2562 A dirty job...but someone has to do it

i would honestly like some input on this.... notaio..and mr joseph...tell me how wrong i am... or even right...add more history to my broad sweep statements... as a web site on italy and italian life... this is going to be very important for all of us that plan or have a life here... one day some of us will even be elligible to vote..... not only in a political sense but the way the system and those in it behave also shows in a way how different the thinking is here ... and maybe why something so simple as a house buying process can be so difficult

Thanks for posting this thread. I'm real interested in hearing about the political news, and I find it fascinating. There is a push for the center here in the US too, as the extremes of the right or the left don't really represent most peoples views.

Adriatica
(Greatscott pipped me at the post!) I also wanted to say that I enjoyed reading your post and I hope you get some more input from across the board. Its really interesting and informative. I read La Stampa - but I find the political pages are a bit hard going. (or is it just Italian politics.....?)

Karen

Just to be clear from the beginning: I'll vote for the left on the next april election.
It is true that Mr. Berlusconi has been able to govern for 5 years, but stability isn't necerrily a value, if during 5 stable years govern and parliament give off bad laws.
In [B]my opinion [/B]this is what happened here.
Brlusconi won the last election selling a dream to the voters.
This is not strange, it is what every politician essentially does: sometimes these dreams come true, sometimes they are only hidden nightmares, sometimes they are just mere dreams, vanishing when you wake up.
The dream sold by Berlusconi was: I'm the richest man in Italy, I've been able to reach this aim, trust in me and you all will become richer.
Ok, I know this is an oversimplification, but we are on a forum and I'm not writing a political essay:cool: .
Now, after 5 years of Berlusconi's treatment, the economy is flat (an average of scarcely +1% of the GNP), the people do not feel their welfare increasing, there's social insecurity, many of the new laws (like tax reduction) have been felt as made for the rich part of the country only.
People aren't..... happy: happyness is not a political category, but it's something we all have to consider when we think about politics.
In other words (and always in my opinion), the dream didn't become true, may be it is not a nightmare, but it's remained only a dream.
About your consideration on how the two parties seem to hate each other, this is true, but this is related to the personality of Berlusconi.
We can like him or not, but he has a value: the strenght to change the "rules of the game".
In your national history Mrs Thatcher had this power and, not by chance, she was really hated too.
Her policy was strongly opposed, even with street riots... I can still remember a title of TIME Magazine "why England burns"....
But after all, I guess, people felt that she was pursueing that policy because she had a vision of the UK future.
In Italy, after 5 years, peple's feeling that Berlusconi hasn't a vision of italian future, but only a vision of his present and future interests.
I'm not saying that this is real, but this is what people's feeling, at least the 52% that in the polls is choosing the left.

While I disagree Berlusca is a criminal I doubt his past is that of a saint. But then neither is mine. Yours?? I believe he is a man with vision who is being held back by the "old guard". Most dislike him because of envy.

How can Italy ever press ahead when the local and regional politicians are not ousted? It is easy to blame the PM when the locals refuse to change their ways. I see many communities whose leftist politicians block anything new simply because it comes from the right. Look at Italy's political history and see how many times the left have held power and did nothing. I have even seen the guy get voted in and then change political party back to the Rifondista. A black kettle is just that. Once a commie.... Oh wait, Communists in Italy drive Mercedes and have two or three homes and own a factory. Hmmm, never could figure that one out. Go stand in line for bread in Moscow and then come back say "Io sono una Rofondista!" Think Fausto Bertinotti drives a little Fiat and leads a simple life like he expects you to do if he was in power and ruled the way he wants?

Ok, Ok, I know, I sound like an American Capitalist Pig.

Prodi? Surely you jest. The man can't even speak English, the language of the EU...He is a pawn and a moron. He may be a good accountant but he has the personality and appearance of a penguin. Kind of reminds of the kid who got beat up in school all the time.

People crying about their pensions and welfare? C'mon, you can't have 20 year pensions and not bankrupt the country, period. Low birthrates will also affect this in the future. If the left is promising their usual pension reform it is all lies. Can't be like it was ever again.

prodi.. you say maybe a good accountant, sounds good to me,or should we
vote for those who look good and can talk english?wasn't gates picked on at
school?and personality? over brains? well yes that happens,but surely voters
are wissing up to it.....but not in california....
as for berlu, well he would be a one of a kind,if as well as being extremely
wealthy,was also without serious faults...it just doesn't happen....not in
italy anyway.........so who noise..maybe one day they will work together.
afterall here in the uk we have a labour government[left party] thats more
far right than the conservatives[rightish wing party]?

I read this article tonight, and I thought I would post it here as it seems it might be politically motivated?

Business in Italy
Special service by AGI on behalf of the Italian Prime Minister's office

REGIONAL PROJECT FOR VICTIMS OF PROSTITUTION
(AGI) - Ascoli Piceno, Feb. 4 - Prostitution on southern Marche's coast and Abruzzo rose in the last ten years with continue changes. The prostitutes were Albanian and Nigerian women at the beginning of the 90s, Ukrainian and Russian women in the second half of the 90s, Moldavian women between 1999 and 2001, Romanians in the last three years while Bulgarian women are emerging. The trafficking of human beings for black work and begging developed in the last ten years. The Equal "Access right" project - financed with EU funds - was born to answer to these problems. The project is aimed at rising the job and social opportunities for the women who have been prostitutes. The project monitors the situation in the area and gives job opportunities trough vocational training. The association On the Road from Martinsicuro (TE), the Ancona based Free Woman association, the provinces of Ancona and Ascoli Piceno, the Porto Sant'Elpidio community number 20 and the university of Macerata are partners in the project. Marche's Lega delle cooperative and Macerata's manufacturer's federation will support the project to help the young women to find a job and to train them. The Redattore Sociale press agency of Capodarco di Fermo and the Metabole' company will have the scientific supervision of the project. The project will be presented on Tuesday Feb. 7 2006 at 12 in a press conference at the piano room (first floor) in Porto Sant'Elpidio town hall, Villa Murri. Regional labour councillor, Ugo Ascoli and PIC Equal responsible person Elisabetta Mattei will take part in the ceremony with the scientific coordinators and partners.

