2603 Lawyers!

£250 per hour??? I`m gobsmacked (and pleased we did it ourselves!).:eek:

[quote=AllanMason]Earlier this week, I contacted a London-based law firm that has been praised on these forums...
"We would also like to draw your attention to the fact that our fixed fee has been calculated on the assumption of an average of 8-10 hours of work to be spent on your file (this is normally required in a typical conveyancing transaction in Italy) and [B]does not include[/B] [their emphasis] any additional work that we may have to carry out in the event of resolving any legal issues or problems that may surface during the course of the transaction. The current rate for this work is £250 per hour."
My thinking at the moment is that I should forget about London-based lawyers with their high overheads and absurd fees and try instead to use my minimal connections to Italian networks to see if I can find an avvocato in Le Marche or Abruzzo who is honest, competent, English speaking and will only charge me an arm [I][B]or[/B][/I] a leg.

If anyone here can make any recommendations, they would be grateful received.

Al[/quote]

[LEFT]All I can say Al is I am one of the people who have recommended these lawyers. They charged us a fixed fee and stuck to it despite the fact that we know that much more than 8-10 hours was spent working on our property because of problems that arose. Before we chose these lawyers we got quotes from Italian based avvocati and these would have cost us both arms and both legs and there was no competition when it came to responsiveness. So the choice is yours - I hope you find an honest, competent [B]and efficient[/B] English speaking avvocato in Italy at a lower cost than the London based Italian lawyers you are referring to - but don't bet an arm or a leg on it;) [/LEFT]

Hi,
I don't think Italian based lawyers will be any less expensive. I know a London based Italian avvocato. From recommendations the fees are much more reasonable. PM me and I will send you contact details.
Sarah

[QUOTE=brendangfc][LEFT]They charged us a fixed fee and stuck to it despite the fact that we know that much more than 8-10 hours was spent working on our property because of problems that arose.[/QUOTE]

I am pleased that you feel you received good value for money. It was comments such as yours that led me to contact the firm in question and the terms you did business under were what I was expecting to be offered. I assumed that the firm had set their fixed fee based on experience of how many hours are required, on average, to deal with the normal range of transactions, some of which go smoothly and others - like yours - which do not. I assumed that the legal assistance provided to people who had problems was, in effect, being subsidised by those whose transactions happened to be trouble-free. Rather like an insurance scheme.

But those are very clearly [B]not[/B] the terms offered to me in the letter. Perhaps the firm has reviewed its billing strategies after a period when it was concentrating on building reputation and connections?

For the avoidance of any doubt: those quotes in my first post are in no way selective. There is nothing before or after that alters their meaning. There are no qualifications. They want me to agree to pay at least £2500 plus disbursements plus £250 per hour if more than 8-10 hours are required. My only question on reflection is whether the additional fees kick in after 8 hours or after 10; the letter is not clear on this point.

A very obvious question: why should any sane client accept the terms offered in my letter? It is unlikely that I will decide to have any further dealings with a firm that works in this way. But, if I did, why should I agree to this form of "fixed fee" contract as opposed to a standard hourly charging structure? If I was being billed by the hour and my purchase went smoothly, I would pay much less than £2500. If there are problems, I would pay more than £2500, but I would have also done so under this so-called "fixed fee" contract.

Al

Lawyers are the same everywhere. A flat or fixed fee does not mean that there will not be any extra charges.

The extras add up quickly.

Paper clips, faxes, photocopies etc..

[QUOTE=brendangfc][LEFT]All I can say Al is I am one of the people who have recommended these lawyers. They charged us a fixed fee and stuck to it despite the fact that we know that much more than 8-10 hours was spent working on our property because of problems that arose.

Before we chose these lawyers we got quotes from Italian based avvocati and these would have cost us both arms and both legs and there was no competition when it came to responsiveness. So the choice is yours - I hope you find an honest, competent [B]and efficient[/B] English speaking avvocato in Italy at a lower cost than the London based Italian lawyers you are referring to - but don't bet an arm or a leg on it;) [/LEFT][/QUOTE]

I agree with Brendan 100% as we have also been stuck with many problems with our purchase and our lawyers have spent almost 8 months to help us through completion. Not 8 hours. And they are the same lawyers that you are referring to (G&L)

Actually, we would have not been able to resolve the problems that arose out of our purchase (the estate agent had previously advised us to pull out of this deal because there were too many problems with it....) if Gabriel and his team would have not persisted in dealing with the Vendors/the comune and the surveyor to resolve them.

8 months down the line, and we are almost ready to exchange contracts, finally! the "fixed fee" has not been increased, although there was such a disclaimer in their terms and conditions; we have received the final bill and there were no "hidden extras" such as photocopies, and so on. One price quoted at the outset, we were aware of the disbursements (land registry searches like in the UK for example), and the bill came without any surprises.

Plus the price reduction that the lawyers secured on our property when we made an offer (although the asking price was €135K and we had agreed an offer of €127K, the lawyers managed to negotiate a further reduction of €7K and the vendors accepted a written offer of €120k in the end...) more than covers their legal fees....

It is true what Brendan says in his thread: as long as you find someone HONEST AND EFFICIENT, with a good command of English, then the choice of a good solicitor could potentially save you a lot of money and give you the reassurance that you are actually getting what you are paying for.

Maybe its true the old saying: when you pay peanuts, you get monkeys :) :)

I am probably about to instruct the people referred to in this thread. Their standard letter when it arrived stated a fixed fee of 1800+VAT. It did not mention a few things that were discussed on the phone.

I told them this and to be fair to them they have amended their letter to reflect all the points raised.

It does make me wonder why their "standard letter" has such errors. The rate of 250 is for other legal matters (divorce etc).

Hope this helps. If you have a problem talk to them and get their response in writing.

