2616 foibe

go on then.....

[QUOTE=Wishful Thinker]go on then.....[/QUOTE]

if you put fiobe,into your search engine, plenty of links should come up...

No, let adriatica tell us all about it. His posts are up to 495. At 500 he will become a Sirena - an fairly obvious ploy to get into Aliena's spaceship. :)

[QUOTE=Aliena]Tinker..

Il Mare Adriatica has a voice recognition door entry code and along with a back up plan.. has free access to the spaceship. However, no one.. not even Adriatico, will become a Sirena.. no matter how many posts they have.

La foibe.. relates to 'ethnic cleansing' and the mass murder of Italians during WWII. It was an 'embarassment'.. ma storia fatta di silenzi, di falsificazioni, di mistificazioni.. non e' maestra di vita!

I have an Aliena Style true story related to this if anyone wants to know.. but its not pleasant and I would need to verify facts again with mama 'cus it's many years since I last heard it.

:) :)[/QUOTE]

True stories always welcome. Even if gruesome.

Pola, Zara, Fiume, Istria, Dalmazia... a part of Italy you'll never know, because it's no more Italy.
350.000 Italians left these lands after the war when Jugoslavia took them.
Many weren't so lucky to escape in time, and "disappeared", experiencing the 'ethnic cleansing', that jugoslavians would experience on thmeselves 50 years later

[QUOTE=Sano]True stories always welcome. Even if gruesome.[/QUOTE]

i am not trying to be negative, but.....sometimes, its best to move on and
forget,i know this isn't popular but this event is a very small event that took
place at a time of war,civilains or not, this event was replicated a hundred
fold all over europe/the world, as old enimies tried to take revenge.
the saying least we forget,to me means lets stir things up,lets show our
recentment, lets not give a s..t about other peoples feelings and the hurts
they suffered...
this one fits in there nicely,and i know what some will be saying....we should
learn from it, but we would only learn one side of the recentment.thats
human nature........

[QUOTE=notaio]Pola, Zara, Fiume, Istria, Dalmazia... a part of Italy you'll never know, because it's no more Italy.
350.000 Italians left these lands after the war when Jugoslavia took them.
Many weren't so lucky to escape in time, and "disappeared", experiencing the 'ethnic cleansing', that jugoslavians would experience on thmeselves 50 years later[/QUOTE]

but for how long was it part of italy? or rather the old venezia republic?
the land is slav land,what happened to the original inhabitants?

as for the 50 year comment, i have to agree, it does seem like there is still alot of resentment left in that area of old yugoslavia....sad really..

sorry did not mean to"kill" this thread.......

giovanni... right and wrong.... right because like you say remembering is often an excuse for those that like to think their nations are better than others... wrong i think because knowledge is power...

you have to think that most of us on this forum who live here are not native italian... and without an understanding of the past of a country how do you arrive at the present... i was brought up on tales of huns and ...i think it was eyties ... the glorious british marines and the heroics of that time from the british perspective in the 60s at school... it took me a long time to unlearn much of my education... from the doctrine of the catholic church to the history of the uk as it liked to tell it... to learn by living or staying in different countries and finding out that not all french smelt of garlic..not hated english people...a view still commonly held.... that Austria and its people is a place that i liked to live in and know... and that italy is not a race of cowards and cheats... perceptions taught at school and popularised in comics when i was i child and still almost beyond belief still held by some....

so yes.. the past can sometimes be used by those stupid enough to never learn or think for themselves... but when i see a day of remebrance i want to know ...remembering what... i like to understand why such deep divisions in the lega of the north still exist and why they hate the left so much...and sometimes history helps to explain at least to me... why some parts of a country and a people behave the way they do....

[QUOTE=adriatica]giovanni... right and wrong.... right because like you say remembering is often an excuse for those that like to think their nations are better than others... wrong i think because knowledge is power...

you have to think that most of us on this forum who live here are not native italian... and without an understanding of the past of a country how do you arrive at the present... i was brought up on tales of huns and ...i think it was eyties ... the glorious british marines and the heroics of that time from the british perspective in the 60s at school... it took me a long time to unlearn much of my education... from the doctrine of the catholic church to the history of the uk as it liked to tell it... to learn by living or staying in different countries and finding out that not all french smelt of garlic..not hated english people...a view still commonly held.... that Austria and its people is a place that i liked to live in and know... and that italy is not a race of cowards and cheats... perceptions taught at school and popularised in comics when i was i child and still almost beyond belief still held by some....

so yes.. the past can sometimes be used by those stupid enough to never learn or think for themselves... but when i see a day of remebrance i want to know ...remembering what... i like to understand why such deep divisions in the lega of the north still exist and why they hate the left so much...and sometimes history helps to explain at least to me... why some parts of a country and a people behave the way they do....[/QUOTE]

ofcorse you bring up a great discussion,and i must admit to having spent a
large number of years reading up on italian history,why? well to see my roots.
and yes i too was brought up in england and read history from an english
perspective,and that why i said what i did.
i have no idea what fundamentally lays behind these atrocities,but can
imagine, rightly or wrongly slavs or croats,reading off their historical accounts
of there long history of supression by...whoever,and like you said it can be
dangerous grounds for renewed resentments.
not trying to gloss over this or any other historical event.
i just think whilst politicans can play word games and play for brownie pionts,
they do not care what type/s of resentments they are fueling.its all to do
with whatever political gains they can get.......