Notaio... i knew we were not going to agree but i thank you for your perspective.. and thankfully there is someone who has an interest in whatever the outcome will affect us all.... big johnny you might be new here on the forum but at least you know something about Italy and your thoughts are also valuable... geatscott... useful input... however you have to realise all these social projects attract huge EU grants and Italy is renowned for their abuse...ie the south here most probably receives more money than any other area in the EU and actually less than half goes into the worthy projects.... the EU and its membership, Italies fraudulent entry into the EURO zone were seen by Prodi and his cronies as a money making exercise... if you look at his company in Bologna,, Numi...sorry cannot remember the name...its the italian of coin collecting... him and his wife ...benefit to the degree of several million Euro from its EU funded research projects... to the others that have replied i also give a big thankyou... and trust there will be more that have what i might call a genuine interest in the place ... italy .. that is... and life here ... and so i continue with in Notaios words my own opinion of the upcoming battle... and notaio... please feel free to comment without prejudice... my views are after all someone that in a sense looks from the outside... i would be more than interested in a deepr understanding of why you will vote for the left... but more so why on earth will anyone in italy vote for Prodi.

I think that what one has to realise that from the time of Mussolini the Italian state has been virtually a totalitarian country much in the vein of countries of the East. Many look back to the Fascist era with fond memories of the north south poverty divide being broken by a dictator who the south loved because he brought prosperity and work. Italy was a country undivided and history might well have been different here and Italy better off if a certain little Austrian had never appeared. However he did and the cause and effect of this was a Partisan movement based in communism and so Italy moved from Fascist totalitarian to the communist version. Which basically appears to me even worse, control over your citizens, identity checks and no freedom of movement.
Which is why when you come to Italy now as a foreigner its so different. Police checks, no house moving without application to a commune, telephone intercepts, the excuse of criminality , protectionism and co-operative movements, with their various tax breaks.
That’s just skimming the surface of a country who’s citizens are most probably the most controlled in Western Europe. Whose choice is limited by the state.
Which is where the arguments begin and why I support Berlusconi, not that I like him, but he has a better more consistent team. His vision of Italy is based on a Thatcherist balanced by Blair vision. God forbid you might say. But in reality Italy who cooked the books to get into the Euro zone under Prodi was never going to succeed unless someone came along and tried to break the union / left hold on the Italian economy. A person with enough strength and vision to try and break the judiciary, the monopolies and jump Italy into modern western life.
But the hate between the two tribes, left and right still exists. There are moderate parties on both sides.. Fini and Rutelli…excuse my spelling but you ll know who I mean are fairly balanced individuals from either side. Maybe an Italian state with either of those two in command would be better. But its not going to be, it needs the brute of Berlusconi or the piety of Prodi, his sponsor the catholic church to hold either side together.
The choice is straight, high taxation and control of the Italian citizen , union control of its production and eventual bankruptcy under EU legislation or free market, flush the unions down the toilet where they belong, they have made the workers eat enough S** T, while creaming off their villas and yachts, and a police state controlled by a Judiciary that in any other country would be ashamed to call it so.
I hope that for the sake of Italy the man gets re elected. That he gets another five years to re-enforce the changes he has made and to further allow the freedoms of choice here that most western states have enjoyed well before Italy even dreamed of freedom. You never know, one day trying to live in italy might well be easier, obtaining a bank account might even be simple, and god forbid they might even apply the rule that EU citizens have a right to residence in whatever EU zone they choose.

[QUOTE=adriatica] Unlike England who wins here will make a big difference in tax laws , second homes and in general life in the country.[/QUOTE]

John what do you mean re second homes? Is there something that we should know?

[QUOTE=adriatica]Notaio... i knew we were not going to agree but i thank you for your perspective.. and thankfully there is someone who has an interest in whatever the outcome will affect us all.... big johnny you might be new here on the forum but at least you know something about Italy and your thoughts are also valuable... geatscott... useful input... however you have to realise all these social projects attract huge EU grants and Italy is renowned for their abuse...ie the south here most probably receives more money than any other area in the EU and actually less than half goes into the worthy projects.... the EU and its membership, Italies fraudulent entry into the EURO zone were seen by Prodi and his cronies as a money making exercise... if you look at his company in Bologna,, Numi...sorry cannot remember the name...its the italian of coin collecting... him and his wife ...benefit to the degree of several million Euro from its EU funded research projects... to the others that have replied i also give a big thankyou... and trust there will be more that have what i might call a genuine interest in the place ... italy .. that is... and life here ... and so i continue with in Notaios words my own opinion of the upcoming battle... and notaio... please feel free to comment without prejudice... my views are after all someone that in a sense looks from the outside... i would be more than interested in a deepr understanding of why you will vote for the left... but more so why on earth will anyone in italy vote for Prodi.

