2886 Life Destroyed By Negligent Mediators In Umbria

Dear Lavender,

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]Thank you so much for posting your story, these stories need to be told. I know of many situations that are not publicised, for fear of looking humiliated or scaremongering.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]We made some foolish mistakes ourselves, we believed our middle woman/agent was telling us the truth but managed to get legal help before the situation got worse. We were committed because we had signed on the dotted line and even with the help of our lawyer, we may not be able to bring to fruition what we believed we were buying in the first place. No doubt, as with you time will tell. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]We are so sorry that things have become so bad for you and only hope that the future will become brighter. [/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca]Dear Lavender,

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]Thank you so much for posting your story, these stories need to be told. I know of many situations that are not publicised, for fear of looking humiliated or scaremongering.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]We made some foolish mistakes ourselves, we believed our middle woman/agent was telling us the truth but managed to get legal help before the situation got worse. We were committed because we had signed on the dotted line and even with the help of our lawyer, we may not be able to bring to fruition what we believed we were buying in the first place. No doubt, as with you time will tell. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]We are so sorry that things have become so bad for you and only hope that the future will become brighter. [/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER][/QUOTE]
Trullo

Thanks

I was aware that you have had problems from reading the treads. I have an excellent l'avvocato who has served summonses, but funds are so low, that I fail to see how I will survive. I have spent between 20,000 & 30,000 on new services, legal costs & expenses. Worse still this company is going to trade at the La Dolce Vita Exhibition, so others may suffer in the future.

Regards

Lavender Field

What a disaster for you and I have every sympathy for you Lavender. Out of curiosity what was the companies response to all the problems incurred since the purchase...:mad:

i also agree that its a help to hear this side of things and i often wonder at the haste people post about their wonderful agents when often those of us that have been looking through this forum for quite a while now know that some things are not as they should be ... i think one takes on a very large responsability when posting that such and such is wonderful... because most of you actually dont know that much until something goes wrong later or maybe when you come to sell a property and find that all the paperwork isnt really as it should be... how many of you even understand the english version of the contracts that you have signed and who actually explained all those presidential decrees and the massive amounts of little numbers of smaller lots that your prperty consists of or might not

i presume lavender can read and write, note her postings , quite literate in fact, therefore how did all this pass her by, more to the point how did it pass by the notary at the stage of the final act who has to make sure both parties understand what they are signing and the consequences.. it disheartens me intensley that these people exist that prey on the vagueness of clients and their knowledge of the italian property laws, we have heard from the notary and various others on the forum that the use of your own solicitor in the actual purchase process of a house here is not necessary because of the notarial system and the protection it provides independant of the agents/go betweens .... how then can this case happen and the many others i have heard of where people buy properties that are rife with problems through agents or middlepeople...

so as trulli says thanks lavender... and my sympathy is with you and i hope that you screw them and their company into the ground , and get the life you obviously worked for and planned for here in italy... but you wont be able to do it here , you will just have to grit your teeth when you see someone saying how wonderful they are ... or even that they are advertising on the magasine or on on of those bbc/itv programs showing smiling customers and concerned faces...

First, it was to tell me to make an adventure of the cold & the last long letter to my l'avvocato was to say that I bought an old house. They're last letter requested a meeting with my l'avvocato to tell him of my responsibilities & those of the vendors. They even came to bring me a bottle of Prosecco & stood there while I was in the cold & grimmaced when the heard 2 of the heaters screaching.

Lavender

[QUOTE=adriatica] so as trulli says thanks lavender... and my sympathy is with you and i hope that you screw them and their company into the ground , and get the life you obviously worked for and planned for here in italy... but you wont be able to do it here , you will just have to grit your teeth when you see someone saying how wonderful they are ... or even that they are advertising on the magasine or on on of those bbc/itv programs showing smiling customers and concerned faces...[/QUOTE]

Here here!

Think this mirrors all our thoughts.

