.The post war governments sat back in the cheap petrol scenario which no longer exists,our gas comes from friendly places like Algeria and Russia who are starting to close the taps, nobody agrees as to whether its nice or horrible to live in a Spanish windmill landscape,we exploit less solar energy than Germany and Scandinavia,the electric supplier in italy seems to do everything to dissuade from putting in panels which are v.expensive compared to other Euro countries,grants appear not to be available so the best advice is to get a wood burner and start cutting some wood this problem's going to go on for a very long time (takes 20 years to start up/full production for a nuclear plant) so just take it easy.if someone builds a few coal burners down in Puglia ...it all helps..

I'm sitting here at home at my PC in the UK, and it's pretty cold at the moment. My heating is due to come on in a bit over half an hour and until then I'll keep this fleece on. The point of this is that it set me thinking about all the blocks of flats in Italy where you don't have full control of your own heating and can't economise if that suits your circumstances. I'm sure lots of people here have riscaldamento autonomo, but wonder what people think if they do not?

In several places in Italy - near the spa resorts you can see shiny mettalic pipes about half a metre across snaking all over the beautiful Tuscan hillside. At first glimspe, the sight is sureal to say the least but if you follow the pipes to where they all congregate you will always find an Enel plant which is presumably turning the hot sulphorous gasses into electricity but when you see the solitary electricity cable leaving the plant you have to wonder if the desecration of the landscape was worth it for what can't be enought juice to power a small hilltop town like Volterra (no pun intended). Is this geothermal technology too? I quite agree they could do more in Italy as regards solar energy - in Spain hardly a single new construction is without its stainless steel oil drum with tilted tray arrangement...or it seemed that way when I was last there. In some countries you can sell energy back to the grid at the same or even more than they are charging customers. Can you imagine the scams that could encourage!

We have just bought a house in Colledimezzo above lake Bomba and there is a wind farm on the hill to the right. I think the turbines have their own special beauty and was very impressed to see that the Italians are embracing alternative fuels, especialy as the somewhat oppressive smell of wood smoke indicates that the country as a whole rely heavily on trees for their fuel.

For anyone, having bought in what they believe to be an idylic area to find there is a power station, fuel depot or any industrial unit being built on their doorstep must be a bit of a blow but we should all be pragmatic about these things.

Regardless - we are all buying in a country rich in culture and with much to offer so if there are a few blots on the landscape so be it. There are still plenty of other attractions to take your mind off these and perhaps we can help the Italians learn by the mistakes made in the UK where, for example, nuclear power stations were closed down in the 80s leaving useless concrete blots on the lanscape only for the powers that be to now be rekindling the idea of nuclear fuel as a viable option.

Jackie

I am not sure about the net result of burning wood in Italy in terms of global warming - does anybody? However, I do know that the wood comes from managed forests which are presumably gobbling CO2 during the days that they have gree leaves on.

Just to be clear: I prefer a green approach to the energetic problem, but we have to be realistic, there is no power source able to replace fossil fuels in the next years.
This is not an italian problem, but a world problem
We MUST avoid power waste (using low energy machineries, increasing factories efficency, coulking houses etc.), but it is an illusion that we can swap oil or gas for sun or wind easly and cheaply.
This doesn't mean that we do not have to follow all the possible alternative sources.
Some informations.
[B]Geothermal electricity[/B] is fully exploited in Italy since 1908, when was built the first plant in the world
It covers now about 1.% of the total italian production. It is based in Tuscany (Lardarello area) and covers about 20% of the region use.
Techical reasons make very hard to increase this production in other areas
[B]Wind farms[/B]
Now they cover about 1.2% ot the total production, it is evident thet this kind of production can raise, but it is not realistic to imagine more than 5/7% of the total national production
[B]Hydro[/B]
there's no room for new big plants.
Italy is already full of dams and river plants and are conceivable only small plants.
[B]Solar[/B]
It is true that this source might raise, but it is unlikely that it will reach more than 2/3% of the total production in the very next future
[B]biological fuel [/B]
This is the only one, along with wind, that has concrete possibilities of economic developement.
There are many new small power plants already built or under construction.
They burns wood, residuals of agricultural productions, rubbish etc.
I.e., there's one just built in Monopoli - Puglia - near an olive oil factory, that burns olive residuals, kernels etc, producing 90.000 kWh/year of electric energy.
[B]nuclear[/B]
In the sixties Italy was the 3rd worldwide producer, but the oil lobby stopped new projects.
Now, after the referendum, it very unlikely that people might quickly change their mind, also because other countries - like Germany, Sweden and Belgium - are considering to abandon nuclear.
[B]fossil fuels[/B]
They're the only one remaining.
The gas choice vs. oil has already been made: gas is less pollutant and cheper than oil (ok, not much cheaper, but cheaper).
It is true that we need the have more and different suppliers than Libia, Algeria and Russia and it is true that sea-side plant might be a solution and this is the reason why there are so many projects.
Unfortunatly they face many oppositions too, like the one in Brindisi, that is strongly supportend by the central govenment, but strongly challenged by the local governments: regione (left parties ruling) and comune (right parties ruling).
This oppositions have stopped, 'till now, the project, because the local authorities have the power to stop it

We can go back to the horse and buggy age. No cars, planes or automobiles.