Cheers Zeb

The Smiths seem to have the right idea. I can't imagine any Italian paying out such a sum whatever the so called problems.
Having always done my own conveyancing (and helping friends do theirs) I am of the opinion that it is much quicker to do it yourself( you are not always in court or on holiday) and you do a better job. The difficulties are mostly wishful thinking and scaremongering by solicitors to protect a lucrative monopoly.

actually i have sen bills from italian lawyers for two afternoons of work that total e4000 ... about eight hours i guess... i am not a solicitor or lawyer... i regard the use of either when anyone is uncertain either of italian as a language or a procees of purchase that it is a sensible and not too costly route... i also wonder cardi how much experience you have of the italian legal and house buying procedures when you say conveyancing... is that here or the uk

You could do your own conveyancing in the UK, you do not need to use a solicitor: how many people do that? maybe 0.5%? what about the remaining 99.5%? are we all thick and idiots? maybe not!

if buying a house abroad was such a simple process, how is it possible that you read these stories about people being ripped off all the time? buying illegal houses, which then get knocked down by bulldozers? are these stories all created by lawyers and notaries who want to keep their monopoly?

[url]http://www.italymag.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=2013[/url] This article should remind you of the risks associated with foreign coutries, whether it's spain, france or italy.

The DIY route does not work for everyone, and maybe some people prefer to pay a fixed fee to a lawyer than signing documents and contracts purely because the estate agent thinks that "there should not be any problems": we have personally had a very bad experience with the estate agent, who was only interested in selling the house and getting his 3% commission; having the comfort of a lawyer who took his time to explain everything is plain simple english was the only reason why we decided to complete on our purchase, otherwise we would have long pulled out of the transaction.

And with regards to the costs, we also used Giambrone & Law, we also took much longer than the estimated 2-3 months to complete because our trullo had an illegal extension to it, but we still paid the fixed fee which we were quoted in their inital letter, excalty as brendan wrote earlier on.

This fee was a lot less than what we paid to the estate agent, who did nothing for us but finding a house. the work has been done by ourselves, the vendors, the geometra and the lawyer.

our friends used an Italian lawyer near ostuni to complete their purchase (recommended by the estate agent of course) and (1) not only they were never quoted a price when they instructed him (I think the way it works in Italy is different, because lawyers have standard tariffs rather than hourly rates) but (2) they ended up paying E7400 to buy a trullo which was worth E130,000. So I am not surprised at what adriatica just wrote.:confused:

[QUOTE=adriatica]actually i have sen bills from italian lawyers for two afternoons of work that total e4000 ... about eight hours i guess... i am not a solicitor or lawyer... i regard the use of either when anyone is uncertain either of italian as a language or a procees of purchase that it is a sensible and not too costly route... i also wonder cardi how much experience you have of the italian legal and house buying procedures when you say conveyancing... is that here or the uk[/QUOTE]

How to defend the indefensible- I have to say that £250 for a lawyer in London is a very reasonable rate - there are very high overheads for a lawyer in London and the £250 you pay someone isn't just for them, it pays the receptionist, the rates, the extraordinarily high rates of pay of secretaries, the insurance they have to take out incase you sue them etc so to do work for any less is just pointless. It is likely the firm that you mention now charge a minimum of £2,500 to open a file. When I left London last year my firm had a minimum of £5,000. The reason for this is that there are now many many checks that a law firm has to do before it can accept your money and these naturally take in many cases hours to do- so the firm needs to know that they will recover this which is also included in the hourly rate................sorry to go on, but i get fed up with constant lawyer bashing. Try getting a plumber or any professional in London and you will be appalled at the costs.
ANYWAY- why do you want to get a lawyer in England? Unless you get one that is qualified in Italian law, there is no need and I you would be better off getting a good lawyer in Italy (although this is not compulsory) , who will help you with the notaio. The problem is that the notaio is not acting in your interests and also surprisingly few of them speak English. I have close links with a law firm based in Florence that do alot of conveyancing in Tuscany for English speakers and they all speak and write very good English. Let me know if you would like their details. Like anything, if your purchase goes through without problems you shouldn't spend too much - but this is Italy so you need to budget for a few hiccoughs.
Good luck,
Lisa:)

There are two sides to every story and pros and cons of every route...
Cardi is right in saying that scaremongering goes on and, from what I have seen, most Italians do not use them. I have never come across an Italian who has used a lawyer to purchase or sell a house. I am genuinely interested to know whether anyone else has come across one or if there are any Italians in the house who can say hand on heart that they have or would use one. That said, is it wise for a foreign buyer to use one? Certainly, especially in certain situations. But I have seen one Italian lawyer, hired by a UK buyer, deliberately run round in circles and delay the purchase process to inflate their fees. The same lawyer later confessed to me that he was a bit confused as to why the UK buyer insisted on using them and also mentioned he had never had a conveyancing case before and was aware that he had probably been more of a hindrance than a help! I don't think being aware that not all lawyers do a good job and that some overcharge is "lawyer bashing". The same caution recommended everywhere on this forums should be used when choosing a lawyer or deciding whether to use one, too.
As with everything, research needs to be done and recommendations sought.
Some lawyers are an asset and godsend, and the ones mentioned in this thread seem to have had only good comments and I'm hopeful they will help people avoid some serious problems. Firstly, they are Italian lawyers, not British ones (how can a lawyer trained in the law of England and Wales can be of help in Italy? All the "International" UK lawyers do is pass on the file to an Italian associate and take a cut). Secondly, they (the aforementioned lawyers) actually specialise in conveyancing (unlike many Italian lawyers in Italy). It's looking good and if they really do charged a fixed fee then our prayers have been answered.
:-)

I agree with Lisa, £250 isn't that expensive. Even mechanics now make more than lawyers in the UK ;-)

----
All generalizations are false, including this one.
Mark Twain

Ok this is the thing:
To buy a house in Italy you do NOT need a lawyer (English, Italian or any other creed, denomination or race). The person who certifies that the property is "in order" to sell is the notaio. HOWEVER, he is not acting on your behalf, nor on behalf of the purchaser, so you cannot go to him (generally) with problems you may have or if any difficulties arise. Also, the notaio will rarely speak English, so you will at least need an interpreter and really if you are going to pay for an interpreter, then wouldn't it be better to pay a bit extra for a lawyer who speaks Italian and English, and can do the interpreting as well as giving you advice?
You WILL (if you are half way sensible) need a geometra (surveyor) but again if he/she doesn't speak English, you could find yourself stuck.
So, in my summing up, I would put it to you, that no you do not NEED a lawyer, and they will often be acting more as a go between if things go smoothly, but if the going gets tough, the tough get their own lawyer to shake things up a bit- you wouldn't buy a property at home without some legal advice that things were ok, so why on earth would you try to do it in Italy, where buying a property is a minefield.
I don't know what the rules of the forum are about recommending someone, but I can recommend [url]www.jmu.it[/url] - they are a nice group of people, have a high standard of English and are used to doing this sort of thing.
Have fun!
Lisa