Regards

Andy

[QUOTE=adriatica]

i presume lavender can read and write, note her postings , quite literate in fact, therefore how did all this pass her by, more to the point how did it pass by the notary at the stage of the final act who has to make sure both parties understand what they are signing and the consequences.. it disheartens me intensley that these people exist that prey on the vagueness of clients and their knowledge of the italian property laws, we have heard from the notary and various others on the forum that the use of your own solicitor in the actual purchase process of a house here is not necessary because of the notarial system and the protection it provides independant of the agents/go betweens .... how then can this case happen and the many others i have heard of where people buy properties that are rife with problems through agents or middlepeople... [/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="4"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Trullo, Charles and many other regular users of this forum have been CONSISTENTLY campaigning for the use of independent professional advice and an independent lawyer before signing any paperwork to buy a house....to ensure that nightmares like this one would not occur. Obviously, not even a lawyer is perfect, and mistakes do happen, but in between a (qualified and regulated) estate agent, an independent lawyer and a notaio, the scope for mistakes should be vastly reduced.

using a solicitor or avvocato AFTER the damage has been done will necessarily end up costing 10 times more than using one at the outset! €20,000-€30,000 of legal costs to sort out your problems is an horrendous figure;you are still left in the cold at christmas and your entire dream has been ruined by these unscrupolous mediators....I feel really sad about this story because it could happen to anyone.....

The lesson to learn is quite clear but, having said that, the cultural approach to buying a house abroad (anywhere) will not change until there will be enough campaigners of the DIY approach, where the fewer professionals you hire, the cheapest it will be: then why buying a house in Italy in the first place?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]:confused: :confused: :confused:

[QUOTE=Lavender Field]First, it was to tell me to make an adventure of the cold & the last long letter to my l'avvocato was to say that I bought an old house. They're last letter requested a meeting with my l'avvocato to tell him of my responsibilities & those of the vendors. They even came to bring me a bottle of Prosecco & stood there while I was in the cold & grimmaced when the heard 2 of the heaters screaching.

Lavender[/QUOTE]

Hello Lavender,

Silly letters and Prosecco in the cold?? They seem completely ignorant to your experiences... shame on them! :mad: They would've done better buying you an oil heater!

Hope your avvocato can work some magic before it gets even worse... although you might rather invest any spare cash you can dig up on getting your home sorted first, as I'm not sure how the compensation culture works in Italy.

Fingers crossed!

By the way, lavender, I feel very sorry for your story and I hope that your solicitor will be succesful in obtaining compensation for you if the house was really sold without the necessary certificato di abitabilita. how come the notary did not pick this up and did not warn you of this "minor" problem?

A house without the habitability certificate can not be used as a house, and no one informed you about this? surely you may be able to sue the vendors for misrepresentation? :eek:

[QUOTE=Laura72][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="4"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Trullo, Charles and many other regular users of this forum have been CONSISTENTLY campaigning for the use of independent professional advice and an independent lawyer before signing any paperwork to buy a house....to ensure that nightmares like this one would not occur. Obviously, not even a lawyer is perfect, and mistakes do happen, but in between a (qualified and regulated) estate agent, an independent lawyer and a notaio, the scope for mistakes should be vastly reduced.

using a solicitor or avvocato AFTER the damage has been done will necessarily end up costing 10 times more than using one at the outset! €20,000-€30,000 of legal costs to sort out your problems is an horrendous figure;you are still left in the cold at christmas and your entire dream has been ruined by these unscrupolous mediators....I feel really sad about this story because it could happen to anyone.....

The lesson to learn is quite clear but, having said that, the cultural approach to buying a house abroad (anywhere) will not change until there will be enough campaigners of the DIY approach, where the fewer professionals you hire, the cheapest it will be: then why buying a house in Italy in the first place?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]:confused: :confused: :confused:[/QUOTE]

I got caught off guard having viewed properties with some of the best agents in Tuscany beforehand. The sort who check every detail, for instance Carla at IPN Castello, dots every i & crosses every t & until that's done she won't let you sign on the dotted line. If the agent had been a qualified professional then this wouldn't have happened & I also suggest that people look out for agents who are members of FOPDAC.