What are the chances of Italians becomming Aumish.

[QUOTE=Frank]We can go back to the horse and buggy age. No cars, planes or automobiles.

What are the chances of Italians becomming Aumish.[/QUOTE]

Sorry it should have read "No Planes, Trains or Automobiles."

BRINDISI - They may be on opposite sides of the political spectrum, but when it comes to plans to build a gas terminal in this Italian port, Brindisi's rightist mayor and the region's openly gay communist president agree.

And the answer is 'no'.

Politicians of all colours in the southern region of Apulia have demanded that Rome revoke a decree authorising the construction of a liquefied natural gas (LNG) terminal in Brindisi -- the latest protests against new industrial projects in Italy.

"We have a lot of industry in Brindisi. Why do we need an LNG terminal on top of it? We have already given more to the country than any other region," Mayor Domenico Mennitti said.

The "not in my back yard", or "nimby", syndrome has already cost Italy millions of euros in abandoned industrial deals which could have boosted its sluggish economy.

Caught in a conundrum, Italians pay the highest electricity bills in Europe but have resisted new power facilities because they could pollute the air or damage the landscape -- an unpardonable sin in a country which treasures beauty above all.

Italy is Europe's third-biggest gas market and is hungry for gas to feed its growing demand, which is expected to hit 95 billion cubic metres in 2010 from the current 80 billion.

Energy analysts say the terminal, with a capacity of 8 billion cubic metres, would be vital for meeting demand and diversifying gas supply.

The 390-million euro ($473.3 million) terminal will import LNG -- gas that is super-cooled into liquid form for shipping -- and is scheduled to start up in the second half of 2008.

The project has already suffered delays and last week Italy's biggest utility Enel pulled out, selling its 50 percent stake to its partner, British oil and gas giant BG Group, which is determined to go ahead with the deal.

But Apulia's regional president, communist Nichi Vendola, has vowed to block construction of a terminal he has dubbed a "monster".

Vendola has gained an unexpected support from Brindisi's mayor Mennitti, one of the pillars of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's centre-right party Forza Italia and the former number two figure in the neo-fascist MSI party.

A DISASTER WAITING TO HAPPEN

The planned LNG terminal is due to be built in Brindisi's port next to an existing petrochemical plant, a coal-fired power station and a military storage facility for fuel.

Those who oppose the project, led by environmentalist groups, say the high risk of fires, explosions or other accidents would be an ecological disaster waiting to happen.

Moreover, they say huge gas tankers going to and from the terminal will practically block other activities in the busy port, making the city even more dependant on heavy industry.

Campaigners against the project also say BG has not obtained all the necessary permits to start building the terminal.

Company officials deny the claims and say the project would be a test case for other foreign investors considering big industrial projects in Italy.

"We have all necessary authorisations which we consider valid and we are ready to take all measures, even legal, to defend our interest and claim damages," said Franco Fassio, president of BG Italia and executive director of Brindisi LNG.

"We are going ahead with our project," he said.

NOT IN MY BACK YARD, PLEASE

"We will not allow it! We will chain ourselves to the port gates if that is needed to stop the construction," said Brindisi Province President Michele Errico.

In Italy, where local administrations have the final say in approving major construction work in their area, this is not just an empty threat.

"In this country you cannot build anything any more," said Davide Tabarelli, director of Italian energy research centre RIE. "The nimby factor is one of the reasons why electricity prices in Italy are the highest in Europe."

In another southern region, Basilicata, a major project to supply electricity from Greece to the Naples area via southern Italy had been blocked for years as people from three villages did not want the power lines to run close to their homes.

Italy's ban on cheap nuclear power after the 1986 Chernobyl accident in the former Soviet Union has helped to boost power prices.

Berlusconi, some politicians and scientists have called for nuclear power to be revived, but analysts and industry experts say Italians would be unlikely to agree.

"There is no option of returning to return to nuclear power. We are not able to build a new LNG terminal, we are not able to find a location for a new waste disposal site, let alone nuclear facilities," Tabarelli said.

People in Brindisi say their main problem is that the city is already choking on industrial fumes, blaming air and soil pollution for one of the highest rates of cancer in Italy.

Environmental campaigners say they would not mind if the terminal was built elsewhere.

"We are not against regasification terminals in general," said Doretto Marinazzo, a Brindisi-based activist.

"We are against choosing the port of Brindisi as a site for the construction because there are no conditions for it here."

But elsewhere the situation does not seem to be any easier, with several other terminals planned for other Italian ports still struggling through the lengthy approval process.

Currently, there is only one LNG terminal in Italy and its 3.5 billion cubic metre capacity is too small for the growing demand.

If the Brindisi terminal, or any of other, finally starts up, it will be the first new terminal in Italy since 1971.

Story by Svetlana Kovalyova

Story Date: 23/6/2005

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Friends just built a house in the south of France and put in double insulation (in roof, floor, walls) - it makes a huge difference. We will do the same, if we build. They also put in solar - France has incentives - for the hot water. They are only using a wood burning stove (Godin) to heat the entire house - over 200 sq meters.
Sarah