2777 france running scared

[QUOTE=adriatica]... yep the french are up in arms ... and really this time i cannot blame them...
why

ENEL they are threatening to take over some of the french power supply comapanies How on earth can they do this ? I think i might be responsible for a quarter of the bid having just received the last bills for electricity and gas this winter.

and soon they might even head into the uk ... i know telecom italia have expanded and want to go further...

will there be no escape[/QUOTE]

Ooooh! That's totally unacceptable! Someone daring to take advantage of the 'open' French electricity markets.

Anyone gues what EDF stands for? Yep, Electricite De France. Now own all of what used to be London, Southern and Eastern Electricity.

As for whether I can blame them this time, yes Ican. It would appear the common market is daring to stop nationalised french industries expanding, so it's time to block the ports, get the farmers to block the motorways and burn the local witches.

It's an open market, just! Under European law, it should have been open fully over ten years ago. The open markets have been exploited by countries such as France whilst maintaining their own self protectionist policies.

Andy

RIGHT ON Andy...:)

The reason why our ENEL bills are so high is that the citizens of Italy took the bold step a few years ago of renouncing nuclear power; at least to the extent of refusing to allow nuclear power stations on Italian soil. As well as leaving us with the highest utility bills in Europe, it also leaves us in the position of having to buy electricity from perfidious France which has lots of surplus electricity generated by nuclear power. Whether that is morally sustainable, I don't know, but I guess ENEL's philosophy is that if we're buying power from the French, we might as well buy the power companies themselves. Of course, as you say, the French may have other ideas.

[QUOTE=Marc]Of course, as you say, the French may have other ideas.[/QUOTE]

Too right. When it comes to the EU - well, not just the EU come to think of it - the French attitude has always been 'don't do as I do, do as I tell you'. When it comes to compliance with EU law the French are bottom of the pile. And they wonder why everyone has a deep dislike of them.

They make darned good cheese though. :-)

[QUOTE=Marc]The reason why our ENEL bills are so high is that the citizens of Italy took the bold step a few years ago of renouncing nuclear power; at least to the extent of refusing to allow nuclear power stations on Italian soil. As well as leaving us with the highest utility bills in Europe, it also leaves us in the position of having to buy electricity from perfidious France which has lots of surplus electricity generated by nuclear power. Whether that is morally sustainable, I don't know, but I guess ENEL's philosophy is that if we're buying power from the French, we might as well buy the power companies themselves. Of course, as you say, the French may have other ideas.[/QUOTE]

I think people who have read my previous posts here will understand that my views around sustainable nergy are around the economics of it. Mainly that it has to be 'value for money'. Nuclear energy is cheap to produce, but the long term implications of nuclear are huge. What happens is that we pay for the production of nuclear energy, which is cheap. The companies that produce it give no thought to decommissioning and disposal of the waste. This will need to be managed for a significant time after decommissioning, perhaps for hundreds of years. The rather large French nuclear industry is building major economic difficulties for the French for years in the future.

The Italians on the other hand have very practical steps to reduce power consumption (Limitation of domestic electricity supply to 3.5kW for example) and also a cultural tendancy towards renewables (Biomass for example). The use of hydro in the north around the lakes is extensive. Also, the fault lines in Italy make geothermal a good prospect.

The issue of whether nuclear is morally sustainable will in the short to medium term become irrelevant. Whilst we should not be scaremongering and saying we are running out of oil and gas, we are having to extract gas from areas which would not otherwise be economically viable. This result in rising oil and gas prices. This makes investment in renewable such as solar, geothermal and wind more attractive to investors because the comparable technologies using oil and gas are more expensive. As technologies are used more, they get cheaper. So there will be a point, in my opinion in the not so distant future where France is left with a large nuclear power industry which isexpensive, of little use and will need to maintained through taxation for many years.

Andy

Andy, the decommissioning process is pretty much of an unknown quantity, it isn't really possible to currently come up with an accurate figure for the number of years it will take, but, I suspect the French Government will simply apply to the EU to fund the decommissioning anyway, then we can all fund it...