[QUOTE=LisaJ]
The person who certifies that the property is "in order" to sell is the notaio. HOWEVER, he is not acting on your behalf, nor on behalf of the purchaser, so you cannot go to him (generally) with problems you may have or if any difficulties arise.[/QUOTE]
I haven't found this to be the case. The notaries I have had dealings with have been only too happy to help, from a very early stage in the process. The notary I always use for my own purchases and recommend for others has intervened from an early stage and cleared up problems before they become an issue, or dealt with them when they arise. He doesn't charge any extra for this. And I find the fact that notaries are "neutral" a plus, not a negative: sometimes a lawyer acting only in the interests of the buyer will try to twist the wording of the contract so far in the interests of the buyer that it leaves the seller vulnerable and negotiations can break down - or the seller gets a lawyer involved too and both lawyers thrash it out for hours, happily watching the minutes tick by :D
I've seen it happen, and my sister in law has worked in a legal studio in Italy for over fifteen years and she confirms that such things go on. The question to ask is: is the lawyer working in my interests or his/her own?
However, the notary is interested only in seeing the transaction come to a successful end and is not biased in any way toward one party or the other.

You are right about the language problems, however. Thanks for the link to the lawyer web page, the more choice out there the better.
S

[QUOTE=cardi]The Smiths seem to have the right idea. I can't imagine any Italian paying out such a sum whatever the so called problems.
Having always done my own conveyancing (and helping friends do theirs) I am of the opinion that it is much quicker to do it yourself( you are not always in court or on holiday) and you do a better job. The difficulties are mostly wishful thinking and scaremongering by solicitors to protect a lucrative monopoly.[/QUOTE]

It's comments like this which lead some foreign buyers to use the DYI route:
Cardo said that he is helping friends to do their conveyancing and he also feels that he does a better job than a lawyer/notary; the question to be asked here is:

1. if he gave wrong advice to one of his "friends" and they relied on it in order to buy a house, who is liable for this incorrect advice? does he have professional insurance against the risk of negligence?

2. if you had problems with your car's brakes, would you use a comptetent mechanic to fix it or would you ask your neighbour to have a look at it and see whether he can help you out?

in my opinion, most things in italy are done "through friends of the friends" and normally the estate agent is the friend of the lawyer who in turns is the friend of the geometra, who is of course the best man of the notary. if things go wrong, what "friend" do you go after?

at least, when you rely on the advice of an Italian lawyer in the UK (who is not meant to be a friend of any of the above people :D ), you know that they would be regulated by the English Law Society (so you can file a complaint with their professional body if they were incompetent) but you would also take comfort from the fact that they MUST have professional indemnity insurance, so you can always sue them in an english court and clam damages to compensate for the wrong advice.

This system here has always worked: if cardo offered you his free help with conveyancing, and some problems occurred, what options would be open for the buyers?

[QUOTE=gardahomes]As with everything, research needs to be done and recommendations sought.
Some lawyers are an asset and godsend, and the ones mentioned in this thread seem to have had only good comments and I'm hopeful they will help people avoid some serious problems. Firstly, they are Italian lawyers, not British ones (how can a lawyer trained in the law of England and Wales can be of help in Italy? All the "International" UK lawyers do is pass on the file to an Italian associate and take a cut). Secondly, they (the aforementioned lawyers) actually specialise in conveyancing (unlike many Italian lawyers in Italy). It's looking good and if they really do charged a fixed fee then our prayers have been answered.
:-)

I agree with Lisa, £250 isn't that expensive. Even mechanics now make more than lawyers in the UK [/QUOTE]

Before instructing Giambrone & Law, we contacted another firm of international lawyers (John Howells and Co) and when we received their letter of engagement, we soon realised that the file was going to be passed to an Italian firm in Florence (I think it's the same one that Lisa mentioned) and they were going to take a cut for this referral. Moreover, the price quoted for an average service was a lot more expensive than what I have been quoted by Giambrone.

I think that the idea of a fixed fee works really well for the buyers, and having a lawyer who specialises in Italian property law and conveyancing is an extra advantage because you would get the extra peace of mind that someone is only looking after your own interests. if you are spengind over £80-100K to buy a house in a foreign country, the extra fee of £2-3K is very reasonable from my point of view.

I think Cardi was just trying to point out that Italians don't use lawyers to buy property. He's not wrong. I don't use a lawyer either when buying Italian property, wouldn't dream of it. Nor would any of the property developers I know use one. I just hate the British "who can we blame" culture: if the purpose of using a lawyer is to have someone to sue if something doesn't go to plan then things have reached a new low.
Please don't take this as a recommendation against taking professional legal advice when buying in Italy. Just be aware that, unlike in the UK, lawyers generally don't "do" conveyancing, so be careful who you hire. :)

Conveyancing is, of course, a UK concept though I see that the lawyers in this thread do use the same word in their correspondence. In Italy you do not have the option of doing your own property purchase or sale and the notary is there to make sure the state gets its cut. The state in return indemnifies the notary to act to the benefit of buyer and seller. This is the system in most of europe. The use of an additional tier of lawyer within the system is not usual. If the notary makes an error there is state rectification within the system. If one of your costly lawyers cocks up your purchase (not uncommon in UK) what are you going to do? Who indemnifies them? As far as knowing how the system works there are books which explain it all and you should read them to know, at least, what questions to ask when they try to fob you off with jargon. If you think that by paying a big chunk to lawyers you will be safe perhaps you would like to buy a nice bridge.

[QUOTE=gardahomes]I think Cardi was just trying to point out that Italians don't use lawyers to buy property. He's not wrong. I don't use a lawyer either when buying Italian property, wouldn't dream of it. Nor would any of the property developers I know use one.