I think that what one has to realise that from the time of Mussolini the Italian state has been virtually a totalitarian country much in the vein of countries of the East. Many look back to the Fascist era with fond memories of the north south poverty divide being broken by a dictator who the south loved because he brought prosperity and work. Italy was a country undivided and history might well have been different here and Italy better off if a certain little Austrian had never appeared. However he did and the cause and effect of this was a Partisan movement based in communism and so Italy moved from Fascist totalitarian to the communist version. Which basically appears to me even worse, control over your citizens, identity checks and no freedom of movement.
Which is why when you come to Italy now as a foreigner its so different. Police checks, no house moving without application to a commune, telephone intercepts, the excuse of criminality , protectionism and co-operative movements, with their various tax breaks.
That’s just skimming the surface of a country who’s citizens are most probably the most controlled in Western Europe. Whose choice is limited by the state.
Which is where the arguments begin and why I support Berlusconi, not that I like him, but he has a better more consistent team. His vision of Italy is based on a Thatcherist balanced by Blair vision. God forbid you might say. But in reality Italy who cooked the books to get into the Euro zone under Prodi was never going to succeed unless someone came along and tried to break the union / left hold on the Italian economy. A person with enough strength and vision to try and break the judiciary, the monopolies and jump Italy into modern western life.
But the hate between the two tribes, left and right still exists. There are moderate parties on both sides.. Fini and Rutelli…excuse my spelling but you ll know who I mean are fairly balanced individuals from either side. Maybe an Italian state with either of those two in command would be better. But its not going to be, it needs the brute of Berlusconi or the piety of Prodi, his sponsor the catholic church to hold either side together.
The choice is straight, high taxation and control of the Italian citizen , union control of its production and eventual bankruptcy under EU legislation or free market, flush the unions down the toilet where they belong, they have made the workers eat enough S** T, while creaming off their villas and yachts, and a police state controlled by a Judiciary that in any other country would be ashamed to call it so.
I hope that for the sake of Italy the man gets re elected. That he gets another five years to re-enforce the changes he has made and to further allow the freedoms of choice here that most western states have enjoyed well before Italy even dreamed of freedom. You never know, one day trying to live in italy might well be easier, obtaining a bank account might even be simple, and god forbid they might even apply the rule that EU citizens have a right to residence in whatever EU zone they choose.[/QUOTE]

john, you are right when you say its a dirty job...and your right to want to
get rid of all that coruption.
but i'm sorry to say,its not a decease that applies only to italy, and believing
that berlo can/will clean it all up.....? yes he may make it better he may even
get rid of a fair few small fat cats. but...he is a fatcat himself..he has fat cat
friends! is he going to turn on them? on a few occassions has he not had to
face court room battles? monopolizing? conflict of interests? here in the uk, had it got to court,he would have been finished..and its only because the italian law system is full of loop holes he got away with it.prodis no better.

i do not understand the freedom of choice bit?

unions? agree on that......but i am really scared if he does go along the lines
of thatcherism,as she as are most politicians only look to there term/s in office, look at the uk now. ok no one is starving,but the entire economy base
has changed. huge potentaul industries are gone.privitazation,well that went
well a few quid to the workers,a few million to the bosses...did you mention
fat cats earlier? and {please i am only summerizing}
corruption? here we call it back handers... so its sort of legal or doesn't sound as bad,and it still exits here small time and big time.

"italy might have been better off,if not for a certain"
sorry cannot agree with that what so ever,musso like a lot of dictators was going to expand,but as
his general advised him they would not be ready till 1943!thankfully he jumped the gun,and this statement itself counters your freedom sentence.
as there is no freedom for the masses when a dictator holds power.
right wing or left wing.and some feel that berlo should have this type of
power!...
but you know what they say absolute power corrupts..apsolutely....

I have found this a very interesting thread- I have been here nearly a year now and Italian politics baffles, amuses and frustrates me. My partner is from the south and as set out here, believes Mussolini did great things for the south- now we live in "Communist" Tuscany. I find it amazing and bizarre (and it certainly caused concern amongst my friends) that my partner is happy to call himself a fascist! Now that I know that this means he is simply not a "communist" it seems less threatening- but even these titles and old allegiances show how far Italy has to go.
Unfortunately my view is that Italy is not a true democracy. In a previous life I was a lawyer and a fundamental of a democracy is independence of the government from the judiciary. That just doesn't happen here. I watched from England with hilarity and some disgust at Berlusconi passing the laws which granted him immunity from prosecution from his corruption charges - and savoured every minute of the fantastic article in the Economist which was an open invitation for him to refute their charges. His defence then and now is that the judiciary (magistrates) are from the left, and therefore the charges and any possible proceedings would be unfair. From a distance I thought that this was bonkers, but now I am here and have direct experience of how public contracts are shared out, how employment policies work etc there seems to me that there is probably alot of truth in it. As to the future, I think that B will be reelected, because I think that Prodi is pretty much unelectable in terms of international and national presence - Berlusconi is everywhere - not least of course thanks to his (obviously impartial!) ownership of a large proportion of the press and the other media. And when I was having dinner with friends on Sat evening, and B was being interviewed, he was even described as "simpatico"- funny/ entertaining. The latter is now what i think the Italians will look for in their leader, because they are too exhausted by corruption to think that anything will really ever change (the politicians from the left and the right will continue to cream off their money (i think that they get about €300,000 per annum so being in a provincial or national policital role is seen very much a "nice little earner" here - while everyone else struggles to make a living- including the unions who seem determined to bring everything in Italy to its knees) and the crisis that is the future of the Italian economy (pensions, the huge number of state employees and the ridiculous tax system) will just continue to be second place to the daily slagging match between the 2 sides.
O dear that is all very depressing, but hey at least the wine is good!!!!! (Which i think is a summary what Berlusconi said last year when it was put to him!)
So drink and be merry!
Lisa

giovanni ... i cannot vote here anyway... and if i could and did berlusconi would only get it because i see him as the better of two evils... and i regard most of his team ...apart from the lega nord as more balanced than the prodi team... i like cassini, the agriculture guy... cannot remeber his name and the health guy... funny thing is about the leag nord side is that most of its votes come through members of the trade unions up there ... and the trade unions here are very much associated with the left ....so what sense does it make really....