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]Andy, the decommissioning process is pretty much of an unknown quantity, it isn't really possible to currently come up with an accurate figure for the number of years it will take, but, I suspect the French Government will simply apply to the EU to fund the decommissioning anyway, then we can all fund it...[/QUOTE]

Refer to previous post re: self protectionism. Agree fully on us all funding it!!! Typical of a country who takes out and has little interest when an adverse affect occurs (CAP & British rebate argument).:mad:

Being realistic George, we may not know what it involves, but we know from experience, it wont be cheap and it'll take a considerable amount of time. Doesn't change the fact that it's still a short term fix that will very rapidly become un economic. If governments looked beyond the next few voting cycles, it would NEVER be considered.:rolleyes:

Andy

Andy

Oh dear! this is all very confusing ... in London and South-East England do EDF own only the billing companies or also distribution?

If the latter then the good folk of England could revolt if prices increase to pay EDF's bill for the decomissioning of nuclear plants - I am quite sure French consumers will have their prices set in stone because this is one of the assurances that was given to the trade unions at the time of partial privatisation.

Changing the subject little. Were any forum members in Italy on September 27 2004? It was when Italy's capital was holding its first official "Notte Bianca" or "Sleepless night", an idea borrowed from Paris, in which the city stays open all night.

The name literally translates as the "White Night", and it is somewhat ironic that it was brought to a premature end as the city was plunged into darkness.

At 0330 the streets were still packed with people and then the power went off. It turned out to be the worst power failure in Italian history and came just a year after the New York State blackout which was the worst in America's history and of which the European media said was of a nature that could not possibly occur on this side of the Atlantic.

We were staying with Italian friends in Camaiore that night and I was woken by an SMS message from no less a person than the Presidente del Consiglio dei Ministri - Dipartimento della Protezione Civile informing me that there was no electricity and that I was better off indoors and on no account should I venture anywhere near a train station.

When I woke again in the morning I wondered whether it had been a dream but sure enough there was no juice. It was starnge to slowly realise how dependant we are on electricity:

First of all there was no running water - never mind washing my face what about flushing the loo and finishing off on the bidet. Downstairs in the kitchen there was bottled water, a gas cooker and a Moka Express so all was not lost but did anyone have a match? Of course not!

OK, so better throw the towels in the cars and head for the beach ....."ma come si apra il cancello senza corrente".

We didn't get the power back until early afternoon but for other parts of Italy it was in to the evening.

The aftermath was interesting...the Italians blamed the French and the French balmed the Swiss who blamed the Italians. I never read anything about it but I always wondered if it wasn't the "Notte Bianca" that tilted a small problem over to being a catastrophe. All the city's lights were blazing, trams and metros were running and air conditioning was on in all the public buildings and entertainment venues at a time usually associated with low useage and white meters not white nights.

Sdoj,

Firstly, EDF own most of the electricity distribution network in the South East of the UK. Bizzarely, whilst they are difficult to deal with, they actually provide a reasonably good service. This is because they operate under historic license agreements/charters which impose very high standards of service, particularly in terms of power failures (4 hours turn around required normally).

Having worked with them in Paris, there is no favouritism here. In fact, weve got it good in terms of both cost and service.

Your other comments on power failures are a complicated issue. The over supply of electricity cause all sort of problems which can damage the supply system. As a result, we predict the amount of power required and generators contract to supply that power. As an example, one of the worst times in the UK is when Coranation Street finishes and 13million people stand up and put on a 1KW electric kettle. This is predictable, so there is little problem. When there is an unexpected surge, the supply system may not be able to cope. Whilst the supply system is capable of supplying the demand of Rome, unlike London which is geared up to being almost 24 hours, it is not necessarily available at the time in question. As a result it falls over. Simplistic explanation, but there you go.:D :D :D

Andy

[QUOTE=andy s]Refer to previous post re: self protectionism. Agree fully on us all funding it!!! Typical of a country who takes out and has little interest when an adverse affect occurs (CAP & British rebate argument).:mad:

Being realistic George, we may not know what it involves, but we know from experience, it wont be cheap and it'll take a considerable amount of time. Doesn't change the fact that it's still a short term fix that will very rapidly become un economic. If governments looked beyond the next few voting cycles, it would NEVER be considered.:rolleyes:

Andy[/QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more matey, I meant that the decom. work likely to last into several hundreds of years unless technology improves, they're also bleeding expensive to build too, was involved peripherally with heysham b and hartlepool... Governmets looking beyond the next election, wowww, you radical you... what about desalination plants, solve water crises and produce a bit of electricity too ????
OOoopps, hockey starting again, tarrah.... Goooo Finns...:D
and as I typed it, sweden scored.....:(

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]Couldn't agree more matey, I meant that the decom. work likely to last into several hundreds of years unless technology improves, they're also bleeding expensive to build too, was involved peripherally with heysham b and hartlepool... Governmets looking beyond the next election, wowww, you radical you... what about desalination plants, solve water crises and produce a bit of electricity too ????
OOoopps, hockey starting again, tarrah.... Goooo Finns...:D
and as I typed it, sweden scored.....:([/QUOTE]

Bad day today!! Hockey or rugby? Hockey.........yeah!!! Oh, but it's Ireland Wales!!! Oh dear, too confusing!!! Opting for rugby, because was playing hockey yesterday and still a bit sore!! (Pride mainly)

Andy

PS: No idea on desalination plants, but not using as much water might solve it too. People start too late in the day here. Why not start with why don't we use less!!!!

Wiping tears from my eyes, sob...... Silver, ohhhh.
The field sort, or real stuff ???? :)

Real stuff, coaching. Why do they let five year olds get so good at skating they can completely trounce the coaches? Just keep telling them I let them win!

Andy

Ah ha! I detect a thread going off track, now move down to sport section there's good chaps! What was it? France, running! umm thats sporty.
Nope, power that was it. ;)

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca]Ah ha! I detect a thread going off track, now move down to sport section there's good chaps! What was it? France, running! umm thats sporty.
Nope, power that was it. ;)[/QUOTE]

Not at all, we were actually using some very technical metaphores to explain the situation the French are in.

Andy

OK, we were going off track, but you wont get us to admit it............Oh deary, deary me, I've just admitted it haven't I, ooh, I could wrestle an action man!

Jeez.. well if it's good enought for the Mods.. 'tis good enough for Aliena and after all.. it is Sunday!

Once upon a time.. there was a little girl called Goldilocks..

:) :)

[QUOTE=Aliena]Jeez.. well if it's good enought for the Mods.. 'tis good enough for Aliena and after all.. it is Sunday!

Once upon a time.. there was a little girl called Goldilocks..

:) :)[/QUOTE]

She went out for a walk in the woods then.............

(Or is this the wrong thread)

[quote=andy s]Not at all, we were actually using some very technical metaphores to explain the situation the French are in.

Andy

OK, we were going off track, but you wont get us to admit it............Oh bugger![/quote]

Thats it Red Card! Andy you swore, quick where are the forum police! Oh damn they where here already!

ROFPML :D

Si Si..........yeah, but, no, but, yeah, but, no! .......different. ;)

We were here in Lazio on September 27th 2004 and did not suffer a power failure!!!!!!!!!! How odd as we are near Roma.

[QUOTE=DavidandLinda]We were here in Lazio on September 27th 2004 and did not suffer a power failure!!!!!!!!!! How odd as we are near Roma.[/QUOTE]

Probably depends which part of the network you are supplied from. You regularly get apparent oddities where someone chops a cable, but every third house gets a power cut. That's because of the way were connected. Can happen on a much grander scale.

Andy

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca]Thats it Red Card! Andy you swore, quick where are the forum police! Oh damn they where here already!

ROFPML :D[/QUOTE]

No I didn't, you go back and have a look at that post and tell me where!?

Andy

This is getting serious........deleting the evidence as well! ;)

Anyway whats Goldilocks doing with Action man?

[QUOTE=DavidandLinda]We were here in Lazio on September 27th 2004 and did not suffer a power failure!!!!!!!!!! How odd as we are near Roma.[/QUOTE]

'twas 2003 ... sory ... whole country was blacked out apart from Sardinia.