Please don't take this as a recommendation against taking professional legal advice when buying in Italy. Just be aware that, unlike in the UK, lawyers generally don't "do" conveyancing, so be careful who you hire. :)[/QUOTE]

I do not know whether Italians use or do not use lawyers when they buy their houses, but they know the system, they know the language, they know the locals in the village and therefore maybe they do their own homework, without appointing a lawyer indeed. Howver, when a foreign person buys a house in Italy, he may read several books about the process, he may receive a lot of useful information from the web (this forum is brilliant for this purpose), but he will never be able to understand the system in full and he will never be able to "act like the Italians": we are not Italians.

There is a basic misconception here, which is the basis of this dispute: [B][FONT="Century Gothic"][COLOR="Red"]if an Italian was buying a house in the UK, would he use a solicitor?[/COLOR][/FONT][/B]

Of course he would, because he may speak hardly any English, he may not have a clue about the house buying process in England and therefore he would use an English lawyer (preferably who speaks Italian) to guide him through the process.

Same goes for English when buying a house abroad: the question to ask is not whether a local person would use a lawyer in his country but whether he would use an independent legal adviser if he bought a house in a foreign country. My guess is that Italians would say yes.

Comparing Brits buying in Italy with Italians buying in Italy is wrong because the 2 categories are not on the same playing field; if you asked any Italian, instead, whether they would use a solicitor to buy ABROAD, then you may find that they would definitely seek independent legal advice.

I am not defending the category of lawyers, but many "senior" users on this forum (Charles Josephs for a start, who has been repeating the same points for months and months now....) have already warned against the risks of the DIY conveyancing and the risks of relying the estate agent's advice when completing a purchase, but at the end of the day everyone is free to follow their instinct and proceed how they think it's best.

[QUOTE=cardi]
If the notary makes an error there is state rectification within the system. Who indemnifies then? .[/QUOTE]

being interested part in this thread, i'm not going to add my opinion.
I already did it in the past, so if someone wants to know my point of view can find what i posted before in this section of the forum.
Only one specification.
If there's an error in the contract (wrong data, hidden mortgages etc) the notary is personally liable for and must indemnify.
He has no responsability about the thecnical side, of course, since he's not a geometra or engineer, nor is responsable if the house has an (illegal) extra room never showed in the maps, because he works on documents and doesn't visit the house, but i don't think a lawyer do it too.

Laura:
I am in full agreement with you: but "knowledge is power" (can we make that the motto of the forums, along with "buyer beware"?? ;-) and UK buyers should know what the local system is as much as possible so they can choose the right professionals. Personally I think knowing that in Italy very, very few lawyers deal in real estate transactions, as confirmed by our own notaio on the forum, is extremely important, and makes the buyer aware that perhaps not all lawyers in Italy are experienced enough to handle them fully. They should also be aware that the International lawyers out there simply hand over the file to an Italian studio and add a markup. They also charge, from what I've heard and seen, a 1000% markup on searches they do on the internet, which anyone with an internet connection can do. I believe that there are some lawyers targeting UK buyers deliberately and taking advantage of the confusion between the two systems, and overheard a conversation held in Italian between two lawyers specialising in this area at a trade fair which confirmed my suspicions.

Pre-emption issues are another matter and never, ever, believe an estate agent who says "it won't be a problem". Why not do as the Italians do, smile and nod, then go and do your own checks, with or without a lawyer's help.
:)

Please, everyone, read what notaio has to say carefully, in all threads, as he is the ONLY person qualified on this forum to give advice on the legal issues of buying in Italy and so far seems to have given a totally impartial, correct picture of the way things work.

[QUOTE=gardahomes]Laura:
I am in full agreement with you: but "knowledge is power" (can we make that the motto of the forums, along with "buyer beware"?? ;-) and UK buyers should know what the local system is as much as possible so they can choose the right professionals. Personally I think knowing that in Italy very, very few lawyers deal in real estate transactions, as confirmed by our own notaio on the forum, is extremely important, and makes the buyer aware that perhaps not all lawyers in Italy are experienced enough to handle them fully. They should also be aware that the International lawyers out there simply hand over the file to an Italian studio and add a markup. :) [/QUOTE]

Garda, I agree with you 100%: it is true that finding an Italian real estate lawyer who speaks Italian and English and specialises in this area is a very difficult thing to do. Many notaries and geometras dont speak English either, which cause further problems when communicating with them.

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]You are still missing the point Sarah, you understand the system and I take it you can speak the language for those of us that don't or are still learning can you explain to me how we would do our own checks. How are we supposed to know what we have to do to get through the whole buying process. It is not as simple as doing a bit of research, it is far more complicated. [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]I have great respect for Notaio but there is a difference between his knowledge that covers only one part of the process and Charles who not only has knowledge of the whole process, has helped many Brits who have run into complications and works with an Italian lawyer that covers all technical/building and rights issues as well. [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]Would a Notary take time to flush out inaccuracies from an agent or geometra?[/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]So please can you tell, who are we supposed to go to get through this if it is not a recommended lawyer.[/COLOR][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]

Trulli,

Isn't it becoming evident from the tens of thousand of words expended on this subject that:

a) Italians don't usually use lawyers when buying a house;

b) Notaios often don't speak English;

c) Estate agents are not to be trusted too much;

d) there is a resultant gap for new services that Sarah (Gardahomes) and Charles Joseph are filling quite nicely.

:confused:

[quote=sdoj]Trulli,

Isn't it becoming evident from the tens of thousand of words expended on this subject that:

a) Italians don't usually use lawyers when buying a house;

b) Notaios often don't speak English;

c) Estate agents are not to be trusted too much;

d) there is a resultant gap for new services that Sarah (Gardahomes) and Charles Joseph are filling quite nicely.

:confused:[/quote]

Urm, well yes sort of.
[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]a) Correct[/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]b) Notaries only cover one part of property purchase[/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]c) Some agents[/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]d) Services and knowledge are two different things. Sarah has not been on here long enough for me to know the full range of her knowledge. (No disrespect to you Sarah as I'm sure with time you will enlighten us more)[/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]

once again i do not want to seem partisan, but it is interesting to read what I found in the "career" section of the web site of a uk based law firm, dealing with italian properties.
"[I]We are currently looking for an Italian lawyer able to handle a broad mix of work types for clients who have come to expect a high quality, commercially driven service. Our firm has an unrivalled breadth of experience and excellence in service delivery and we are currently recruiting for Real Estate and Taxation Lawyers for our Developers, Planning Investors, Occupiers and Real Estate Finance Teams.