the mussolini part was in a way just to point out that for the last 60 plus years italy has been a police controlled state .... with very strict control of citizens movements and tight control over industry and the economy by the state.... that it changed from the facist control to the communist control really made little difference... just a name change for in essence control of the citizenry if thats a word....

i dont like to compare italy to the uk because in fact there is no comparison... often why people find it hard to comprehend the level of difficulty here is that italians have had a life time to learn and abuse the system and can cope.... so when i mentioned the two politicians from the uk it was more to give an example of the direction he is taking but with little or no hope of really achieving or ruining ...depending on your viewpoint ....as much ....

things like al italia... privatised ...gone bust...government money put in...week long strike still going bust and they are all worried about a flag carrying airline...they ll save it again most probably... and theyll continue to strike at least once a month....

italian banks ...big scandal with unipol and bnl .... french bank takes over ...lega nords comment ...they would rather the left here took it over than any foreigners...keep italy for the italians.... i dont think hes too happy about all the foreign buyers up there....

a strange alliance is also being formed between the sicilian independence groups and the lega nord to fight in this election...heres a bit of north south comradeship.....

... i enjoyed the response of lisaj... i dont find it depressing at all... i am not sure the right will win... there is a lot lined up against him.... including the feeling which notaio pointed out that people feel very much worse off now.... it would have happened anyway... prodi got italy into the euro zone... but i think its much more interestuing and entertaining than any uk election

by the way wishful... the lefts manifest runs to almost three hundred pages with something like 400 proposals ..... i narrowed down and presented one which might well interest foreign owners... higher tax rates and less tax breaks on second homes.... this is only one that will effect life here... others will be much higher taxs in the regional / commune sense to restore their high spending habits ....

I personally think GianFranco Fini would be a good choice but his AN party past haunts him. Berlusca is Italy's only chance to keep it's flair in the world and stay on the USA's good side for now.

After 20+ years of living here and watching the changes I am still amazed at how many people speak with the right and then vote with the left. Hmmm, think maybe the elections could be rigged? Remember the Super Enalotto rigging a few years ago? Yet people still pump millions into the lotto hoping to win. When I play I walk away saying "I just bought someone in Rome an espresso....

Italian politics are not worth following because just when you think something might go for the better it won't. My god, how many votes of confidence can you have?

Viva Berlusca!

I live in Aviano, a town dominated by the US Air Base and a large American population. Many Italians work on the base and then go home to be a "Rifondista". Kind of sad I think, drink from the plate and then throw rocks at it. Yet when Fausto came to visit every bar and shop in town was closed and you could not get an espresso anywhere. I think maybe they are DS-AN and confused....

Any man who promises to have no sex before the elections must really want to be re-elected. Such a man, who can control his animal instincts for this purpose, cannot be all bad for the country.:D

Well John, what can I say, an opinion it's an opinion and I do not dare to hope to change yours, even if I like to share them.
You think that Prodi is a communist puppet, I could answer that Berlusconi is simply "unfit to govern Italy" as "The Economist" wrote before the last election, but this would lead us to nowhere, hiding ourselves behind mere slogans.... the commies want to rise taxes ... the unions are sponges or, on the other side... they are fascists...racists etc.
I know very well that the center-left coalition isn't perfect and has contradictions in itself (i.e. mr. Bertinotti), but the same kind of contradictions has the other coalition, where cohabit a semi-racist party (Lega Nord), post-fascist party (Alleanza Nazionale) and a populist party (Forza Italia).
This is what's offering the Italian political market: I have to choose and I choose, considering how Berlusconi ruled in these years.
Let's leave behind for a while propaganda and let's talk for a while of facts.
During these 5 years Italy has had the lowest economic growth among the biggest industrial countries: less than 1% in the last year (when the left was at the govern it was 3,2%)
The fiscal pressure hasn't been substantially reduced: there have been some tax cuts, but these have been quite non influential for the majority of the population (I guess you're living permanently in Italy, did you really noticed them ?).
There hasn't been a real fight against tax evasion and black economy, in fact there have been several, diverse "condoni", that is a way to "forgive" people who didn't pay taxes, making feel people who paid precisely as silly and pushing them to not pay again.
There have been a lot of laws "ad personam": laws changed essentially for personal interests of Mr. Berlusconi and not for rational or legal reasons.
I give you an example.
Now in Italy a fraud in a company balance sheet, despite big scandals like Parmalat, is considered a minor crime and thanks to this new law (voted by center - right parties) a trial in which Berlusconi was involved has been simply cancelled.
In the USA (not properly ruled by communists), after the Enron scandal, the punishments for those crimes have been enormously increased.
I'd be able to go on, but, as I wrote before, this a forum and not a political issue.
Just a few words about fascism.
John you wrote [I]"Italy was a country undivided and history might well have been different here and Italy better off if a certain little Austrian had never appeared. However he did and the cause and effect of this was a Partisan movement based in communism and so Italy moved from Fascist totalitarian to the communist version". [/I]Sorry if I misunderstood, but it seems to me you're suggesting that Musssolini was after all a nice guy, with a bad friend (the little Austrian).
I remind you that the fascist regime abolished in Italy all the liberties and in the end led Italy to a disastrous war, with more than 300.000 deaths, leaving a destroyed country.
About the partisan movement, it wasn't communist based and even if communists was a relevant part of, it was essentially a people's movement, reflecting many different ideologies: liberal, socialist, monarchic, but in the end they all fought and died (about 80.000) for the freedom and dignity of Italy.
You understand italian, so I suggest you to read "Lettere dei condannati a morte della Resistenza Italiana" (last letters of italian partisans sentenced to death) published by Einaudi: it gives a clear vision of their life and sentiments. It's a book that might enlightens very much of the Italian history, well beyond stereotypes.
Finally, I don't understand what you mean saying that "Italy moved from fascist totalitarism to the communist version", since Italy has never been ruled by communist party (just to be clear, this was a fortune, because it was stalinist) and the only time the left (no more stalinist at all, but only social-democratic) ruled Italy was with the first Prodi's Govern.

