2236 real estae agent's fee

[quote=sarahd]Is there a normal fee for real estate agents or not? I thought it was 3% from each side - seller and buyer but a real estate agent in Liguria is tellin me they take 5% from the buyer. Is this right? It's for land so it's not a huge amount but.....seems high compared to what other agents have quoted.
thanks Sarah[/quote]

Here is one thread [URL="http://italymag.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1859&highlight=agent+fees"]http://italymag.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1859&highlight=agent+fees[/URL] about the subject but if you use search at the top you will find many more postings. I've found a better thread [url]http://italymag.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=965[/url] Charles quotes regulations.

The question is do you think this is a reliable agent? Are you being asked to pay the vendor's fee as well? I would have thought 3% each was normal. Are you satisfied with the land and its potential for building? Are there other alternatives with other agents? Feel free to pm with the name of the agent just in case I have heard anything about them. Good luck you seem to have got close to finding your building plot.

Thank you Cassini, I will send you a PM.
Sarah

[QUOTE=sarahd]Is there a normal fee for real estate agents or not? I thought it was 3% from each side - seller and buyer but a real estate agent in Liguria is tellin me they take 5% from the buyer. Is this right? It's for land so it's not a huge amount but.....seems high compared to what other agents have quoted.
thanks Sarah[/QUOTE]
Hello Sarah
3% from each side is normal but it depends on the purchase price: for very low purchase prices (where I am anything under about 100,000 euros is considered low but it might vary where you are) the percentage increases to anything up to 5 or even 8%. For very high value properties (over 1 million and beyond) the percentage can decrease to as low as 1%.

However, there is no set percentage, it is all a matter of negotiation. If your property is within the average price range, then 5% is too high and you need to negotiate with the agent. You can always try negotiating anyway...

Gardahomes,

I see from the bottom of your post that you too are advertising a website that 'Finds' houses in Italy for people, and you too are based in the UK.

The preamble on your webpage states that, quote; 'We do not sell anything'. BUT, it also states, again i quote;

1, You ASSIST in finding property.
2, You ASSIST in pre-purchase formalities.
3, You ASSIST in the purchasing.
4, You ASSIST in post completion formalities.

|If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers & a beak-it's a duck.
In other words what i, along with many others would suggest is that what you are describing on your webpage is exactly what an estate agent does.

If you are not a qualified estate agent, then you can only be a go-between, a middleman. If so could you please tell us what Qualifications/Training do you have & what professional trade body someone like yourself would belong to in order to do this kind of work?

Grazie L'anticipo

Rob

Hi Rob

I am not an estate agent. I don't hold that qualification, nor do I wish to attain it. I am a qualified Italian to English translator and interpreter specializing in Italian property law and Italian property transactions. I am a full member of the Chartered Institute of Linguists (in the UK), am in the process of becoming a Chartered Linguist, and hold a recognized qualification at post-graduate level, and also hold professional indemnity insurance for my work as translator and linguist.

I am based both in the UK and in Italy. We work ONLY WITH registered, qualified Italian estate agents, most of whom do not speak English or, if they do, it is limited and not sufficient to convey the complexities of the situation. When I say 'work with' I mean that we search for properties on behalf of our client through registered Italian estate agents and the transaction goes through them as they would for any Italian buyer. My aim is to use my language skills and qualifications to ensure that UK and US buyers go through the same process that an Italian buyer would. We do not charge the estate agent commission (that goes to the estate agent, as required by Italian law) and we do not take a cut. We charge separately for our services.

When I say we ASSIST in these things, I mean I help UK and US buyers who don't speak Italian or who don't have the material time, to search through hundreds of registered agents books for suitable properties working to a specific brief of a specific client, often visiting the properties personally with the agent, then providing feedback to the potential buyer as to the suitability for them so they don't waste trips out to Italy.

I also provide official translations of deeds and am present at the notary's office to provide interpreting services. I also act as a go-between between the estate agent and buyer via telephone and email where there are language difficulties (and with our clients there always are, otherwise they wouldn't have come to us).

All of these services have nothing to do with the estate agent, who is always involved as they would normally be, and is paid as they normally are by the buyer and seller. That way the buyer is protected by Italian laws governing estate agents (if "protected" is the right word), and also UK laws concerning my competence as professional translator and linguist. The buyer pays us for our services separately, and we make it very clear that we are an added luxury that they can do without if they so wish. If someone does not need us I will give them contact details and websites for local estate agents they can approach directly without us - in fact I often do this in the first instance, so people can check out the local market themselves first. If they come back to us then they know, and I know for sure, that they really need us and appreciate what our services can do for them.

I hope this has reassured you somewhat. I have now removed my signature, which I had forgotten was there until I made the post.
Kind regards

Gardahomes,

I apologise if i came over as being aggressive, perhaps you could tell me which part of the post gave you that impression.

So the only qualification one needs to set up a business acting as a middleman between buyers of houses in Italy & estate agents is the ability to speak Italian. Do you charge per day, or take a commission of the sale?
Why do you not advertise as a translator, you know, 'Gardahomes Translation service'? For those wanting to buy in Italy.

The reason i make this my concern is that seems to be more & more of you setting up As go-betweens' & cashing in on on the great Italian gold rush, yet, legally, as you are acting as an Ádvisor', you have no responibility regarding the purchase.

When everything runs smoothly, & i am sure all of yours do, everythings always OK. When a problem arises, as we have witnessed a few times on this Forum (the one in Tuscany springs to mind), the problem is with the estate agent, NOT the middleman. as he was acting purely as an 'advisor', an introduction agency.

Nobody is going to sue the estate agent in Italy AND an introduction service in the UK., over miss-representation. Your getout is just to say, 'We just introduced you to the estate agent, you didn't have to buy'.

As i have said before, & will repeat again probably, if people still want to buy through middlemen, fine, just be aware, legally you have no comeback, however sincere they may come across as...Caveat Emptor.

Rob

Rob,
It seems that these days every expat who has been through the purchase process thinks they can set up tomorrow as a purchase consultant. This may mean that there are some inexperienced people offering inexpert advice. However, in my experience as property buyer and seller myself, the [I]worst [/I]offenders, in MY experience, are fully qualified, registered Italian estate agents. They'll say anything to a buyer, especially a foreign one, to get them to sign on the dotted line. However, I see things from both sides of the fence, and hear many stories from estate agents who have told me stories of buyers, including UK buyers, who go back to see the seller in private after visiting the property to discuss bypassing the agent, UK buyers doing everything they can to wriggle out of paying the estate agent commission because "that's not the way we do it in England". There are unscrupulous people everywhere: buyers, sellers, agents, consultants. There are also fine professionals who do a great job and fantastic clients who are intelligent, responsible and reasonable. One of the advantages I can give my clients is that I know exactly which agents do a good job, and can steer clear of those who inflate prices, don't tell the truth or withhold information.

At the end of the day, and you seem to have missed this point: I am an ADDED service, I am not replacing the Italian agent. Without me, my clients would just stumble through trying to get their gas meter connected themselves. That may be part of the fun for some, but for many, job and/or family commitments make it impossible.