You will be fluent in both English and Italian and will have at least three years of experience with a solid background in property work [B](a previous work experience in a Public Notary Office would be an advantage). [/B][/I]

It seems to me that this confirms the point (that I've already stressed) that in Italy there aren't so many lawyers with real experience in real estate transaction, otherwise why that law firm is looking for former notaries' employees?
Are these lawyers stealing money ?
Of course no: they can be really [B]helpful and necessary [/B]to protect the buyer from the misunderstandings related to the italian legal system, but I still think it is a waste of money if they do, with less experience, the same job a notary will do in any case.

You are very right notaio, a lawyer that doesn't understand Italian real estate transaction would be a complete waste of money and equally a waste of money if they do not work through the whole process of property purchase which is outside a Notaries remit.

The service required for a foreign buyer is far greater than the norm.

As usual our resident notary speaks the most common sense plus having the legal expertise to qualify his statements.
I think this is really just about some people being SOLD a product which they do not need but which in some way gives them peace of mind (however misguided). There are english style agents in all european countries selling this middle man service to some brits who seem happy to pay and if they can afford it let them pay, the rest of us will continue to control our own affairs.

[quote=cardi]As usual our resident notary speaks the most common sense plus having the legal expertise to qualify his statements.
I think this is really just about some people being SOLD a product which they do not need but which in some way gives them peace of mind (however misguided). There are english style agents in all european countries selling this middle man service to some brits who seem happy to pay and if they can afford it let them pay, the rest of us will continue to control our own affairs.[/quote]

Cardi, I would like to know how a notary would have helped us through our situation and how we could control our own affairs if we don't understand the rules. It was these middle men/woman/agent that were causing us the problem in the first place. So back to my question, who do we go to get help?

Trullo, there can be no doubt that you did the right thing in getting a lawyer involved. Undoubtedly had you hired the lawyer in the first place you could have avoided the problems you did encounter. I don't think it's midguided to want extra protection, over and above what a local would use, when you don't know the language or the system, and never having been in that situation myself I can only imagine how terrifying it must be.
There is some interesting reading on the notariato.it site in Italian on the role, responsibilities and liabilities of the notary. The English 'version' is totally different to the Italian section of the site so as soon as I have a moment I'll post a translation.

Sarah
“Tanto più notaio, tanto meno giudice” - Carnelutti

Thank you Sarah, I look forward to understanding more.
ciao ciao (this is the level of my italian :))

i guess what one might well have to understand that an italian family...generally has there own family geometra that helps out with things... the relationship often going back over generations and they are used for all checking and land /property problems... plus anything else that comes along...eg purchasing a new or additional property

for instance my father in law.. a geometra checked all the paperwork on our house ...and if he had been unable another family geometra would have done the job for us...

so for foreign buyers this long term relationship...network of informal help does not exist... the payed lawyer being the only secure option...

so i think its untrue to say italians do not have legal advice....its just its not a trade or apparent to those who have not had a life time here... but in fact an additional help from the family geometra... who knows all the regulations...valuations ...technical specs and can read property paperwork like a book... in fact almost a specialist conveyancing lawyer/surveyor combined... but only for italians

[QUOTE=adriatica]
so i think its untrue to say italians do not have legal advice....its just its not a trade or apparent to those who have not had a life time here... but in fact an additional help from the family geometra... who knows all the regulations...valuations ...technical specs and can read property paperwork like a book... in fact almost a specialist conveyancing lawyer/surveyor combined... but only for italians[/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone has said in this thread that Italians don't get legal advice: what was said was that they don't use lawyers when buying or selling property. The legal advice comes from the notaio "di fiducia" and technical advice from the "geometra di fiducia".

An interesting debate even though I fear it is sterile in the sense it will not produce a universally acceptable answer. Having said that! ....... our own approach to the question was one of risk management. We did not know the answers to the many questions which we had and did not have the confidence that we could find our way through labrynthine laws to arrive at a secure answer. Or even have the time at home and in Italy to do the research. We thought we knew the answers to pre-emption, to building conformity, rights of way, local plans for development etc etc. But we also figured that some sellers/agents see overseas purchasers as fair game. So we mitigated our risks and used JH. But we did not instruct them to carry out the checks the notaio would anyway perform (which would have cost us extra to the fixed fee - they are very expensive).

Relying on the notaio was an option, but we figured it was worth the expense of JH to have a clear idea of risk before we paid the caparra. Our previous experiences of 2 abortive purchases have proved the worth of this approach so we had no hesitation in adopting the same strategy for this (successful) deal.

We are satisfied as we believe we will not face any unpleaseant (i.e. expensive) shocks from the Comune for irregularities with the property, rights of way issues or pre-emption claims or any of many other problems which some vendors and agents are, understandably, likely to minimise or omit to mention.

If you feel lucky, have a combination of personal knowledge and alternative support or, just like a gamble then I guess you won't see an avvocato as necessary. But 3% (ish) of purchase price may be a small additonal cost to secure your dreams and help the more risk averse sleep comfortably.

I agree that this is an interesting debate and everyone will adopt a different strategy according to how risk-adverse they are.

Trullo's situation is not un-common here, many users have posted about going through problems and delays during their purchases, some of us do not fully trust the estate agents to provide impartial advice because they are in a clear position of conflict of interest: no sale would lead to no lucrative commission.

Adriatrica's remarks are also very appropriate: Italians do get legal and technical advice when they buy a house but it's not done through the formal appointment of a lawyer: they rather seek advice from the family friend. Foreign people do not have the same level of connections with the local community, this is why we need to obtain independent legal advice so that someone is able to explain to us how the purchase is going and if there are any problems that we may need to be aware of.

The notaio does not deal with all the aspects of the conveyancing, just the final ones: a lawyer may be able to advise you on all aspects of "moving to Italy", tax issues (and put you in touch with an accountant), issues with restoration and so on.

I could understand the nature of this debate if we were arguing over whether it would be worth spending [B]several thousands of pounds [/B]in legal fees, but the fixed costs of solicitors' fees (in the UK) is about 2k (Italian lawyers in Italy charge considerably more because their tariffs are regulated by the government): surely, it's not a sum that would break the bank, considering the value of the investment, and it's less than estate agent's commission in any event.