Talking of energy companies & companies moving [b]into[/b] Italy, I can't see the UK firm Powergen making a move on thr Italian market........ I'm sure the resulting website ww.Power[i]genItalia[/i].it would raise an eye-brow!

(sorry, it's a silly schoolboy joke but makes me giggle everytime)

...........I don't get out much ;)

Made me giggle too! ;)

I like the sound of w ww.[b][color=#cc2200]power[/color][color=#aaaaaa]genitalia.[/color][color=#00aa00]org as m[/color][/b]uch, or even more!

This was a serious Francophobe thread which seems to be hijacked by a gang from the Circolo - but a few names I don't recognise from there.

What's happenig to this forum it used to be so rigidly controlled?

:D :) :D

[B][COLOR="Blue"]powergenitalia.org as m[/COLOR][/B]aybe, but don't forget the batteries for times of supply failure.

Duracell are Alienas prefered brand.. they last longer, much longer.. and now come with colour coded bottoms

[I]"Duracell ~ the number 1 battery choice for toys. Our batteries make your toys last longer, meaning they will keep your children (big and small) happy and busy for longer."[/I]

:) :)

[QUOTE=Aliena][B][COLOR="Blue"][I]"Duracell ~ the number 1 battery choice for toys. Our batteries make your toys last longer, meaning they will keep your children (big and small) happy and busy for longer."[/I]
:) :)[/QUOTE]

I hope the customs men don't find my battery powered toys when I move to Italy shortly..

SO, Back to Ice Hockey then... actually the thread wasn't being hi jacked at all, Ice Hockey, winterolympics, power supplied by ENEL who're trying to buy a power company in France, France which pioneered many of the power tools, errm, toys you are referring to, so still on track, Ohh, and Andy, as I came from Sheffield, I obviously know nothing about Ice Hockey, but, look reasonable in flares... ;) :)

I wasn't refering to you chuck, at all, in any way.......:)

Oh dear, here we go again! Playground squabbles, playground scuffles...........

NOTE TO SELF.....kepp cr@p jokes to self.

Nah..'twas funny 'til sdoj started braying.. keep 'em coming Tusk!

:) :)

[QUOTE=tuscanhills]Oh dear, here we go again! Playground squabbles, playground scuffles...........

NOTE TO SELF.....kepp cr@p jokes to self.[/QUOTE]

Nah, keep sharing them!!! The grown ups here enjoy them... ;)

God Help us if ENEL take over Scottish Power and the like in France, with their prices and disorganisation......I'm still trying to get connected after a year.
They would Have a problem organising a Bun fight in a bakery

[QUOTE=Brianm]God Help us if ENEL take over Scottish Power and the like in France, with their prices and disorganisation......I'm still trying to get connected after a year.
They would Have a problem organising a Bun fight in a bakery[/QUOTE]

Hmmm probably wouldn't notice a difference... we've been waiting for 5 months to set up a direct debit with Scottish Power... their response to our compaints - admin error ... oh, sorry, another admin error... argh!!

In the meantime the monthly rates DD will go up & we can't do much about it...

Bring 'em on!!

PS - Took NPower 4 months (!!) to realise they can't deal with our account as we have a certain type of storage heater... No idea where the leccy during that time came from LOL

might be of interest in comparison... a comparitive amount of elctricity including cost of monthly charge for connection showed e8.90 for the uk... the cheapest in europe for the same amount in italy e22 the most expensive in europe. there were all the other main countries there in between these two amounts , but i did not have time to read them.

for those of you calculating costs for using mainstream energy here the calculation is obvious, your bills will be slightly more than double for the use of electricity.

overall energy consumption will depend oat which latttde and which altitude you live. Anything ovr 500 metres asl will be very cold during winter nights and mains gas probably won't be an option. However, solar, wind and geothermal are all worth investigating because of the high cost of electricity, gas and oil. More's the pity our resident expert AndyS has decided to take a break - perhaps he could be coaxed back. What say you Ronald?