The Italian dictator did not need that little bugger from Austria to get things going. After all, he went into Ethiopia long before the Austrian started his copycat campaign.;)

notaio francis m

maybe i didnt express myself well on the subject of mussolini... i hold no love for that person or that era.... and realise the problems he caused... however... not all italians feel the same... it still manages to surprise me how fond some are of that time and that even sort of historical factual drams here are still made with a more than glossed over version...

however thats how it is here... and ok he popped down to north africa...but i am not sure that he had visions of controlling the whole of europe... he did move italy on from a poverty striken era into one where they produced enough food to support themselves... at what cost...i guess is the question...

... actually his family was in the news again this week.... i think its the last...but one of his children died the other day.... he was i think the most respected of the offspring... i dont know that much about him...but it seems he was a gentle man ...and a very good jazz musician... but the tale still persists here that mussolini the father was a very nice man ...and that he wasnt as bad as people make out... that i might not agree with this version is by the way... a lot of italians do....

Well all I can say is that Mussolini, despite his other faults. (siding with Hitler etc) was good for his OWN country anyway and most italians think the same. It's all over now .

rina... i agree that they do ... but in a snse although this is old history it is the way of the world that people like to re write things.... francism comments are well founded...am not sure how this has got into a mussolini debate... but when you say things that he was good for his own country it might be as well to bear in mind as francism mentioned ... this little piece of history below...and the struggle of that country to have the world recognise its sufferance.... it might well be an eye opener for all those that live here and choose to make comments about germans and french...or any other nation...we all have our diirty laundry... thankfully some countries have grown up enough to admit to their past ... italy has a long way to go... i would doubt most have ever heard that just before "the holocaust" another much the same occured... on a scale undreamed of... until mr hitler...

The purpose of the Committee is to resurrect, address and to preserve the long ignored history of the Ethiopian Holocaut 1935-1941 that was carried out with poison gas sprayed from airplanes, and other horrific atrocities that claimed the lives of no less than 2 million Ethiopian men, women and children.The Ethiopian Holocaust Remembrance Committee was established by Imani Kali-Nyah and Abraham Alemu in 1993 with the assistance and support of a small group of world renown Ethiopians and Friends of Ethiopia, such as Professor Richard Pankhurst, Dr. Getachew Haile, Ato Zaude Haile-Mariam, Dr. Erku Yimer, Dr. Ashanefe Kebede, Nathaniel Clay, Brian Russel and David Watson.
The purpose of the Committee is to resurrect, address and to preserve the long ignored history of the Ethiopian Holocaut 1935-1941 that was carried out with poison gas sprayed from airplanes, and other horrific atrocities that claimed the lives of no less than 2 million Ethiopian men, women and children. The Ethiopian Holocaut 1935-1941 occurred virtually within the same timeframe as the Jewish Holocaust 1933-1945, but due to historical bias and media bias, this horrific story has been hidden from public view for the past 69 years!
Professor Richard Pankhurst has supported the Committees vision since inception and remains an active member. The Committee presented a mock trial at the Centinnial of American-Ethiopian Relations in Washington DC at Howard University from March 22-March 29, 2004.
In 2001, the Committee constructed a traveling musuem exhibit entitled "The Day the Angels Cried" and published The Special Year 2000 Edition of "Italy's War Crimes in Ethiopia 1935-1941," which includes the full text of the 1946 pamphlet which was first published by Sylvia Pankhurst, mother of Professor Richard Pankhurst.
The book and the exhibit provide credible evidence for the war crimes commission and the International Criminal Court. It is the intent of the Committee to present this evidence in a mock-trial to members of the United Nations and the International Criminal Court.
Both the book and the Exhibit are based on over 22 years research. Professor Richard Pankhurst wrote the Year 2000 Introduction and was editor of the book.
The aim of the Committee is to hold the UN accountale for failing to address the issue since its inception in 1947, and for ignoring the issue at the 50th Anniversary of the Declaration of Human Rights held in Rome in 1998. Moreover, the further aims of the Committee are to encourage the UN to include the Ethiopian Holocaust on their official Holocaust list, and to encourage the UN to honor the 1947 Peace Treaty between Italy, the UN and Ethiopia where Italy promised to return all of Ethiopia's national treasures that were stolen from Ethiopia from 1935-1941 "within 18 months." To date Italy has refused to return these treasures and the UN has failed miserable to enforce the 1947 Treaty.
The Committee is also seeking justice for the Patriots who gave and lost their lives fighting for ancient Ethiopian soverignty...these are those who fell to poison as, and many who have medical problems, some say are attributed to the poison gas. While Italy extradited an 83 year old ex-nazi from Argentina to stand trial for war crimes against the Italian-Jews, no fascist Italian has ever been tried nor convicted of war crimes against the Ethiopin people.
To add insult to injury, Prime Minister Berlusconi of Italy made recent statements that "Mussolini never killed anyone," and Mussolini's birthplace has now become a tourist attraction...while Ethiopia stands by silently.
Imani Kali-Nyah, CEO of the Committee just returned from a two week visit to Ethiopia where she laid the ground work for bringing the Ethiopian Holocaust Traveling Museum Exhibit to Ethiopia in 2005, at Addis Ababa University. Imani was well received by the Ethiopian Tourism Commission, The Ethiopian Patriots Association, The Haile Selassie Memorial Foundation, and St. George's Church, the location of Emperor Haile Selassie's Coronation.
Imani was also able to videotape, for the first time in history, actual first hand testimonies of surviving Patriots and will include the information in the traveling museum Exhibit. She also visited historic sites of famous battlefields and heard first hand testimonies of Generals and Colonels who fought in the war.
The International Grand Opening of "The Day the Angels Cried Traveling Museum Exhibit," will be on display at Addis Ababa University in Ethiopia in 2005 where a ceremony honoring surviving as well as deceased Patriots will be held

and i think something that might make all of us think are the words below

The Day the Angels Cried

By Michelle Holt

One day the Angels cried,

For heartless souls, for sin and lies.