Gardahomes,

This was in no way any 'Attack'on you personally, i am sure you are a paragon of virtue. In fact, as a business woman earning aliving by what you do, i was quite surprised by your outburst. You were not the only webpage that offers this kind of 'service' i asked for a response from, you were the first to answer. The other has deafened me by their silence.

In fact it was not an attack on anything, your words not mine, it was an exercise aiming to show people who read this forum that there is a loophole here that is ripe for exploitation of the unwary & as some readers have found to their cost that have been exploited.

I apologise again if you thought this was personal, but for me, your response spoke volumes.

Rob

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]For the sake of clarity…stipulated or not, the [B]norm is 2% to 3%[/B] from each side but it is left very much to the discretion of the parties involved in the transaction. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[B][U][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The message is really very simple: Do not pay anything more than 3%.[/FONT][/SIZE][/U][/B]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Garda homes, I have met Rob personally and having discussed these kinds of issues at length, I am able to fully understand his position. I don’t think he is attacking you personally. The concern is that, as you quite rightly state, there are far too may ex pats out there dabbling in real estate, many of whom are neither qualified nor have the right experience and attitudes to the job professionally. Equally, there are some Italian nationals (with or without being iscritti) who are just out to make a fast buck, all at the expense of someone else’s dream. I also agree with you wholeheartedly with what you say about some buyers .[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I would agree that you are providing added services, especially when you are assisting buyers who cannot speak the language. However, without prejudice to you as I cannot judge the quality of your work, unless people in your profession have the requisite knowledge and understanding of the technical and legal aspects involved in purchasing a property in Italy, then they should be wary of what they produce. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Moreover, [COLOR=black]if you believe that “18 years as a geometra and property developer doesn't cut it”, do you really think that an interpreter can explain how to asses whether a crack in a wall is of structural significance or not? Can an interpreter explain to a client the consequences of thermal bridging? I have seen many surveys and building contracts that have been poorly translated.[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Being bi-lingual and having undergone some legal training myself, in addition having a company specialising in real estate and property renovation in the Marche, I too provide a service to buyers who are purchasing in other regions in Italy. But I must confess to be appalled by the general poor quality of translation of official documents, especially binding contracts and deeds of sale etc. I have also lost count of the number of times I have checked offers, preliminary contracts, power of attorney and notarial acts and other important documents that have been incorrectly translated. This is a product of an interpreter who does not have a relevant level of technical understanding. It is not a simple matter of language. I need not tell you how difficult it is in communicating something in an accurate and equivalent translation. Experiencing problems of translation is hardly unique. But legal language is different from any other language and so requires the proper understanding. The failure to convey the full impact of the Italian meaning can lead to possible claims against negligence. Just being a qualified Italian to English translator is, in my opinion, simply not enough.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]You ask the question: “What qualification do I need to convey what the notary is trying to say to the buyer?” I think I have answered it for you.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Whilst I concur that a qualified interpreter can provide an essential service in certain areas, such as those you mention, when it comes to legal or technical maters then I feel that Rob is justified in challenging your assertions. [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

Hi Charles.
What about when buying a plot of land for 10k? Or a garage for 15,000? Do you not have any experience of the percentage changing then? In our area, Tecnocasa recently changed its percentage to 4%, with the exception of high value properties. I sold two of my own properties last year with Tecnocasa and paid them 4%. It is quite normal in this area. When buying a very small office for investment purposes last year, with a low purchase price, we paid 5%.

"do you really think that an interpreter can explain how to asses whether a crack in a wall is of structural significance or not?"

No, that is why we employ a structural engineer.

As for poor translations, don't get me started! I know! Unfortunately, in the UK and Italy, anyone who reckons they can speak a second language can market themselves as a translator. That is why I spent many years studying for my post-grad qualification. That is why I am a member of a Charter, and take out professional indemnity insurance. I have also specialised in a very narrow field for years, and have translated well over a million words in that field, working independently for notaries and lawyers as well as multinationals, with many translations published in architectural journals and other specialist journals and magazines. I'm afraid you are preaching to the converted here. You also show a bit of lack of awareness about what a qualified specialist translator does (and I'm not talking about someone with a languages degree - languages do not a translator make). Of course it's not just about language: it's about total understanding of the subject matter in both languages and ability to express complex subjects, transferring the precise meaning of the source text into the target text, with minimal translation "loss". That's why we use engineers, architects and a legal studio, and are in daily contact with a notary. Isn't that what you do?

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Hi Sarah,[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I tend to stick within the 2 to 3% range. I also represent a chain of professional and successful estate agents in Tuscany who only charge 2% and so can’t speak for Tecnocasa in your area. In some of the conveyancing work that I handle for clients purchasing in other regions, I have found that agents charging 4% + do not even bother to provide the most basic of service. Sometimes they load the commission on the buyer because the vendor doesn’t want to pay them anything.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]As I said in my reply, I am not judging the quality of your work. That would be far too arrogant of me. Neither am I questioning your professionalism, level of skill and qualifications. I agree that it is important to be specialised in a relevant field, such as the settore economico-giuridico for example. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]I recently became quite impatient with staff at a Notary’s office because they sent me a translated version of an Atto Notarile, telling me to use this as a template for one of my clients. They also sent me the corresponding Italian version to give me an idea of what their own particular form was, and when I compared the two, the English version was laughable. I was told that the person who translated the document was a Brit and a professional translator too. I guess that was the point Rob was making earlier.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]As you are undoubtedly aware, some Notary’s tend to use a language that is somewhat archaic, so a “translator” with no knowledge of juridical concepts and principles is going to produce nothing other than meaningless drivel.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I have a fair idea of what a specialist translator does, as my fiancée is a professional in this field of work, with Italian, Russian, English and Spanish as her languages.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Of course I am in daily contact with Architects engineers, builders and lawyers…that is what I do.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]On a final and hopefully light hearted note…a few years ago when I was working in the defence industry, I attended one of those management conferences -you know the sort –where we were being lectured by a high flying consultancy firm about the joys of merging different cultures to create a single company with a single vision. The guy was telling us about the problem of [COLOR=black]transferring precise meanings with minimal translation "loss" as you put it and cited an example of a sign outside a surgery with an English translation that said:[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]“Doctor specialising in women and other diseases”[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Now work that one out![/SIZE][/FONT]

Keeping things light hearted, I had a case just a couple of months ago where one of the buyers (a pretty famous literary agent) was translated into the an "office clerk" and her husband (a US real-estate lawyer) was totally confused by the mumble-jumble wording of the deed of completion thus turning the reading of the deed into a Q&A session with the Notary! (and rightly so!!)

Personally I am of the opinion, that a translator needs to be a native of the language into which a document is translated and have appropriate training/experience in the field of interest for things to make sense.

David
[url]www.tuscanydoc.com[/url]

[quote=Rob] it was an exercise aiming to show people who read this forum that there is a loophole here that is ripe for exploitation of the unwary & as some readers have found to their cost that have been exploited.
Rob[/quote]

[quote]Originally Posted by gardahomes
However, in my experience as property buyer and seller, the [I]worst [/I]offenders, in MY experience, are fully qualified (with their 80 hours of study) registered Italian estate agents. They'll say anything to a buyer, especially a foreign one, to get them to sign on the dotted line. [/quote]

It's a double wammy if the British Middleman (woman) hasn't a clue about the laws and rights of Italian property purchase and the agent doesn't give a damm what the buyer has been told because all he wants is his money.