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]I doesn't matter what reason the person/people who committed the crime against another gives to excuse it. We must [B]never[/B] allow these inhuman acts to be forgotton.I'm rellay touched when my 2 teenagers buy and wear red poppies in November.....usually when I've forgotton to.

My Uncle was in Abruzzo during ww2 when the Nazis were retreating and saw and heard some awful things.I would not want to blame Germans for what happened then but neither would I want the children of germany not to be taught today what happened then. In case anyone accuses me of being anti-german I would also focus on Africa..a country I feel an immense affinity with.[B]Our[/B] crimes in Africa should never be forgotten or glossed over.Lord Baden Powell wrote to his mother from kumasi in Ghana that he was hoping to kill as many natives/hethens as possible!!!How many Brits are aware of his murky past??

I'm feeling pretty tetchy today so watch out!!

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

[QUOTE=manopello][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]I doesn't matter what reason the person/people who committed the crime against another gives to excuse it. We must [B]never[/B] allow these inhuman acts to be forgotton.I'm rellay touched when my 2 teenagers buy and wear red poppies in November.....usually when I've forgotton to.

My Uncle was in Abruzzo during ww2 when the Nazis were retreating and saw and heard some awful things.I would not want to blame Germans for what happened then but neither would I want the children of germany not to be taught today what happened then. In case anyone accuses me of being anti-german I would also focus on Africa..a country I feel an immense affinity with.[B]Our[/B] crimes in Africa should never be forgotten or glossed over.Lord Baden Powell wrote to his mother from kumasi in Ghana that he was hoping to kill as many natives/hethens as possible!!!How many Brits are aware of his murky past??

I'm feeling pretty tetchy today so watch out!!

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

alas it would be never ending.
there is a solution,maybe we should walk round doing the harry enfield sketch
of the german student.always apoligising for his countrties war crimes.

i could start by apologising for the roman empire, and the way it treated some
100 different nations it conquered in its long history.
i could then appolige for the 50,000 odd muslins, slaughter in puglia.
then i could apoligise for the roman catholic church.
i could then appologise for italys insurgence into africa.
but then i want an oppolige from the austrians,normans swabians,celts.french.
ect,ect.

thankfully i am not true british,or i would need to ask virtually the whole world to forgive me for my actions.

so isn't it better to just move on and make friendlier relations with old enemies?

How can anyone apologise for something someone else did?

[QUOTE=Wishful Thinker]How can anyone apologise for something someone else did?[/QUOTE]

exactly,yet these days that seems to be what is expected.........

I,m with Tink.

I do not feel any apology is necessary from me as neither I nor my family (who mainly consisted of Agricultural Labourers and Shoemakers back to 1720) have committed any atrocities to be ashamed of.

GGGGGGGGGGG Uncle Og was caught on film by Stanley Kubrick but he was a Throwback. :D

I do feel regret at these moments in history but don't blame a whole nation for the actions of a few.

Dave

Giovanni,
of course we do not have to apologize for an ever ending chain of atrocities: every country in some part of his history committed one
It is true that it is not fair to blame a whole nation of it, but it is also true that an ocean is made of drops...
If we remember this, if we are all well aware that everyone can be a victim, may be, I repeat [B]may be[/B], we'll stop to consider this an usual human behaviour, we'll no more accept ideologies encouraging social or racial hate or affirming one country's superiority.
So if a day of remembrance can be used for this purpose (like Shoa's cerimonies) it is surely a good thing, if it is used only to remember the pain, fueling hate or revenge it is something we should avoid like a contagious disease

[QUOTE=notaio]Giovanni,
of course we do not have to apologize for an ever ending chain of atrocities: every country in some part of his history committed one
It is true that it is not fair to blame a whole nation of it, but it is also true that an ocean is made of drops...
If we remember this, if we are all well aware that everyone can be a victim, may be, I repeat [B]may be[/B], we'll stop to consider this an usual human behaviour, we'll no more accept ideologies encouraging social or racial hate or affirming one country's superiority.
So if a day of remembrance can be used for this purpose (like Shoa's cerimonies) it is surely a good thing, if it is used only to remember the pain, fueling hate or revenge it is something we should avoid like a contagious disease[/QUOTE]

i am not arguing with the principle,but the application.

two weeks ago we had the holocaust rememberence day here in the uk.
all well and fine.what does that dream up in your heads.................
well in the uk, it meant that large groups of muslims resented it,wheres
their day..and no they don't want to share the same day,because as i said
what do you associate with the word holocaust.?

here the arguments started on the radio... what about rwanda,bosnia,the list
went on.
the holocaust is a rememberence of what happened in ww2,when the arguments start minor groups pop up and say what about the gypsies,gays ect they were not just jews.
so they say well the day is for everyone.......so again i ask what people do
you associate with the holocaust?

me personely.. well you either have one day for ALL, that way no peoples
should take offense.
or you have 200 days a year for every different race,which always offends
another race as they see it as an attack on their country,which brings me
right back to hurting other peoples/nations feelings.

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]Some of you have missed my point.I did not say anyone should apologise although I've heard it can help!

What I ask for is that people [B]do not forget[/B].That's a different matter.If we are reminded what happens when one religion/ tribe /political party or even family thinks they are right and everyone else is wrong perhaps there may be a slim chance that we will be prevented from following that path again?

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]