One day man did weep,

Their hearts unwound,

Their lives so cheap;

I heard not laughter in the sky,

I heard the sounds of Angels cry.

Woe, woe the heavenly sound struck dear earth

It touched the ground!

Very few had heard this cry,

Their anguish buried deep inside;

They tried to reach the souls of lost-

But there was no answer,

Just holocaust.

I saw a band of Angels

Weeping from each side.

I saw a wind in front of me,

I saw all they who died

The souls of men and women in refute to see the light,

There wasn’t any glory the day the Angels cried.

A light did shine from heaven

Yet few did reap the sign,

All they who knew its meaning left in nick of time.

The day the Angels cried,

I heard their weeping woes;

I heard above the echoes,

Heaven’s gate was closed.

No more shall they torment the many hearts he gained.

No where shall they shelter when evil is unchained!

The stars will scatter in the sky, the rumbling seas no more.

The bitter fruit now rotten; its stench to solid core.

The Angels cries then ceased at last rejoiceth in his name.

God’s people had been taken fast

The rest all laid in shame

notaio

your right ... no official communist ruling party...but in 1948 the communists would indeed have won and been leading the country if the us had not interfered...

there was a campaign in which it was stated that there would be no more aid to italy under the marshall plan if they won.... that no one with an italian passport would be allowed into the us ... and that trieste would not be returned to italy.... just some of the minimal pressure ..there was a lot more ...that the us used in defeating the communists in the first "free" election here.... the cause was that instead of running the country in a formal sense they took over all the regional/communal posts... and ran the country anyway... sometimes one might think they still do...

the totalitarian bit ...is based on my views of citizenship ... ie the rights of the police to control the citizen here ... stop and searches... anytime... carrying of id.... registration of movement ....control over money ....control over communications... these are all things that are just arriving in england ...promoted by the state as rules against terrorism... but they have and still do exist in italy ... and its the choice and right of the state here to exercise total control over the citizenry... and many of these controls although not used these days were established under fascist/communist ideals. i regard the two as faces of the same coin ...extremsim without reason and basically total control of a state.

i am pleased that there are a few on the forum that take an interest of the history of the place and apreciate you efforts in replying ... as aliena has said in english... i am afraid i could not do the same or anywhere close in italian... i have also made a note of your reccomendation of reading ... and will do ... i do not happen to agree that it was a popular uprising solely but i do agree that a lot of people died... one of the main reasons it was so high was the american/british decision to leave the northern partisans stranded towards the end of the war and at the mercy of the germans... again it was this big fear of communist partisan movements that the decision was based on... they had seen the yugoslav and the greek resistance... so a lot of italians died because they had no supplies and the allied troop help was not provided... sad days... i think it is also worth noting though that a further 10,000 italians were murdered by the partisan movement at the end of the war.... so again history has a lot of perspectives ...none of them easy to accept or agree on....

[QUOTE=Rina]Well all I can say is that Mussolini, despite his other faults. (siding with Hitler etc) was good for his OWN country anyway and most italians think the same. It's all over now .[/QUOTE]

Be warned, a lot of Italians who like the cut of Mussolini's jib also know a quotation of his: "never trust the British"(non si fidi mai dell'inglese) and probably heed it in the same way many trust the famous quotes of Churchill.
I tried to find Mussolini's quote on the web but couldn't.

John, your last post about Ethiopia enlightens perfectly what I meant about fascism: it a was a brutal and criminal regime.
Many italians died, went to prison or escaped abroad when Mussolini took power and in the same way the regime acted with the italian colonies.
The invasion of Ethiopia was an act of war and the italian army used even gas to defeat the Ethipians: a war crime.
Many Ethiopian partisan died defending their Country and the same happened in Libia, where many "rebels" were executed.
But.....who cared, after all they were only negroes and arabs, perhaps was there anybody complaining for the indians or the algerinians... Italy was having the "empire" just like England or France....
Only during the war the italians realized that the dream sold them by Mussolini was just a nightmare and the regime collapsed....in the end Mussolini was sentenced and executed by italian partisans and not by an allied court.
It is true that today some italians still believe he was a great leader, but they are (and have always been) a minority.
Remember that the neo/post fascist party leaded by mr. Fini has never gained in the elections more than 10% of the votes and today even Fini has totally changed his policy, admitting Mussolini's crimes and the full value of democracy, which is the only value we must defend against (using your words) "extremsim without reason and control of a state"....
Come on John, in the end we've found something to agree with:)

notaio... have enjoyed this thread and have welcomed your informed viewpoint... as i said before one day when not too busy arguing with you will read your reccomended book... thankyou for an interesting and informing few days...

Musso & Ethiopia
Well said everybody. I totally agree. Much to our shame too - we closed our eyes to a lot of things didn't week. Surely the angels did weep.

love history, and there was a lot here,new to me.nor do i want to ignore it or
turn morbid, but whats changed?the world is a huge place and its never been
majority rule,just the stronger dictating to the weaker.it is sad,but don't see
that changing,not in our near future.......