Sarah if you are as good as you say you are, then you have no worries because anyone with any sense unlike us will go with people who have been highly recomended, so I'm sure you do not need to defend yourself, your reputation will go before you,

I know that it has been a lively couple of pages - however our experience of purchase and non-existent renovation might be a little relevant. I trust that Sarah would be far better than her counterpart here in our story. It wouldn't be difficult, to be frank. But if Charles and Ron have heard of similar stories then I guess that this is where they are coming from.Sorry it is long - but it does span 2 years.
We bought our house through an English person with her own company, also registered in England I believe, who has lived in Le Marche for quite a few years. We went several times to view property with her over a period of 6 months or so. She translated for us when the purchase was proceeding. This was an extremely worrying time as we were never quite sure whether she was legally speaking on our side or the side of the geometra who 'knew' the house and the owner. We are still not sure two and a half years later. We made the purchase in the summer of 2003. The purchase did not go smoothly as the agent had told us that the cheques made out and paid for via the italian bank would not be acceptable. We had precisely followed the instructions given by the agent but our instructions were incorrect. We were unable to complete at the allotted time and had to use our agent to oversee the final sale for us s we could not return to Italy at the correct time. Very unsatisfactory and also uncomfortable for us. We were simply told that "this had never happened to her before and that the rules must have changed." It was all so haphazard that I am amazed that we ever went through with it. Our agent/translator then told us that the property would be ready for use next summer-one year on - and that she would be able to oversee the renovation work using builders who she knew over a long period of time. This was important as we were buying via a downsize and remortgage - ie, it was costing us money each month! Our fairly typical plan had been to let the property for some of the summertimes to help meet costs. We asked to see the work of the builders. We saw two or three houses. The construction seemed to be fairly good although I was concerned that there appeared to be a funds shortage at the end of at least two of the projects - kitchens not planned well - no swimming pools or any extras etc. (I was also asked to help measure a kitchen in a partly renovated property to see if the sink would fit in!) Having been involved in house renovations here in the uk I knew that this could be because the work had come in as rather more expensive than quoted. However, time was of the essence and so we began to organise funds for the next stage - the renovation. When it came to meeting with the geometra regarding the plans - yes the same geometra who was involved in the purchase - the agent could only be involved by telephone from a holiday in Sardinia. I would have liked her translation skills at this point and my Italian is so ropey. The geometra could not speak English. Somehow plans were drawn up and I think, submitted. We parted with money on an ongoing basis. We needed water - 100 metres away, and we needed electricity connected - it was at the house already. We needed the boundary marked out as this still hadn't been done properly. One year later, summer 2004 and none of these things had been accomplished - nor planning permission. When we questioned the agent about this we were told that we should be more patient and get in touch with the italian way - it will get done in the end. The agent was going to charge 6% of the cost of the building work and we were getting extremely concerned. We were haaving to make contact regarding the progress or lack of it. E-mails were frequently not answered. Phone calls not returned. One of the builders was seriously unwell - we felt it only right that we did not pressure too much and so waited. In March 2005 we were told that the builders would be starting within 6 weeks. We were very relieved. We asked for up to date figures for the work. We were told that they were the same as before - one A4 sheet of paper for a total renovation project. I telephoned three times to try to discuss this. Calls not returned. Then we were told that we would need to wait a little longer as the builders had had to do some additional works at their present project. We were mightily concerned about the future project ever being managed swuccessfully through to completion on budget, within some sort of extended time scale and with our psyches intact! We gave it one last shot. We explained that we were returning to Marche in July and needed to see work taking place. It was now approaching two years since we had made the purchase. It was now May 2005. We heard nothing until we contacted the agent on a saturday morning in early June. by telephone She said - "didn't you receive my e-mail?". We said no. She hesitated and then went on to say that as we were becoming impatient she felt that she was not the right person for project managing for us and that we should find someone else. She was not happy working with such pressure! We spent a weekend in shock. We e-mailed to say that we would need to have loose ends tied up and that we would see her in July to collect paperwork from her. We did see her in July. She presented us with "her bill" and told us that the builders could start in September. We said no thank-you to both. She suggested that we use the geometra then, instead. We said that we didn't think that would work because our italian was not good enough. The boundary is still not marked. The planning permission still not in place so that work can begin. The water has been connected because our neighbour needed water for his project. However, she did organise for the electricity to be switched on! We know, because we are receiving bills. She still has our paperwork - she came without it on the agreed date.. I am relieved to say that we have had a company recommended to us as reliable amd we think that we are making some progress at last. Planning permissions next week? Hope so. Rosebee. Oh, one last thing. the agent e-mailed in September - she asked for her bill to be paid - we telephoned back immediately and said that the loose ends hadn't been tied up. She said tht her builders could have started and had the work underway by now!

Rosebee, thank you for sharing your story. We've sent you a PM.

John and Dee

Rosebee, Fortunately for us the alarm bells started ringing way before we got even buying our place. We have about 40 odd emails that went back and forwards between our Agent/translator and her answers to our questions were complete and utter tripe. She didn’t even understand the difference between a private and public deed. Couldn’t answer questions about the property via our emails because ‘she hadn’t seen it and didn’t know it! (We were shown by two other members of the agents team) One of the most stupid answers she gave was damp doesn’t rise but drops out of the sky! When we explained exactly what rising damp actually means, her reply was ‘I have worked with many geometras and this is what they tell me!’ Finally they lied about information gained about the neighbours, pre-emption rights. Said it had all been sorted out when infact we found out they had done nothing! We put our purchase in the hands of a recommended lawyer and gained support/translation from a rather well known honest agent on here who has helped us to sort out the rubbish we had been fed before. Our story is nowhere near as bad as yours but I imagine if we had just kept going it could very well have been.

There are good agents/translators out there but for every good I bet there are at least three bad!

I wish you well for the future and hope all goes well, we complete on the 23rd.

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]In March last year we did a survey for a buyer who was interested in a property here in the Marche.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Our report highlighted some illegal building work and we advised the client accordingly. I also recommended a lawyer. The lawyer and I then drafted the preliminary contract with a whole string of conditional clauses to protect the buyer’s position. No interpreter was necessary here because the lawyer could speak English.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The sale was completed only this week after a long battle. The local council issued the vendor and his architect with proceedings, but they denied that anything was wrong and tried to force the buyer to complete nonetheless, without telling him the truth. The vendor was in also breach of contract and so wasn’t really in a position to dictate or make demands. Despite this and despite the fact that the vendor agreed to pay damages and meet the fine, he tried every trick possible in order avoid his liabilities. [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The agent involved (who appears to be operating abusivamente) charged the client a commission of 5% for doing absolutely nothing.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]There are 2 points to this story: [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]DON’T PAY MORE THAN 3% COMMISSION [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]and if you are going to use an interpreter, make sure that they have the proper legal background/training [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I agree wholeheartedly with David’s opinion.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Here's a true story to give you an idea as to how complicated the "behind the scenes" work can sometimes get. Sorry for the length ... but I hope it's of some use to somebody.