The large sum has not gone on legal costs, it's mainly in replacing the services I was told were in good working order, including the very expensive stufa which was mis-sold to me by the heating engineer who they brought to my house. I also have to install new wiring, tank & 2 new pumps to the well, along with a host of other expenses.

Charles Joseph caught my earlier threads & has been most helpful, as have the qualified & highly professional agents who will be trading be trading at the La Dolce Vita Exhibition. The whole reason for joining the Forum was to spread the word.

Thanks

Lavender

Hello, Lavender Field,
If these people are so bad - why don't you tell the name of the company and all people who gave you this hard-time ? I think, as we all are in the same boat, we need to exchange the names of the good people - but even more, THE BAD ONCE !!! So everybody who reads these postings - and many of them will visit the show next week - would know who these people really are !:mad:
Thanks
Mike

[quote=mfriedman2005]Hello, Lavender Field,
If these people are so bad - why don't you tell the name of the company and all people who gave you this hard-time ? I think, as we all are in the same boat, we need to exchange the names of the good people - but even more, THE BAD ONCE !!! So everybody who reads these postings - and many of them will visit the show next week - would know who these people really are !:mad:
Thanks
Mike[/quote]

[LEFT]The problem with naming and shaming before a legal settlement has occured is a) any possible impact on Lavender Field's legal possition and b) the bar stewards may accuse Lavender Field of liable and end up getting Lavender Field's money again.

However once a legal settlement has occured there should be no problem publishing it here. In the mean time I believe it is always possible for people to use PM's to communicate which unless the agents can get hold of those ........

I would also like to extend my heart felt sympathies to Lavender Field and also the best of luck with current/future litigation[/LEFT]

Poor you! I know you can't really mention any names here but this sounds remarkably like the attitude of a certain set-up that we very nearly had dealings with in Umbria. We will be at La Dolce Vita and will recognise them if we see them. Keeping fingers crossed for you that things will improve.

BMB & BMG

Lav,

Can i use your example to highlight exactly what i have been trying to articulate about 'mediators, or middlemen' in previous threads.

You see, Gardahomes, this is NOT just being aware that there are SOME honest middlemen, it's a loophole that is ripe for plucking by the unscupulous 'go-between'. (see previous threads). You ask a simple question & all you get back is pure LIES.

It's not just doing your research, Wishful Thinker, (see previous threads), it's relying on the fact that we are all working from the same book of rules, (or not) & that there are many, many people in Italy who are all to willing for you to accept this 'ignorance' and take the piss & rip you off.

YOU CANNOT RESEARCH OR LEGISLATE FOR OUTRIGHT LIES.

Lavender, linda & i have our own battles with an estate agent in Abruzzo, which has cost us dear & have yet to be resolved, take heart, if Italy is what you really want, then stick in there. Take time to resolve the problems, your dream will take longer than some, we are with you in spirit. PM me the name of the agent & if we can expose anything about his practices/price differentials, i'll check out his website.

Thankyou for sharing your experience, i am sure it will be a guide, a beacon, for others setting out on buying their Italian dream.

[QUOTE=mfriedman2005]Hello, Lavender Field,
If these people are so bad - why don't you tell the name of the company and all people who gave you this hard-time ? I think, as we all are in the same boat, we need to exchange the names of the good people - but even more, THE BAD ONCE !!! So everybody who reads these postings - and many of them will visit the show next week - would know who these people really are !:mad:
Thanks
Mike[/QUOTE]

I would like nothing better than to give you their names but it's not allowed. They are members of the forum by the way. I also noticed that one member recommended them without knowing anything about them & that is horrendous. If you contact me I will give you their name & you can email them to tell them what you think of them

Lavender

[QUOTE=Rob]Lav,

Can i use your example to highlight exactly what i have been trying to articulate about 'mediators, or middlemen' in previous threads.