Secondly, consensus in the forum is that SPECIALIST lawyers that specialise in Italian property rather than contacting any Italian avvocato who may not even dealt with real estate before! :)

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca]You are very right notaio, a lawyer that doesn't understand Italian real estate transaction would be a complete waste of money and equally a waste of money if they do not work through the whole process of property purchase which is outside a Notaries remit.

The service required for a foreign buyer is far greater than the norm.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more with this statement!

There is a clear gap in the market for QUALIFIED people who act as property consultants and, even though they are not licensed estate agents, they advice foreign buyers about the whole process. This is why companies such as Magical Marche, Garda Homes or Vita Properties exist and lot of Brits use them: it is worth paying an extra bit of money, they know the market inside out, they can recommend an independent lawyer and geometra/architect, and are always there to help you with any problems/doubts/queries you may have.

In my opinion, having a consultant like the ones I have just mentioned and an a lawyer who checks that everything is in order with the property, the land, the extensions on the house and so on, is the best option to ensure that everything will proceed according to plans without unpleasant surprises.

Just like to add and I know it has been said before, but having been through what we have, go to a [U]recomended [/U]consultant/middleman/agent because the one we found, was not on recomendation and gave us the biggest headache ever!

..trullo ... might not work... the problem is often that people will say someone is good ... on here... because they smile and are friendly...see buying in abruzzo thread... and yet all of us that have been on here a fair while and seen robs posts and followed his trials and tribulations know that smiles and friendly attitudes do not a straight deal make... how do you regulate positive postings that most of us might think should not be quite as confident in the reccomendations... especially and i can see why you cannot answer these in the public forum.... and before i get into big arguements or offend without meaning too... most of the real balanced reccomendations in this thread i agree with because from being here a fair while i have learnt to respect those offering it as both proffesional and helpful

Hi all

There seems to be consensus of opinion on this thread that the notary "does not deal with all the aspects of the conveyancing, just the final ones”. If you read the official website of Italian notaries [url]www.notariato.it[/url] (in Italian, not the English version) - the message is very clear: notaries are there specifically to make the purchase process as risk-free as possible from the get-go, even from the offer stage.

In the paragraph on the "proposta di acquisto", they state:

"[I]Per questi motivi è importante, prima di apporre la propria firma su un qualsiasi documento riguardante la compravendita di un immobile, consultare il notaio. Egli saprà darvi tutte le informazioni necessarie sulla natura del documento da firmare e sul contenuto del documento, al fine di evitarvi spiacevoli sorprese." [/I]
translation - "For these reasons, before signing any document to do with the purchase of property, it is important to consult a notary. He or she will be able to give you all the information you need concerning the type of document you are to sign and explain its content, with the aim of helping you avoid unpleasant surprises".

When discussing the "contratto preliminare" they state:

[I]"E' consigliabile allora, sin da questo momento, rivolgersi al notaio ancora prima della firma del contratto preliminare di compravendita (il cosiddetto compromesso)." [/I]
translation: "therefore it is advisable to consult a notary even before you sign the preliminary contract (also known as the compromesso)."

Then, still dealing with the preliminary contract…

[I]“Con il suo intervento il notaio, riversa su entrambe le parti, in posizione di imparzialità (a garanzia quindi anche del futuro venditore stesso) la sua preparazione giuridica, consigliando le migliori soluzioni per la fattispecie concreta effettuando tutti i controlli e le verifiche del caso (comunque necessarie in previsione del successivo contratto definitivo), redigendo egli stesso il contratto preliminare ed in tal modo talvolta anche conciliando e mediando, ove possibile, le divergenti posizioni delle parti.
Quantunque oggi, quindi, sia alquanto frequente che le agenzie immobiliari oltre a svolgere la consueta attività di mediazione, curino anche la redazione e la stipulazione del contratto di compromesso, appare in genere consigliabile prima rivolgersi al notaio di fiducia per il cui ministero ci si avvarrà per il contratto definitivo, al fine di ottenere dallo stesso, previa esibizione della minuta del contratto preliminare da sottoscrivere, tutte le informazioni ed i suggerimenti del caso, come sopra evidenziati.[/I]

translation: "From an impartial position (thereby protecting the future seller also), the notary provides both parties with the benefit of his or her legal training, advising on the best solutions for the specific case and carrying out all necessary checks and verifications (which would be necessary in any case for the subsequent final contract), personally drafting the preliminary contract and sometimes also reconciling and bringing together, where possible, the divergent positions of the parties.
Therefore, although it is now usually the estate agent who provides the service of mediation, and also drafts the preliminary contract and oversees its signing, in this case it is still advisable to first consult the notary you plan to use for the final contract, to show him or her a draft of the preliminary contract to be signed and obtain all necessary information and advice, as described above.”

The site goes on to explain that they are allowed to provide independent consulting services (the site explains why a notary is as "independent" as legal services get and why this is a positive, not a negative, as their aim is to [I]avoid [/I]litigation) and, on request, can provide "technical" checks (I imagine in this case, what they would do is exactly what the international lawyers do: hire a geometra to do a survey, then get a written statement on headed, stamped paper by the geometra certifying no illegal building work etc etc). If there are problems the notary will, as mine did in a recent case, clearly explain which problems need to be solved before completion and outline the steps to be taken through the relevant professionals. (While our notary didn't, obviously do work that should be done by a geometra or architect, he did personally make sure everything had been done to his total satisfaction before completion, all at no extra charge whatsoever, despite many phone calls and face-to-face meetings).

Anyway, I get the feeling that this wonderful resource is being under-used and perhaps this is due to the confusion between the two systems and confusion over the true role and qualifications of the notary.

However, it is clear that language difficulties may be a serious problem, and also if you are working from the UK and can't trust your agent or "middleman" :D then clearly a UK based, Italian lawyer with a fixed fee is the way to go. What price peace of mind?