Frank & Joan were searching for a home in Tuscany for over a year without much luck. In the spring of 2005, they came across an interesting rustic farmhouse located in quite a charming area near Lucca. They were very enthusiastic about the potential of renovating the building, installing a pool and perhaps setting up a B&B to generate some additional income.

The property in question was advertised as a two-storey farmhouse building with a floor area of 210m2 and was composed of a 40m2 renovated section, an adjoining derelict barn and civil dwelling. The Vendor also highlighted the potential for extending the building thus making it an even more attractive investment. The property also included 2 hectares (20,000m2) of agricultural land for sale and the asking price was set at 180,000 euro.

After much thought Frank & Joan placed an offer on the property applying a few conditional clauses. Such clauses addressed the suitable outcome of initial searches which included clean title, feasibility of planning permission for conversion to a civil dwelling and a pre-emption rights waiver. Within a couple of days, the Vendor accepted the offer. Now it was simply a case of doing the right due diligence and moving onto the compromesso!

After a site survey and some initial due diligence, a number of interesting facts quickly transpired. It became apparent that the Vendor did not have title to sell the entire property and that the farmhouse was composed of three distinct legal properties each with its own owners … none of whom was the so-called “Vendor”.

The farmhouse was composed of property A, B & C. On further investigation, the “Vendor” was granted power of attorney by his brother who owned the renovated property B. Property A belonged to the “Vendors” ex-partner who had verbally agreed to let him sell and the owners of property C apparently wanted to “tag along” if the commercial conditions were right.

After consulting with Frank & Joan, it was obvious that there were lots of hurdles to get over and the deal would certainly be somewhat “complex” for want of a better word! In any case, they felt that it was worth pursuing once the right precautions were taken. The next step was to drill down a layer and to uncover the details of each property and associated circumstances.

Upon consulting the provincial title & mortgage registry, we discovered that property A had a mortgage of over 60,000 euro entered against it! This mortgage was taken out on the basis that the property was recently registered as a dwelling (i.e. requiring at least a kitchen, living room, bathroom and bedroom). Physically, we were looking at a dilapidated house with not even the slightest sign of a bathrooms or kitchen! The property was registered as a dwelling without authorization from the local authorities. Upon querying the “Vendor’s” Geometra as to how he managed to organise such a loan, he replied “if you need a loan I can get you one easily!” . . . no comment!

Moving onto property B (the renovated one) a search revealed a judicial lien of just over 40,000 euro against it as the brother got into trouble with the tax man over his import-export business. Upon checking with the local authorities, we discovered that no building permits were issued for the renovation in question. Retrospective planning was also out of the question as the property was in a protected area. Property B was destined to be categorized a storeroom and literally couldn’t be touched until somebody paid the fines not to mention the risk of legal proceedings!

Property C (the “tag alongs”) was owned by an elderly man who had arranged power of attorney from his co-owner sister living in Brazil. At last, somebody with clean title! Unfortunately, it turned out that he had passed away 12 months previous and the inheritance procedure was not carried out within the statutory timeframe! This meant further fines for the heir and lots of waiting.

Again it was back to the drawing board with Frank & Joan to decide whether to abandon ship or move on to the next step. After much thought, they decided to see what was feasible from a technical/planning perspective before proceeding.

One of the first issues encountered was that the upper floor of all three properties did not have the minimum net height requirements of 2.7m as prescribed by the local regulations. This was a necessary requisite for converting from agricultural use to dwelling use. Fortunately, planning regulations allowed an increase in volume for such farmhouses by raising the eaves/roof level to overcome this problem.

The second task was to understand if it were really possible to extend. Local planning regulations allowed the net floor area to be extended up to 130m2 once one of the following two conditions were met, namely the property had to have an initial volume greater than 200m3 for an agricultural building or an initial floor area greater than 40m2 for a civil dwelling. The only property with such characteristics was Property A having a volume of 205m3. This extra 5m3 triggered the possibility for an extension. Finally some good news!!

The only concern at this point, was the presence of a gas pipeline passing near to property A. Given the developments to date, we decided to leave no stone unturned. On contacting the pipeline company (Snam) armed with land registry details, they faxed us a servitude contract prohibiting any sort of construction for a minimum distance of 20 meters on both sides of the pipeline! Property A was located at 18m . . . another dead end!!

The final nail in the coffin was the 20,000m2 of land. On verification, the total area amounted to just over 10,000m2 of which a significant part was dislocated in several isolated fields far away from the property!

Unfortunately this was all devastating news for Frank & Joan yet somehow a blessing in disguise. Now that they were thoroughly informed on the property’s defects and potential, they were able to place a new offer that reflected its real value. The “Vendor” did not accept this new offer and is silently waiting for an easier victim.

Conclusion

Unfortunately such complications combined with a certain amount of cunningness is not all that unusual (especially the former). There are many old properties out there which have accumulated frightful complications due to circumstances that have developed over the years. Having said that, if the buyer is determined and patient such issues can be overcome and resolved by correctly managing the whole buying process. In this particular case, the unusual combination of such issues significantly deteriorated the value of the property and making it commercially unattractive. Frank & Joan have since moved to Italy with their children and have rented accommodation to get more acquainted with the area beofre embarking on a new search.

David
[url]www.tuscanydoc.com[/url]

Yes! We need more stories of what went wrong, not to scare but to make people aware of all the situations they may have to ecounter.

Having read the exchanges that have been taking place with regard to agency fees and the use of ‘middle-men’ I confess I am left rather disheartened by the seeming inability of many people to appreciate the difference between someone who simply finds ‘purchasers’ for Italian agents or private vendors or vice versa and people who assist and advise potential purchasers through the maze of the purchase process (although both activities are perfectly legitimate). Also, the belittling attitude of some ‘professional’ people for those who offer these services. The important thing is that Service agencies do not pretend to be what they are not, and that they are straightforward in explaining their fees and services. It is true that there are ‘cowboys’ out there who may have very little experience or knowledge of Italian or the Italian system, but it is equally true that there are dishonest estate agents, surveyors, geometra’s and YES purchasers, who are all too ready to use and abuse the system, and it is not to be said that just because a person has a string of qualifications this necessarily means that they are experienced in the Italian system OR honest. The role of ‘procacciatore d’affari’ or business facilitator is fully recognised in Italy and there is no reason why someone who invests time and money in putting a potential purchaser and a vendor in touch with each other, whether through an estate agent or privately should not charge a fee. It is for the purchaser to be clear in advance what that fee is and decide for himself if he wishes to use the intermediaries services. It is also perfectly legitimate to run an agency assisting purchasers with a range of services from interpreting/translating to practical assistance in obtaining tax codes, opening bank accounts, organising surveys, purchasing furniture/building materials, finding skilled workmen, setting up utility contracts etc.etc the list is endless. These services are additional and complementary to those offered by estate agents and are things that are extremely difficult for a non-Italian speaking person, who is new to an area, to do on their own. It is misguided to undervalue this type of assistance or suggest that it is wrong to charge for such service. It may not be rocket science, but in a foreign country and without the necessary linguistic skills, it might as well be.

