2593 Floor tiles showing dampness

I think you know you're options as far as UK practice is concerned. I think it's Adriatica who keeps saying talk to the local tradesmen.

You may find, as we did, it's a common 'problem' which is only experienced by foriegners because the Italians ignore it.

Andy

andy agree ...the locals will know exactly what to do... however we have an old olive mill with the same problem in part and i have never bothered trying to resolve it....

but you have two problems... one your walls need to breath naturally...so cement based renders if any should be removed at least to a certain height... and the floor... the solution used here is to excavate the floor out.... you then insert these pods...a bit like mushrooms or egg cartons... and they are laid in such a way that air will circulate around so you need at least one outside wall where the ground level will allow this air in and out... and then you can put your floor or any other floor back in on top... its the air gap thats required.... there are other systems... all as good
thats the only way to do it...

another problem that house buyers here create because of our own comfort requirements is the fact we add in double glazing and central heating... the one seals of the air circulation ...leading to damp patches in previously cold but undamp houses ... the other tends to draw the moisture in through the wall ... andy will most probably explain if im wrong or even the science of it... but heat seams to atract cold moist air towards it...

and final thing...italian ghouses were ofetn designed to the system of habitation on the first floor ...this meant you had the ground floor as a sort of massive damp course... cellars with earth floors... other rooms open all day with air circulating freely... and we tend to change all this... however italian builders know all these problems and the solutions.... so just ask and get the quotes...it most probably will not be cheap...make sure if digging up a floor to make use of the space for anything else that needs changing as well.... elecrics...water or heating ...its a good place to hide it all away in

Thanks for your replies.

Yes I am getting the electrics re-done - they are ok - for me at the mo - but not really for visitors - so it needs addressing.

As for heating as there is no metano in the village I am opting for a Pellet Stufa with hot air ducts into the other rooms.

There is no cantina - as the place was built for cooking castagni - up on the first floor.

So the habitation is all on the ground floor.

As for damp - it may get better in time as someone in the village goes in to the house and opens up the windows each week. Because I dont live there permanently - I feel the damp when I visit! So a bit worried about soft furnishings! You cant bag up a sofa!

[QUOTE=GlenB]Thanks for your replies.

Yes I am getting the electrics re-done - they are ok - for me at the mo - but not really for visitors - so it needs addressing.

As for heating as there is no metano in the village I am opting for a Pellet Stufa with hot air ducts into the other rooms.

There is no cantina - as the place was built for cooking castagni - up on the first floor.

So the habitation is all on the ground floor.

As for damp - it may get better in time as someone in the village goes in to the house and opens up the windows each week. Because I dont live there permanently - I feel the damp when I visit! So a bit worried about soft furnishings! You cant bag up a sofa![/QUOTE]

Good sound advice from Adriatica as usual, but here's a bit of a correction, although I do generally agree with most of what Adriatica says. One of the issues which causes damp is condensation. When we heat air, we also heat the moisture within it. The cold surfaces which normally occur in italian homes due to the heavy weight construction used and hard finishes instead of wall paper and carpet means that condensation occurs. If you seal all the air movement, you need to ventilate to avoid this. This can be by a ducted system using a heat exchanger to save energy. When I can find the details of these type of units, I will post them.

Using a warm air system is likely to compound this problem, as the moisture will be, at least locally at a very high temperature. In addition, you should not overlook the energy usage of this type of system. The cooling effect of the cold surfaces mentioned above needs to be off-set. This can be done either by raising the air temperature considerably higher or by prioviding hot surface to off-set it (radiators for example). This is one of the reasons I keep banging on about underfloor heating being a good solution, gives a massive arm surface to counter the cold surface otherwise experienced.

Andy

I am confused by this response with regards to warm air heating - as old houses with damp - often had wood burning fires which is a very dry heat.

I would have thought the dry heating of Pellet Stoves wood be ok.

Further - if I live with the damp - what do I do about my soft furnishings - did I buy Scotchguarded furniture if it exists in Italy?

And just bag up the quilts when I leave the property?

The pellet stove I have dries out my house. Makes for easy clothes drying too.

I do put away all the linen and leave just mattress protectors on the beds, which I take off for washing and replace as soon as I arrive. I also move wardrobes, beds, free standing furniture of any sort really, about a foot a way from the walls so the air can circulate- I even my daughter's mirror off the wall as the damp behind is starting to damage the back of the mirror as well as the wall. We thought a damp course was needed. Vendor had insisted there was one (you really wouldn't think so) and local builders reckon the damp is coming sideways from the bathroom and en suite - we're going to have to hack away to find out:(

rising damp hardly ever exists espechaly in subtrates that can breath .look for other sulutions before you start expensive works ie diging up floor ect.look for bad venterlation wrong paint on walls these walls need to breath allso look for blocked or brocken pipes i have nerly allways found the simple solution the best .one example i found when correcting sorvayors reports in victoran house in england was damp to the left of the front door ,whats there the downpipe usaly broken below gl mend pipe problem solved

[QUOTE=GlenB]I am confused by this response with regards to warm air heating - as old houses with damp - often had wood burning fires which is a very dry heat.