[QUOTE=giovanni]love history, and there was a lot here,new to me.nor do i want to ignore it or
turn morbid, but whats changed?the world is a huge place and its never been
majority rule,just the stronger dictating to the weaker.it is sad,but don't see
that changing,not in our near future.......[/QUOTE]

Giovanni, you're right and there will always be a criminal leader trying to impose his ideas.
But let's consider some good news too....dictatorships are decreasing in the world (see S. America and E. Europe) and even we all.....60 years ago our parents (or grand-parents) were killing each others on the bettlefields, now we can share friendship, talking of the nearest IKEA or the better risotto.... things can go better:) :)

[LEFT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I think all of the issues discussed here matter enormously and we cannot ignore or underestimate the impact that political and religious institutions have on our lives, wherever we live, or choose to live, in the world today.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]No one can deny, moreover, that the modern world is full of political and or spiritual leaders letting us down. But is it correct to infer that the “[COLOR=black]recent phenomenon of extreme violence between the two sides” prevails only in Italy? [/COLOR]Countless examples are endlessly repeated through every aspect of the histories of most of the civilisations we know, which serve to illustrate that this is not so. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Prior to unification, Italy consisted of a collection of relatively small, yet often-quarrelling states, rarely free from war or foreign domination. In fact, Italy had not known political union for at least 1500 years. Given today’s political divisions, is it any wonder that we can’t achieve a united Italy, or united Europe for that matter?[/FONT][/SIZE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]There have always been instances where various movements have collided with each other and what we are looking at, in this particular case, is divisive politics. The right continues to blame the left and vice versa. Political ideology is being replaced by undemocratic behaviour to the detriment of the real and incessant problems that continue to plague the country. So what’s new?[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Without prejudice to Catholics, even Christendom has its contradictions and still possesses a somewhat ambiguous ideology and autocratic doctrine. Much of this stems from the unfortunate legacy of the Middle Ages when the church imposed a regime of abstemious piety upon the common people, yet being morally corrupt itself.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The debate regarding Mussolini is also an interesting one, but I think we should avoid the pitfalls where personal prejudices are strong and have a tendency to colour our attitudes. He was, unquestionably, a controversial character; a left-wing, ambitious and opportunistic revolutionary among other things, and he certainly dispensed with democracy, but he was also intelligent and a realist and we have to remember that he came to office not via an armed and bloody siege, but through a constitutional process where the King, supported by the liberal establishment, invited Mussolini to become Prime Minister. [/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Despite all of his faults and failings, there is no denying that Mussolini was successful in some areas and did achieve some good things for Italy. But I guess that the biggest paradox of all, just like the power of Icarus’s wings gave rise to the abandon that so doomed him, is that Mussolini’s greatest asset led to his own demise.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]With regards to Ethiopia, my grandfather was involved in that campaign and I wish that I could travel back in time to have a one-to-one with him (he died in 1972) in order to get his views and sentiments. Again. I think we need to examine the course of events that gave rise to Italy’s conquest of Ethiopia, or Abyssinia as it was known to us Brits (Italy had already attempted, upon the encouragement of Britain, and failed to conquer Ethiopia in 1896 when Mussolini was only 13 years old). Paradoxically, Mussolini, unlike Hitler whom he disliked and considered an enemy, had no real desire to conquest Europe, so why make a move on this small piece of a medieval-like fiefdom in Africa? Why would he risk isolation from Britain and France?[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]I tend to agree with Professor Norman Stone’s view that Mussolini and Hitler “were thrown together by British obstinacy”. I am also of the opinion that there is no easy answer to this conundrum, but Britain’s prejudices, along with the league of nation’s inability to diffuse the situation at the time, played a critical role in creating the political disagreements that led to Mussolini’s complete [I]volta faccia[/I] that would eventually draw him that much closer to Nazi Germany.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]In view of this, I do not agree with, and therefore rebuke FrancisM’s comments that “[I]t[/I][I][COLOR=black]he Italian dictator did not need that little bugger from Austria to get things going. After all, he went into Ethiopia long before the Austrian started his copycat campaign”[/COLOR][/I], especially when Hitler’s Nazi regime already began its reign of terror (without prejudice to any current German members or viewers of Forum) back in 1933, some two years before Italy conquered Ethiopia.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Returning to the contemporary political scene in Italy, in light of the many failures of preceding governments, I am not entirely convinced that the left will be any better than Berlusconi’s premiership. Assuming that Prodi wins this time around, I can envisage myself in five years time going through the same list of problems as that offered by Notaio. P[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]oliticians need to recognise their weaknesses and limitations and do their utmost to compensate for any inadequacies that could spell further political and economic disaster for Italy. Having said that, whoever does take the helm will be in a rather unenviable position (the dirty job as it were) and I am inclined to support Professor Paul Ginsborg’s view therefore, that:[/SIZE][/FONT]

[I][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]“it is all too easy to attribute to the political classes, both of the left and of right, the sole responsibility for the failures of a state or society, In the last analysis, the strength of a democracy in a single country does not depend only upon the capability or the integrity of its ruling élite, but also upon the culture of its families and the energy of its citizens.”[/SIZE][/FONT][/I]

Very well written Charles.
Politicians are (almost) always the mirror of their country.
People like to consider them worste than the society they rule, but this is often an alibi in order to acquit people's responsability and social sloth.

Charles, what you describe as obstinacy is perhaps the price one has to pay for the privilege of having a parliamentary democracy. The Hoare-Laval Pact was drafted by the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Samuel Hoare and the French Prime Minister, Pierre Laval for the partitioning of Ethiopia, as a means of ending the Italo-Ethiopian War. It aimed to satisfy the demand by Mussolini that the independent nation of Abyssinia (as Ethiopia was then called) become an Italian colony.

According to the Pact, Italy would have gained the best parts of Ogaden and Tigrè, and economic influence over all the southern part of Ethiopia. Ethiopia itself would have had a guaranteed corridor to the sea, until the port of Assab. Mussolini was ready to agree with this but the plan was leaked and denounced as a sell-out of the Abyssinians by a French newspaper.