So what can a hopeful ‘purchaser’ do to protect themselves if they do not want to contact Italian agents directly and would like a helping hand. The answer is to read agency websites carefully and also to ask some relevant questions before viewing properties with an agency, such as 1) is it an estate agency ie. Italian registered or a Service agency 2) what are the agency’s fees 3) what services are offered for that fee 3) are the fees additional to the Italian estate agency fee and if so, what are the Italian agent’s fees 4) how long have they been living/operating in Italy (if it is only a couple of years they are unlikely to have sufficient experience, knowledge or language skills to be of much help), and importantly 5) can they give the name of some former clients to contact for their experiences. If they cannot answer all these questions satisfactorily, go elsewhere. Having run my own agency via a website for many years I am only too aware how few people actually read the information on the site, or the initial contact letter explaining the way the agency operates, or even ask any really pertinent questions.

It is unfair to suggest that Service agencies are at best an unnecessary waste of money and at worst, a bunch of crooks. The vast majority are honest, hard-working and offer excellent value for money. It is also not fair to suggest that they should be responsible for the advice and service given by professionals, when liasing with those people for the client, unless it is an error of interpretation (you shouldn't blame the waiter if the food is bad). The Service agencies fulfil a very important role and it is simply necessary for prospective purchasers to exercise some common sense and caution in selecting someone to help them and being clear and realistic about what level of service they can expect. After all, if these agencies did not exist, many people would never buy a house in Italy! Phil

Yes Phil, purchasers have not just some responsibility, but ultimately it is their time and money that is being desired, so they burden all the responsibilty of their actions.

We've been researching for 2 years (not just every once in a while, but regularly). If you see a house, (the same one) on 4 different agents websites
for 4 different prices (say 400k,420k,450k and 500k) ,you realize the possibility of getting taken to the cleaners by the luck of the draw if you're not careful.

Let's say we're unlucky enough to find the house and agent with the house at 500k (not knowing about the other agents and lower prices), and on top of that we contact a liason company to help us (still have to pay for them too). On top of this is the 3% commission (or whatever). This would cost us the most, not going to be the best way to go. Yes, it's possible that a liason company can find these things out for the buyer (other companies selling the same house for less) and can give the buyer a savings in another area of consideration, but the peace of mind by our researching things out ourselves, keeps us from worrying that our hired liason company is honest.

[COLOR=black]Phil, [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]I don't think anyone is complaining about those that provide a good and honest service, who have tha knowlege and understanding to guide their clients. You say don't blame the waiter but if the waiter brings out a meal that is clearly not up to standard then he should go back to the chef! Yes, there will be exceptions but the good middleman would know and trust the professionals they work with. It just all goes towards reducing the risk of what can and does go very wrong. As you say there are dishonest estate agents, surveyors, geometra’s etc so even more vital that the middleman can help avoid these.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]We did go through your lists of how to protect ourselves but only to find out that the majority of the infomation was complete lies or their sheer ignorance of the process. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]The problem is 'the crooks' are full of charm and have a very helpful attitude until you have made the comitment and then the 'fun' really starts, unravelling fact from fiction.
I also feel that many just go with the flow, not neccasserily aware of the various pitfalls. Fortunatly problems after purchase don't arise so therefore they believe that everything had been covered but as has been described on here it's later when the real headaches begin. Which is why the person who is supporting you through this maze whether agent or middleman really does know what they are doing and the consequences for the future.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]We were told that we would be charged 6%, when questioned as to why so high, the answer was because we provide a very high standard, including extensive searches, a complete package before and after purchase! Yeah, right! :mad: [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]As I said to Sarah if you have a good reputation that goes before you I don't think you have anything to worry about.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]These stories are to point out the bad guys not the good. :) [/COLOR]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]

Wow! I LOVE this forum. It helps tremendously.
I'm planning on buying agricultural land with the "right" (will be verified) to built a house and maggazino. Anyone want to suggest what should definitely be in the written offer besides the fact that it is really buildable, owned by the seller and without liens or pre-emptive problems?
I am making a list of all the things that seem important but I don't want to put off the seller too much either!
Greatly appreciated in advance.
The idea is both exciting and scary!
thanks
sarah

I wish that I had known of this forum when we were in the buying stage as I know that we would have approached this in a different way than we actually did. We made mistakes and we were not sufficiently aware of the pitfalls. I don't think there is any chance that we would have changed our minds about what we were doing if we had read of the difficulties and mistakes encountered by others. We would just have been more aware and we would have known of the right questions to ask.
Yes, we read the books on buying property in italy but the real experience is a very different beast. And I think that beast is probably the correct word.
The area is beautiful. The lifestyle more relaxed and the food great. Our family love it too. That's why we would still have gone ahead. rosebee.

thank you Aliena for your advice. I have read most of the posts and that is where I have formulated most of my questions and conditions. I agree that reading the books about buying property isn't enough.
Unfortunately the seller of the land I like the most scares me because I know he's already lied to the real estate agent,who's supposedly a friend.
Reading the problems of others is a good warning to be careful - I hope!
Thanks to all of you on the forum, I know I have much more information than I had before I found you, and hopefully, that will help me avoid many of the problems, although I suspect not all!
Many thanks to all of you.
Sarah

Exactly Rosebee,
This is what I’m trying to say. We read books searched the internet etc but without knowledge of the real 'beast' that we found on here we wouldn’t have asked further questions that uncovered the fact the ‘Agent’ didn’t know her facts and began tying her self up in knots bluffing her way out. These not so conscious teams (agent/middleman) rely on the fact that most buying through them don’t understand so therefore will not ask adequate questions. Although we believed what they said at the time of the offer, as time progressed we realised they couldn’t answer more in-depth questions. Desperatly worried that we were going to be stitched up completly, a few posts on here of our fears sent Charles to the rescue. Put us in touch with Italian lawyer and has guided us since.

I wouldn't be so negative about buying in Italy!

If a woman knew all the potential medical risks in having a baby, there wouldn't be many babies around!! Same when buying. Most people do so because they love Italy. Risk go hand-in-hand with buying (anywhere) and they simply have to be managed with good judgement.