I would have thought the dry heating of Pellet Stoves wood be ok.

Further - if I live with the damp - what do I do about my soft furnishings - did I buy Scotchguarded furniture if it exists in Italy?

And just bag up the quilts when I leave the property?[/QUOTE]

Let me explain where I was coming from. It's the warm air ducts I would have a problem with. In the actual room a pellet stove is used, I have no concerns.

Let's get a bit scientific with regards to heat; There are three types:

1) Conduction. Touch a cold surface, heat will transfer from you to the surface. It will then pass through the material until, in theory but not in practice, the material and you are all at the same temperature.
2) Convection. This occurs when warm air passes over a heat souce. The air gets warmer and circulates.
3) Radiation. This occurs when you have a hot object. Heat will be transmitted to other surfaces without affecting the air in between. For example when you turn on a gas fire, you can sit in front of it and feel warm. The air in the room is still cold, but by sitting in front of it, you feel warm. That is due to radiation.

Let's look at what make you warm. A better phrase is thermal comfort. The following all effect your thermal comfort:

Air temp
Radiant temp
Air speed
Humidity

Humidity is more apparent on the other end of the spectrum, so we'll ignore that. We'll also assume your place is not draughty, because it's just easier.

The air temperature is provided by convected heat. The radiant temperature is provided by hot surfaces. You need a balance of these to feel warm. If you don't have this balance ie: in an all warm air system, you would need to significantly increase the air temperature to compensate for the lack of hot surfaces. This in turn increases the temperature of vapour in the air. If there is no radiant element of heating, the surfaces will not get warm quickly. This gives a significant temperature difference between the water vapour and the surfaces, which means that the water vapour will be deposited on the surface. The increased air temperature also means that you will probably have a significant increase in energy costs.

An example. If you are travelling with three people in a car, who are breathing, their breath contains water vapour. If you have the heater directed at your feet, your windscreen will probably fog over. If you then transfer the heat to the windscreen it will clear.

Condensation is a RISK with warm air systems, not a formality. They need very careful consideration and prefferably very good ventilation control.

What else to do is another issue. As a matter of preference, I like underfloor systems. That said, they are costly and can involve some expensive insulation. You can achieve a very good system with radiators which is simpler to install and therefore less costly.

I think my opening post said speak to local tradesmen. I do not know from your post how bad the damp problem is. The issues you have to consider are many. Adriatica's post, whilst probably factually correct prescribed some rather major surgery (Still with the suggestion you need to speak to local tradesmen), mine suggested that it may be possible to ignore it. Take advice from the builders. You may be pleasently surprised by their advice, you may not. That said i can't see it being worse than the scenario being painted by Adriatica.

I know the three builders we saw couldn't even understand what the problem was with the damp, let alone getting them to quote to fix it. It's in our dining room, where we will be putting a noce metal framed table with a glazed top and removable cushions on the seats.

Anyway, should you want to discuss this further, would be happy to have a chat about it. Drop me a PM and we can meet up in the chat room before you go back.

Andy

PS: Sorry it took so long to get to the point, but I think we got there

Andy,
Wher is your house and who is putting in your stuffa?

[QUOTE=kanea]Andy,
Wher is your house and who is putting in your stuffa?[/QUOTE]

Near Mulazzo - there is an ironmonger that sells Pellet Stufe behind the Conad in Villafranca in Lunigiana also I have found this place -

Il Nostro indirizzo Corretto e:
EDIL CENTER
VIA PALA 41 54020 SCORCETOLI
DI FILATTIERA.
Ci troviamo al confine con il comune di Pontremoli a circa 400 metri dall'uscita
dell'autostrada.
Se vuole venirci a trovare ci chiami al
N° telefonico 0187457254, sarà nostra premura darle tutte le indicazioni
necessarie.

It seems normal to let the shop fit it.

Oh apparently the Ironmonger behind Conad is closing down - but there is a guy that sells Stufa from his house on the way to Bagnone

Tho I found the Ceramic Tiles shop opposite the Pool in Villafranca to be very helpful

I have had several quotes - using varous technologies.

[url]http://www.daliform.com/inglese/inglese.htm[/url]

that tells you all about the Iglu' technology - one builder even gave me an Iglu' to take home!!!

Can the Iglu system be used with underfloor heating or would the air flow under the floor negate the heating effect?

------------ Tiled Floor -------------

--------- Concrete Layer -----------
with heating coil in

--------------- Iglu ----------------

--------- Cement Bedding ----------

Dave

[QUOTE=YNot]Can the Iglu system be used with underfloor heating or would the air flow under the floor negate the heating effect?

------------ Tiled Floor -------------

--------- Concrete Layer -----------
with heating coil in

--------------- Iglu ----------------

--------- Cement Bedding ----------

Dave[/QUOTE]

Installed in the concrete layer above the igloo would probably be ok. May need additional insulation and check with manufacturer