After that the British parliament (probably swayed by public opinion) refused to ratify the pact and both Hoare and Laval were forced to resign. You might regard this as obstinacy but parliament thought it a bad deal that favoured Italy too much. This kind of upset could not have taken place in a dictatorship and may have been what convinced Mussolini that he was better off aligned with fellow dictatorships and not with parliamentary democracies. At any rate Mussolini's contention that one should never trust the English stems from this apparent volta-face.

I don't have very deep knowledge of all the Italian politic sector so since mid '90s I've had only one opionon about the current leader: in general no western democratic (or calling itself this) country should have as a leader a person who owns private TV sector, some printed media, huge commercial interests, even how good or bad the person would be.

All the points here have been good about all the sides and thanks guys for the trouble to type very enlighing info!

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Interesting points Stanley.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]What I find particularly fascinating is that both Britain and France had already extended their empires along with their influence as it were, and then came Mussolini some 40 years later to acquire his own African empire, only to find that colonialism was starting to go out of fashion. [/FONT][/SIZE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Another thing is that the collapse of Hoare-Laval Pact in 1935 seemed to have a negative impact on the Stresa front against Germany, which too had collapsed. Moreover, since he now faced sanctions, I guess Mussolini felt betrayed by both France and Britain and concluded that it was time to change sides.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Interestingly, however, Germany wasn’t even providing Mussolini with any backing on this whatsoever. Again, what I find fascinating is that not only had Hitler been providing arms to the [I]Negus, [/I]he had also offered arms and warplanes to Britain. Would the French parliament for example, think it a bad deal that favoured Britain too much if such an offer were to be accepted? [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]At the same time, Germany was neither imposing sanctions on Italy nor telling Mussolini what to do. We could infer from this perhaps that Hitler was playing a calculated game, whereas Mussolini was allowing his bruised ego to cloud his better judgement and thus play the game using German cards. I suspect he felt that he could deal with his so-called friends who betrayed him by threatening an alliance with Hitler, whom he really despised. Add to this the fact that Mussolini wasn’t into democracy then I suppose you could say he would be better off joining forces with another dictatorship, although I’m not really convinced this is what made him change sides.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Whatever the case, we shall probably never know the whole story. [/SIZE][/FONT]

Charles,

My point was that it was most probably public opinion which moved the British parliament to nulify the Hoare-Laval pact. Italian public opinion was not a factor because Mussolini could do whatever he wanted. You are right to say that colonialism had gone out of fashion partly driven by American public opinion but I think by that time the British Empire was already more of a burden than anything else and would have ebbed away in any case.

[QUOTE=Panteric]I don't have very deep knowledge of all the Italian politic sector so since mid '90s I've had only one opionon about the current leader: in general no western democratic (or calling itself this) country should have as a leader a person who owns private TV sector, some printed media, huge commercial interests, even how good or bad the person would be....
[/QUOTE]

Hmmm given the pro-government line of most of the BBC's programmes in the UK, I wonder if it is at all possible at this day & age to have a government that doesn't try to control the media (and thus influence the majority of the population) to its advantage... admitted, Berlo's way ahead in actually owning his stations & papers rather than 'just' manipulating them...

Luckily, some long-established BBC programmes still dare criticise where necessary but they're few & far between.

Are any Mediaset channels at all critical of their master's actions? Or do they just toe the line?

Stephanie

Stephanie,

I thought the corporation were seething with rage over the David Kelly affair and its aftermath. From what you say, I must have missed something living in Italy - although I do look at the beeb website daily and sometimes listen through the web too.

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]"In view of this, I do not agree with, and therefore rebuke FrancisM’s comments that “[I]t[/I][I][COLOR=black]he Italian dictator did not need that little bugger from Austria to get things going. After all, he went into Ethiopia long before the Austrian started his copycat campaign”[/COLOR][/I], especially when Hitler’s Nazi regime already began its reign of terror (without prejudice to any current German members or viewers of Forum) back in 1933, some two years before Italy conquered Ethiopia."[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Charles,[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I was referring to the external conflict of Italy, while you are talking about Germany's internal conflicts of 1933, not exactly the same thing you surely will agree.;) [/SIZE][/FONT]

[QUOTE=sdoj]Stephanie,

I thought the corporation were seething with rage over the David Kelly affair and its aftermath. From what you say, I must have missed something living in Italy - although I do look at the beeb website daily and sometimes listen through the web too.[/QUOTE]

Yup they were for a little while... but the fuss died down very quickly! The news programmes are often biased with their pc content as not to offend anyone (who might not even be offended in the first place...). Only documentary programmes such as Panorama still dare raise uncomfortable issues. Although, I must say, they've improved a bit in the last couple of years... but they're still not as blunt as Ch4 news for example.

S

[quote=FrancisM][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]"In view of this, I do not agree with, and therefore rebuke FrancisM’s comments that “[I]t[/I][I][COLOR=black]he Italian dictator did not need that little bugger from Austria to get things going. After all, he went into Ethiopia long before the Austrian started his copycat campaign”[/COLOR][/I], especially when Hitler’s Nazi regime already began its reign of terror (without prejudice to any current German members or viewers of Forum) back in 1933, some two years before Italy conquered Ethiopia."[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Charles,[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I was referring to the external conflict of Italy, while you are talking about Germany's internal conflicts of 1933, not exactly the same thing you surely will agree.;) [/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I believe it is only different from a tactical point of view, but you can’t ignore the wider strategic and political consequences. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Your comment seems to infer that Hitler’s campaign copied Mussolini’s, whereas in reality, Hitler’s nationalist ideas, obsessive beliefs, prejudices and grand designs can scarcely be considered in isolation to Germany’s future foreign policy. All of Germany's internal conflicts were pivotal events in the build up to WW2. [/SIZE][/FONT]

I give up! You win!!!