David
[url]www.tuscanydoc.com[/url]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Phil[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Although I agree with most of what you say, I have the following points to make: [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The “[COLOR=black]belittling attitude” as you put it stems from the undeniable fact that there are too many unprofessional people (whether they are qualified or not) operating out there. Unfortunately, the growing appetite for properties is giving rise to more and more cowboys. [/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Without prejudice to those who do provide an honest and exceptional standard of service, it is not a misguided belief to be cautious. I agree with greatscott that buyers too have a responsibility. If caveat emptor remains the cornerstone of conveyancing in England, then the same should apply when buying a property overseas. [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Commercial activities of any sort are classified as Mediazione in Italy. The role of mediatore is further split into four groups. [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Briefly, these are:[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Wingdings]n [/FONT][COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Agenti immobiliari [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
[FONT=Wingdings]n [/FONT][COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Agenti merceologici [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
[FONT=Wingdings]n [/FONT][COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Agenti con mandato a titolo onerso [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
[FONT=Wingdings]n [/FONT][COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Agenti di servizi vari [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Anyone putting a potential purchaser and a vendor in touch with each other is classified as a mediatore and should be iscritto in the relevant role. Either an individual or a company can be iscritto. [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The role of ‘procacciatore d’affari’ or business facilitator is fully recognised in Italy but the term applies to those persons who have received specific instructions by a company to promote its products/services without being directly employed by that company.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The role of proccacciatore is totally separate from the category of agenti di affari in mediazione. Moreover, the proccacciatore has an indefinite and temporary role and does not have any rights of exclusivity. [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=black]The proccacciatore is included in the category [/COLOR]"intermediari del commercio" and needs to be iscritto at the:[/FONT][/SIZE]

[FONT=Wingdings]n [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Registro di imprese [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Wingdings]n [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]INPS commercial management[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Anyone can act as a property consultant to help you find a house and charge a consultancy fee. I don’t think anyone objects to people earning a living. As outlined above, professionals only belittle those who act in bad faith to make a living at some one else’s expense.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]I disagree with your point that if an agent has been operating for only a couple of years they are unlikely to have sufficient experience, knowledge or language skills to be of much help. Length of service is no absolute guarantee. What counts, among other things, is:[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[FONT=Wingdings]n [/FONT][COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Professional integrity[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
[FONT=Wingdings]n [/FONT][COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Technical knowledge and competence[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
[FONT=Wingdings]n [/FONT][COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Right attitude to service[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]There is no evidence to suggest that people would never buy a house in Italy if it weren’t for these service agencies. That is what a professional real estate agent and lawyer is there for. In any case, most do an excellent job at providing the services you outline.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]No one is suggesting that service agencies are an unnecessary waste of money and that they are at worst, a bunch of crooks. Yes, many are indeed honest, hard-working and offer excellent value for money. Yes, many fulfil an important role, but equally there are those who are just out there to extract money from an unsuspecting Mr & Mrs House hunter.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I also disagree that it is unfair to suggest that service agencies should be responsible for the advice and service given by someone else. As a proccacciatore or business/trade facilitator, you are still promoting the service, even if another company is principally offering it. To me, this means you should be fully knowledgeable of the product/service being offered. It is all too easy to pass the buck elsewhere. If I am paying you for a service I expect it to be seamless and would hold you responsible if something went wrong.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]As far as your analogy is concerned, the waiter is still part of the restaurant delivering the culinary experience and, therefore, an integral part of the service. If the food is bad, then the whole experience suffers. In my opinion, the waiter is just as responsible as the chef and the restaurant. In any case, an excellent waiter wouldn’t be serving bad food in the first place![/SIZE][/FONT]

[/FONT][/COLOR]

It would be nice to avoid a grimm restaurant fairytale:

The "Chef" wants 400. The very, very, very helpful "waiter" serves 500. The "patron" (who doesn't know the "Chef" wants 400 ,and that the "chef" would be happy to get 400 directly from the "patron") gives the very, very, very, helpful "waiter" 500.

When the "patron" leaves, the "waiter" then gives the "chef" the 400, and the very, very, very, helpful "waiter" pockets 100 for themselves.

Oh.... and the "waiter" and the "chef" both get a tip from the "patron" too!!!!

Had to read this about five times to make sense of it! :D But get the gist of it.

[QUOTE=David]I wouldn't be so negative about buying in Italy!

If a woman knew all the potential medical risks in having a baby, there wouldn't be many babies around!! Same when buying. Most people do so because they love Italy. Risk go hand-in-hand with buying (anywhere) and they simply have to be managed with good judgement.

David
[url]www.tuscanydoc.com[/url][/QUOTE]

David,

That is why women go to places with SPECIALIST facilities, with QUALIFIED personnel where they can be assured that they will get what they need - a PROFESSIONAL service.
It's called a HOSPITAL.
I am sure that a pregnant woman would not go to her Aunties for help, as her Aunty is a so called expert because she has been at the delivery of umpteen babies, now would she. Sorry, you picked a bad analogy there.

(Sucking eggs time)
When i buy a pint of milk, i presume the white stuff in the bottle is milk.
When i fill my car up with petrol, i presume the fluid going into my car is petrol.
When i go to a webpage that has a headline banner that says, So & soVillas, So & soHomes, So & soRetreats, i (naively) presume that they are estate agents, or qualified people able to deal with house sales. The webpages look/read just like an estate agent's do. If i need an interpreter, i dial the word 'Interpreter' into Google & get one.
If they are interpreters, go-betweens, mediators, then, come out and be honest, advertise as such, not, i my opinion, maximise the house selling side in words & pictures on their webpage, but stick their actual role in their small print;......or would business take a nose dive, i wonder?

Charles, smashing post, thanks.

IMHO
Rob

Sorry Rob ... I DO know about hospitals etc .. just quoting my gynaecologist brother who always says that! Hope you get the jist though!

David
[url]www.tuscanydoc.com[/url]

[QUOTE=Rob] If i need an interpreter, i dial the word 'Interpreter' into Google & get one.
If they are interpreters, go-betweens, mediators, then, come out and be honest, advertise as such, not, i my opinion, maximise the house selling side in words & pictures on their webpage, but stick their actual role in their small print;......or would business take a nose dive, i wonder?

Rob[/QUOTE]
Hi Rob, I presume the "interpreter" means me, so I'll put your mind at rest - would business take a dive (re. above quote)? No - when I worked solely as translator I earned around 2 1/2 times what I do now as translator/property finder/property manager/general dogsbody. I have a lot more fun now, though, and more job satisfaction. Together my husband and I have created something we are really proud of and nothing is better than receiving letters of thanks from our clients and remaining friends with them years later.

I don't put my actual role in small print, I repeat it several times on the website and when people contact me I go through it again to make sure they got it (most people don't bother to read the site properly). I also tell them they don't need me and that I'm an added service, and that if they just want an estate agent I tell them where they can find a couple of good ones, even giving telephone numbers and contact names of people I know will treat them well - I make no referral fee). I only put some examples of property on my webpage because people kept hassling me to do so! I eventually gave in, not least so people could get an idea of what you can get for your money (the real prices, too!).

If you weren't referring to me and were being general, just know that we are not all crooks! I've had horrendous experiences with lawyers, both in Italy and the UK, and the result of that is that I try to avoid them in my own personal dealings if at all possible. It doesn't mean they are all blood-sucking vultures, now, does it??

[QUOTE=Rob] David, That is why women go to places with SPECIALIST facilities, with QUALIFIED personnel where they can be assured that they will get what they need - a PROFESSIONAL service.
It's called a HOSPITAL.
I am sure that a pregnant woman would not go to her Aunties for help, as her Aunty is a so called expert because she has been at the delivery of umpteen babies, now would she. Sorry, you picked a bad analogy there.
Rob[/QUOTE]

Hey Rob, you have obviously never heard of "radical midwives". A movement borne out of frustration and disappointment with the increasing medicalisation and intervention in maternity care!