Sarah

[quote=adriatica]..trullo ... might not work... the problem is often that people will say someone is good ... on here... because they smile and are friendly...see buying in abruzzo thread... and yet all of us that have been on here a fair while and seen robs posts and followed his trials and tribulations know that smiles and friendly attitudes do not a straight deal make... how do you regulate positive postings that most of us might think should not be quite as confident in the reccomendations... especially and i can see why you cannot answer these in the public forum.... and before i get into big arguements or offend without meaning too... most of the real balanced reccomendations in this thread i agree with because from being here a fair while i have learnt to respect those offering it as both proffesional and helpful[/quote]

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]You are right Adriatica, there is still a risk even with recommendations, hopefully multiple recommendations would help. I have to say that I did see one recommendation on here about the agent we have had so much trouble with. Not a lot I could do about it and the thing is, different situations produce different outcomes. I also think that there is an element of naivety that the agents take advantage of. If the buyer doesn't ask the right questions or doesn't even know the right questions and basically just goes with the flow, then it's easy for the agent and all the smiles remain. We asked too many questions and didn't get the right answers, hence they turned out not to be the nice friendly agent we first believed. [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]It’s all very tricksy but still worth it in the end [/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]

[LEFT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]A lot of will depend upon the specific circumstances of the purchase of course, but you will need to bear in mind that there is no such thing as a standard purchase, especially when you are dealing with rural properties and their inherent problems.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Whether Italians use solicitors or not in the house purchase process is irrelevant. The point is that people need to be aware of the potential risks and manage them. There are many professional real estate agencies that are more than capable (and indeed qualified) of handling and solving complex issues. But like most things in life, nothing is never that simple and I have lost count of the number of times that I have been asked to look over a proposta d’acquisto or preliminary contract, only to find that something has either been missed out or is contractually misleading. This is all because of the DIY culture and DIY conveyancing is, in my opinion, extremely foolish. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Obviously the Notaio, being an independent legally trained professional with public functions, provides, among other things, a kind of warning function as it were because he/she must ensure that the parties fully understand the legal consequences of the transaction. However, the burden of responsibility still rests with the buyer. There are cases where purchases have gone pear shaped because certain checks were not carried out in the first place. No one is infallible and there are still gaps in the system. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]This does not mean to say that all solicitors are experienced in such matters. Some even create more problems. But there will be situations where a good solicitor becomes indispensable. He/she can stop a buyer from making a potentially expensive mistake.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Sarah, simply regurgitating words from the Notariato web site is not enough, however useful this resource may be. It is not always practical to seek out a Notary right at the start of the process. Many people continue, in fact, to be lulled into a false sense of security and sign documents (not forgetting the money that is handed over) that are legally binding without even knowing what their contractual obligations or liabilities are. [/SIZE][/FONT]

Every person who has mastered a profession is a skeptic concerning it." and
"All professions are conspiracies against the laity."

Now a lot has changed since his time but the central tenet is still true today.

Professions are usually monopolistic and often operate as cartels and their organising bodies campaign with great effect to avoid competition. Does anyone remember the furore by barristers in the U.K. when it was proposed that solicitors be granted rights of audience?

But that is not all they are ...at best they are a guarantee of quality with an efficient and fair complaints and compensation policy in the event of wrongdoing.

Bernard Shaw was referring specifically to the traditional professions of, Medicine, Law and the Church ... sometimes referred to as the "Unholy Trinity" and I am not sure that he would have considered estate agency a profession at all.

I believe that there exist complimentary services that fall outside the "professional" arena but are worthwile in themselves and a case in point has to be in the need to fill the language and understanding gaps between the systems that operate for property transactions between countries. Most professionals are not able to bridge this divide.

Some forum members regard employing an Anglo-Italian law firm excessive to fill this gap and are content with a "non-professional" service as some of our dear forum members provide - others consider the protection of a home based professional the minimum that they require and others decide to do it the Italian way. This is a choice purchasers must make and the debate on this forum will aid many in making the choice.

This debate could have been a lot more interesting had the European Union included the "country of origin" provision in their Directive on Services (aka "Bolkestein Directive") but they decided not to make Europe a true free Trade zone.

Perhaps they made the right decision - could you imagine buying a home in country A whilst resident in country B from an estate agent whose governing body was in country C and was not bound by the relevant laws of either country A or B but instead by the laws of country C?

But until this is possible and the majority of the European population would feel comfortable with cross border transactions - John's "European Passport" doesn't amount to more than a hill of beans.

the regurgitation :p was to make a simple point: that most, if not all, notaries are willing and certainly able to provide qualified legal advice and protection from an early stage, as confirmed by notaio on this forum. Some people seem to have the impression this is not so.

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Any practitioner or student of jurisprudence will tell you that the law is a matter of considerable controversy. As in any professions, there will always be disagreements, but the “we don’t it here” school of thought is not really a convincing argument.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I agree with you that most people seem to have the wrong impression. However, I sense, as confirmed by Trullomartinafranca, that you may be missing the point. No one is saying that you shouldn’t revert to a Notary. I have always maintained, and I quote from a previous thread that: “when in doubt, seek proper, professional advice right at the beginning”. Whether one chooses a lawyer or Notary is really beside the point. What is important, however, is that buyers do not rush into making a decision that may prove to regret in the long run. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Problems do and will occur. This has nothing to do with scare mongering, the “who can we blame next” culture, nor is it a myth. It is a reality. Unlike buying a property in France for example, where there is a cooling off period of seven days after receiving a signed copy of the Compromis de Vente, no such luxury appears to exist in Italy. Therefore, the buyer must be prudent and manage the risks. I cannot overemphasise the importance of this point.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]After I posted my comments on this thread, I received an e-mail from a person who purchased a property in Umbria via a middleman. It makes pretty grim reading and provides an unequivocal signal about dealing with intermediaries. That is all I am prepared to say here, as I don’t want to be in breach of confidentiality. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]The point I wish to make is that there are far too many unscrupulous amateurs (Believe me, these people will get hot under the collar and object when you tell them that your solicitor is handling the transaction) trying to make a fast buck at the expense of the buyer and it is not always possible or practical (language barriers is one example) to find and appoint a Notary during the early stages. Moreover, I know of a complex issue where the Notary had neither the time nor the inclination to deal with it, and so it was left to a lawyer to sort out. I also read about a chap who purchased a house in Siena and ended up being lumbered with a massive debt that encumbered the property. Why didn’t the Notaio flag this up at the Rogito? This example just proves that no one is infallible and that there are gaps.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I agree that not all solicitors are able to handle such issues. It is no good going to a lawyer specialised in Canon law for example, only to find a hefty bill at the end and with you remaining no nearer to your objective.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]It is still in the buyers’ BEST INTERESTS to ensure that there are no legal snags prior to entering into a binding contract. When in doubt, it is better to obtain the independent opinion of a professional who understands both legal systems and not to leave matters in the hands of just anyone. This is not rocket science but common sense. :) [/SIZE][/FONT]