Sometimes a fresh approach to a problem works and I can quite see why GardaHomes could provide a valuable service. On the one hand you have Italian estate agents and Notaios who quite often can't speak very good English and the other you have aspirant British buyers who don't speak very good Italian. While we hope that the aspirants aren't suspicious of "Johny Foreigner" per se it is quite likely that they are used to a different type of service and a different type of conveyance in England and could quite reasonably become suspicious when told by the agent that they don't need a lawyer. I can imagine that a friendly, familiar voice of assurance in the shape of GardaHomes could be the fresh approach that allows many people to give healthy birth to their brainchild.

Stodge,

'Radical Midwives'; Are they qualified midwives & where do they work out of, Hospitals, clinics', Home?

'Fresh Approach'; What do you mean by this, honesty?

Again, let me reiterate my argument. I have nothing personal against Sarah of Gardahomes. I am sure her and many people like her are probably providing a first class service to her/their customers. My contention is that the Italian house buying business allows go-betweens/middlemen that are NOT QUALIFIED, however sincere & honest they are. They can take a buyer right up to sale, BUT the actual sale is handled by a QUALIFIED estate agent. What's the point of agents having to qualify just for 'taking the order'. Having no qualification & therefore no professional regulatory body, allows the dishonest free entry. The whole buying system is a loose collection of could be's, maybe's, there is no coherent basic structure. THAT IS MY CONTENTION

For plumbers in the UK to install gas , they must qualify & become Corgi registered - yet anyone can come to your house & install a complete central heating system MINUS the gas connection. Do you really think the Corgi registered plumber would come out JUST to connect the gas?

The only argument being put up against me is that 'they are nice people really'. Is this the only reasoned argument being put up?

[quote=Rob]Stodge,

'Radical Midwives'; Are they qualified midwives & where do they work out of, Hospitals, clinics', Home?

'Fresh Approach'; What do you mean by this, honesty?

Again, let me reiterate my argument. I have nothing personal against Sarah of Gardahomes. I am sure her and many people like her are probably providing a first class service to her/their customers. My contention is that the Italian house buying business allows go-betweens/middlemen that are NOT QUALIFIED, however sincere & honest they are. They can take a buyer right up to sale, BUT the actual sale is handled by a QUALIFIED estate agent. What's the point of agents having to qualify just for 'taking the order'. Having no qualification & therefore no professional regulatory body, allows the dishonest free entry. The whole buying system is a loose collection of could be's, maybe's, there is no coherent basic structure. THAT IS MY CONTENTION

For plumbers in the UK to install gas , they must qualify & become Corgi registered - yet anyone can come to your house & install a complete central heating system MINUS the gas connection. Do you really think the Corgi registered plumber would come out JUST to connect the gas?

The only argument being put up against me is that 'they are nice people really'. Is this the only reasoned argument being put up?[/quote]

[COLOR=black]Corgi registered plumber will come out just to connect the gas but you have to pay![/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]I don't think there is anyone that doesn’t understand your point but you could say that it's down to the buyer to ensure that they are fully aware of who they are dealing with. To be honest all this hype about a qualified agent means very little really, they do not always stick to the rules either and taking them to court takes years! [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]There is still the problem if you don't speak the language. How do you get through the process and work with an agent without a link person who will help with everything not just buying the place. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]I don't know the answers, we used a qualified agent who had an English "link" person but it was a complete disaster! She gave us no end of rubbish information; hence, we got a lawyer onto it. When the lawyer questioned that actual agent, his reply was. ‘I am not responsible for anything she has said and if the English are too stupid to not know what they are doing it is not my problem!'[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]As far as I can work out there is no way of knowing who to trust or who not to trust whether they are qualified or not. Good agents, bad agents, good notaries, bad notaries, good lawyers, bad lawyers and finally good middlemen and bad. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Which brings us back to research and more research, we knew just about enough to know we were being fed a load of b******t so did something about it. Recommendation is probably the nearest you’ll get to honest and safe purchase but even then that can go pear shaped. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Web sites should be looked at as a guide and not gospel like any advert. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Yes, tighter systems to protect all concerned would be great but can’t see that happening or how it would work.[/COLOR]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]

Rob, I see where you're coming from. Let's focus on the solution, not the problem.

Assuming that "qualification" actually qualifies someone and that such qualification protects the buyer. Sorry, I can't assume that, it's just not true. To do so would assume that all qualified estate agents have honest business practices and care about their clients and know what they are talking about; lawyers have their clients' interest in mind, not their own; hospitals and doctors provide a first-class service (pm me if anyone wants details of giving birth in an Italian hospital with super-qualified doctors and midwives - I don't want to put anyone off their Sunday lunch but it was bordering on medieval at best, negligent at worst) and that qualified plumbers do a great job. And if they don't, it's really easy to sue them and get the great British comeback. Just try suing an Italian lawyer, see where that gets you. Or even try suing an Italian estate agent - the Italian Civil Code protects the mediatore, don't let anyone tell you different.

Anyway, assuming that qualification is the answer, the solution is clearly to somehow insist on, or set up, a satisfactory regulatory body governing the practices of middlemen, go-betweens, property finders, translators, anyone who has a business in the Italian/UK real estate industry who is not a clear-cut estate agent or lawyer. The fact is, there IS a real need for such middlemen and "bridging" services, as my clients keep telling me. Charles reckons there is no need for such people: all you need is an estate agent and lawyer. Maybe that's the case in Le Marche where Brits are lucky enough to have someone like Charles who is bilingual, professional, and happy to help. Try telling that to one of my clients who tried for a year, unsuccessfully, to buy property in my area going through the Italian estate agents by themselves. Apart from the language difficulties, there was a noticeable reluctance on the part of the agent to help them, respond to emails, send information or even take them on appointments. This is not uncommon in my area, I've heard the complaint many times from UK buyers. In short, after an unsuccessful year they came to me. Within three months they were in their property, fully furnished and up and running. Every one of my clients, including an Italian born, UK qualified lawyer, has said they couldn't have done it without us.

So, having established that in SOME areas there MAY be a need for bridging services such as the one I and others like me offer, we have to acknowledge Rob's contention: that it IS still possible for someone to set up shop tomorrow with no experience, knowledge of the sector or basically any idea of what they area doing. Rob seems to think that either by boycotting all property consultants/middlemen or only using estate agents where [I]all [/I]members of the company are "qualified" (if you can find one), the problem is solved but that is not the case.

Have you researched at all what you have to do to become a "qualified" estate agent? I know qualified Italian agents who don't know the difference between a scrittura privata and an atto pubblico, or know anything about the new laws regarding purchases from privati re. registration taxes. I've come across a notaio, recently, who insisted that the United Kingdom was NOT part of the EU and that we Brits are extracomunitari. I've seen a geometra sent by the Bank to do a perizia for a mortgage do the full report without even entering the property.

My aim was and is to enable people from my country to benefit from this experience and avoid the rubbish agents, lawyers, notaries, and also benefit from my husband's position in the area, the fact that he was born and bred here, speaks the dialect and knows everyone in the planning department of the council...personally I think with our combined experience and qualifications we offer a pretty good "qualification". Did you know that the big Italian estate agency franchises, when advertising for agents, only take on people of 24 years old or younger? Mediatore qualification not required? Experience counts for nothing, youth and a pretty face does.

Having said that, is it possible that a dishonest middleman pops up and feeds the UK buyer with nonsense and possibly defrauds them? YES! Most UK buyers DON'T EVEN CHECK THE NOTARY IS A REAL NOTARY!

Personally, I think the problem is solved by UK buyers using their heads, doing lots of research, getting recommendations and going with someone who has a good reputation for providing good work. That goes for middlemen, property finders, estate agents, lawyers, whoever [I]you [/I]choose to use as an informed, responsible buyer.

Also, a little bit of flexible thinking to adapt to a new culture rather than trying to stuff a square peg (Italy) into a round hole (UK practices) works wonders.

That said, do I condone the terrible practices that have been cited on this fourm? Absolutely not, and if there is any justice in this world, those with good business practices will live a long and happy life, those without will die of a bad reputation. But, as always, buyer beware.

Getting back to the solution: a UK based and Italian based regulatory body providing qualifications and licencing for Italian/UK middlemen/consultants/property finders/links. Where do I sign up?

Sarah, hi, interesting post.

You may well be right. Maybe i am being too negative & should canvass a larger cross section of consultancies like yours. Maybe the route to a more professional standard of service could well be through people like yourself deciding that enough is enough & we see change in the system from within. If you see that, then i wish you the best of luck, go for it.

What you & others have brought to light in these threads, is that there is NOWHERE within the system out there buyers can claim sanctuary, or a base line to start from. Like politicians, if we start on the premise that we do not believe a word that they say, then how do we know they are telling the truth. If, even qualifications & a professional trade association behind is STILL no guarantee, then what's the point in the first place. We all basically agree that the industry in Italy is a mess AND needs overhauling. Apart from Italy having a reputation of dodgy dealing in most things, hence the Guarda di Finanza, why should the estate agency business be any different?

Tickle time; How can you tell an Italian estate agent is lying........his/her lips are moving!!!

[QUOTE]YES! Most UK buyers DON'T EVEN CHECK THE NOTARY IS A REAL NOTARY! [/QUOTE]

When we meet one on Wednesday what proof should we ask for?

Dave & Dawn

Can't sleep :(

[QUOTE=YNot]When we meet one on Wednesday what proof should we ask for?

Dave & Dawn

Can't sleep :([/QUOTE]
:D
Check here: [url]http://www.notariato.it/cnn/search/search.aspx[/url]
You should be able to find the name on that site (excellent source of info, by the way)

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]This is a very interesting thread.

I can honestly say that its been a steep learning curve for us but now we do own a house in Abruzzo.However if I had known about the problems in finding a trustworty agent, notary, builder, geometra etc I think we would never have taken the step...which only time will tell if is the worse mistake of my life!!

So far I we have managed to pick a way across the minefield of Italian real estate..and we have not even begun what will be the most difficult stage..the repair rennovation.

What I do find extremley trying is the Italian attitute to replying to phone calls emails etc...and them always seeimg to be having computer/phone problems.A level of efficiency that we are used to in the UK doesnt seem to exsist in Italy as a rule( there are many exceptions I admit)

Maybe its just where the weather is so freezing..I'm suffering from SAD but at the moment I'm feeling like warning others to stay well clear of the Italian property market!

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

Trulli,

Not down here in the SE of England they won't, They want the whole job or nothing. Why, last i heard, to maintain their yearly registration it costs somewhere in the region of 1500pounds a year for re-inspection/assessment by Corgi. Do you think they would claw that yearly expense back just connecting A pipe to A gas supply only. And especially for a non registered plumber.

if i can cut across you here, (and it looks like someone should!;) ), I was very interested in your Institute of Linguists thing - is there something similar in Italy - I am a qualified English lawyer, but would quite like to put it to some use here in the translation field?
On the "estate agent" thing, surely everyone in Italy dabbles in something? If not, as far as I can see it is pretty much impossible to make a living unless you are connected to the Government! (or a footballer - or maybe they are one and the same!):rolleyes:
Lisa

[QUOTE=LisaJ]if i can cut across you here, (and it looks like someone should!;) ), I was very interested in your Institute of Linguists thing - is there something similar in Italy - I am a qualified English lawyer, but would quite like to put it to some use here in the translation field?
[/QUOTE]
Hi Lisa, there is much talk of them establishing an albo dei traduttori but there is also much opposition to it so I don't know whether it will come into play. Many Italian translators have been to a Scuola Superiore Interpreti e Traduttori but the quality of translator they put out has been contested. However, the IoL is also recognized by many translation agencies in Italy and is very well respected.
If you are a lawyer and can get a translation qualification you will be very sought after as a specialist
Ciao
Sarah

[quote=Rob]Trulli,

Not down here in the SE of England they won't, They want the whole job or nothing. Why, last i heard, to maintain their yearly registration it costs somewhere in the region of 1500pounds a year for re-inspection/assessment by Corgi. Do you think they would claw that yearly expense back just connecting A pipe to A gas supply only. And especially for a non registered plumber.[/quote]

[COLOR=black]Sorry Rob, I am on your side honest, but this is the trouble we all assume that everything and everyone is the same. Each situation has to be assessed individually.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]My son is a plumber and he lives in the South East of England, if he was relient solely on connecting pipes, know he would not cover his fees. It is a quick job that can be fitted in with major jobs and still get paid for his time and knowledge of safety.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=David]

After much thought Frank & Joan placed an offer on the property applying a few conditional clauses. Such clauses addressed the suitable outcome of initial searches which included clean title, feasibility of planning permission for conversion to a civil dwelling and a pre-emption rights waiver. Within a couple of days, the Vendor accepted the offer. Now it was simply a case of doing the right due diligence and moving onto the compromesso!

After a site survey and some initial due diligence, a number of interesting facts quickly transpired. It became apparent that the Vendor did not have title to sell the entire property... [/QUOTE]

Can I make a suggestion to everyone thinking of putting in an offer on a property? Before you even draw up the offer with all those conditional clauses, do a check on the title first? It doesn't take long and doesn't cost much and can save you an awful lot of time and hassle.
Sarah

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca][COLOR=black]Sorry Rob, I am on your side honest, but this is the trouble we all assume that everything and everyone is the same. Each situation has to be assessed individually.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]My son is a plumber and he lives in the South East of England, if he was relient solely on connecting pipes, know he would not cover his fees. It is a quick job that can be fitted in with major jobs and still get paid for his time and knowledge of safety.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Rob, Trulli and Garda -I am so pleased that we are nearly all in agreement here - isn't that nice?

stodge,

See what good old fashioned DEBATE gets you eh?

[QUOTE=LisaJ]if i can cut across you here, (and it looks like someone should!;) ), I was very interested in your Institute of Linguists thing - is there something similar in Italy - I am a qualified English lawyer, but would quite like to put it to some use here in the translation field?
On the "estate agent" thing, surely everyone in Italy dabbles in something? If not, as far as I can see it is pretty much impossible to make a living unless you are connected to the Government! (or a footballer - or maybe they are one and the same!):rolleyes:
Lisa[/QUOTE]

You could try the European University in Florence which has a large European Law faculty - some of the academics there might like help with articles that they want published in international p.r. journals.