The very first time i met this forum, i decided to log in in order to explain what a notary does in a real estate purchase and this was my only goal at that time (btw, now i log in just because i like the forum ;) ).
It was evident, reading the various posts, that there was a scarce knowledge of notary's activity and comptence, considerig him/her a sort of expensive tax collector, but useless in case of legal adivice needed.
This was not strange, because in common law countries there's nothing comparable to a notary, so why should you ever understand his function in a civil law country like Italy is ?
So my aim was to make clear that a notary is essentially a highly qualified legal professional, who manages some kind of contracts (among them real estate purchases) in order to give to both parties a fair and legally valid service and protection and is able to do this (and generally he does it) from an early stage of the contract.
I also explained that, in Italy (and in other civil law countries too) people do not use lawyers when want to buy a house, except - of course - some specific cases, rapresenting a tiny minority, but entrust this matter to notaries.
This happens because a notary is perceived as a trustworthy and impartial legal adivser, may be expensive, but surely trustworthy.
As said, this was my aim, i never meant to affirm that a notary is better than a lawyer, but only that in the italian system a notary is surely competent in this field, while it isn't necessarily so for a lawyer.
Does this mean that you do not need a lawyer ?
Not necessarily, because, as Charles said, often the agencies system that lives all around the foreign buyers tends to exploit these buyers and push them to sign something as soon as possible, as Charles blamed.
Since many buyers, as showed in this forum, simply ignore the possibility to appoint a notary, they would be lost without legal assistance, so it is natural and preferable for them to have a lawyer.
But also Gardahomes is right: notaries are willing and certainly able to provide qualified legal advice and protection from an early stage.
Some people seem to have the impression this is not so, but they are wrong.

When we bought our house in Italy five years ago, we relied entirely on our Notaio for legal advice. At the time, we had already lived in Italy for a number of years and spoke Italian well enough to understand him and the legal process. The Notaio provided a complete service to us, at a much lower cost than either an agent or a lawyer, neither of which we ultimately needed. For this reason I'm in complete agreement with Notiao's comment.

The problem is that each Notaio is tied to a particular location in Italy and many (though not 'Notaio'!) don't speak a foreign language. This makes foreign buyers feel that they need the guidance of another expert, probably based in their home country and fluent in their language, when in reality all they need is ability to communicate with their Notaio. It seems to me that Notaii in general need to put their house in order by actively reaching out and offering their services to foreign clients, employing translators if necessary. They must change the parochial philosophy which underpins their profession; that local people 'in the know' will recomend a 'Notaio di fiducia' to their friends and family and those people will walk in through the door asking for their services. That just doesn't work in the global and Eurpean marketplace, as the smarter Italian estate agents are now beginning to learn. Unless Notaii advertise and explain their services and provide information through accesible web sites and printed material, they'll find that they are losing out to intermediaries who effectively just duplicate their work and charge far more than they do!

[LEFT][COLOR=black]notaio, you may well be right but the problem is very few notaries speak English as well as you, well we couldn't find one in [/COLOR][COLOR=black]Puglia[/COLOR][COLOR=black] and we did try. The other problem is to what lengths will a notary go, to help? How many of your English clients have you provided this extra service to, as described by Sarah(gardahomes). [/COLOR][/LEFT]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Right at the start before even putting in an offer facts need to be confirmed as this may reflect on what the buyer is prepared to pay for the property. In our situation back at the beginning when we were totally naive, we had found our Trullo, very small but on the land is a ruin (as described in previous posts) we were told quite categorically by the agent and the Geometra (who incidentally is part of the agent team) that this ruin could be converted for more accommodation. This clearly would make a difference to how much we were prepared to pay. At the time we believed them and put in our offer to reflect this but within a very short space of time, now that they had our signature, doubt is raised by the agent and we may have to use the route of abusive build! :( This is just one of the many trials and tribulations that we encountered. So I ask again, even if English language was not a problem, would a notary have held my hand through all these various problems and pinned the Agent/Geometra down to giving truthful facts. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]If this is the case then I suggest all notaries should learn English, have an understanding that for a non Italian speaking Brit property purchase in [/COLOR][COLOR=black]Italy[/COLOR][COLOR=black] is full of confusion and complexities. Then I agree a lawyer is not required.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black](notaio, please don't stop chatting to me in chat room, I'm just trying to explain how it is from our side of things. Baci baci :) )[/COLOR]

Please don't quote me on this because I'm only referring a comment made by our (Italian) new neighbours: apparently there is a big debate at the moment in Italy about the role of public notaries and their social utility, with many Italians thinking that they are too expensive for the type of work they do?

I have also heard that the profession of Notary is being reviewed by the Government because Italians feel that Notaries operate in monopolistic environment and the market should be "open" to other professionals such as solicitors etc. (which are normally cheaper than notaries).

Is this true (reform of the whole system on the way....) or just a gossip?

I don't know about Notaios in general but I know one lovely man who does a lot of pro-bono work and is patient, kind and considerate even when he appears in a minority of one.

He seems to have picked up the English language effortlessly and even likes a chat now and again at the bar ... offers to buy the first round of drinks even.

Three cheers for il Notaio... hip... hip... HURRAH !

italian lover... this is quite true... and is uneder discussion and will most probably be discussed more providing the right get elected at the next election.... if the left wins everything will go several steps backwards as regards taking some of the monopolised civil law roles out ... ie we have only just been allowed here last year to buy a car without a notary...

however i also agree with sdoj about the resident notary, i feel sometimes that he takes personally everything i post on the role of the notary, i guess rightly so, its his job, but there has to be a more efficient and competitive way of working. If only all notaries had his english and sense of humour and frankly honesty.