You see, Gardahomes, this is NOT just being aware that there are SOME honest middlemen, it's a loophole that is ripe for plucking by the unscupulous 'go-between'. (see previous threads). You ask a simple question & all you get back is pure LIES.

[/QUOTE]

Hi there Rob
As you know I understand your story fully and we have since made our peace in private. As regards Lavender's...I am speechless, and horrified. Although I make sure all agents I work with are qualified and iscritti, after reading this and other threads I am meeting up with G&L at La Dolce Vita to look into an ongoing cooperation to make sure anyone employing my services has protection [B]over and above the norm[/B]. Cost should not be an issue. I just want to add though that people should not believe that just because an agent is "iscritto" they will be well-looked after - disasters happen with qualified agents too, even without the incompetent middleman. Qualified agents have been known to tell lies, unfortunately. Charles' level of knowledge and professionalism is the exception, not the norm.
Sarah

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]I was shocked to hear your story sorry its been so awful for you.

At the moment I am working on an Eng Lang Resources site for new buyers in abruzzo.My main aim is to provide information on buying and living in Abruzzo as I've realised that lots of Brits want to buy there but like us don't really have much knowlege or know who to turn to for help.

Would you mind me publishing your story..I know you are in Umbria but the same thing could happen in Abruzzo.I would not use your name.It will highlight the importance of checking certain details before buying.I'm working on the homepage at the moment and will send you a link via PM if you like.IF you would rather I didn't dont worry.

One of the things that your story does highlight is the need for quite a lot of buliding/diy experience before buying an old building.If you don't have it your self then take someone along who does and they will be able to spot [I]some [/I]obvious problems straight away.We would hope that the agent would be honest enough to describe the problems and a survey would show any serious problems but it seems both cannot really be relied on.

Adriatica has mentioned recommendations of agents and I guess I am one of those who has sort of recommended an agent as I've said I liked the people, pleased so far etc, etc. He is quite right in saying that it isn't until a much later stage when problems may show up. Usually when starting work on the house or even selling it. I will reprt back on my experience later this year.Even though we did seem to get on very well there were 2 occasions where we were not happy..once when the vendors wanted 3,000 euros more to get some paperwork done to make the house sellable.We refused point blank and they still wanted to sell.

Another time a house looked like it had a big problem where the new roof was too heavy for the structure and there were long cracks over door frames and windows.The place was very cheap...and in a lovely position so we were going to make an offer but we wanted the scout this agency uses to explain why a previous offer had been withdrawn probably after the survey had been paid for...she refused point blank so we decided not to make an offer.It was silly really as we would have benn prepared to replace the roof and if needed do structural work if it could be done in our budget.The house has sold now!

I think that both examples would have happened to us whatever agents we used and it was our decision not to accept the 'deal'.

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]You are right Sarah, An agent being "iscritto" does not mean a thing. Our middle woman was working with the "iscritto" agent. It was the agent we signed the agreement with but the middle woman who was our language link/guide. When our lawyer pointed out that much of the information passed on to us via the middle woman was totally incorrect, all the agent had to say was it's not my problem, the buyers fault for not knowing what they are doing. He is taking no responsibility for the appalling service we were given but still wants his money![/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]pasted from the FOPDAC website

[I]Members shall make honesty and integrity the standard in all their dealings with clients and customers. They shall avoid misleading property descriptions, concealment of pertinent information and exaggerations in advertising. They shall not market property for specific purposes if that property is not accessible and usable for such purposes[/I].

how many agents in italy are members?

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]Casatuscany is an agency based in Cambrdge that is a member so does anyone know them and are they following the rules of FOPAC?

becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

[QUOTE=gardahomes]Hi there Rob
As you know I understand your story fully and we have since made our peace in private. As regards Lavender's...I am speechless, and horrified. Although I make sure all agents I work with are qualified and iscritti, after reading this and other threads I am meeting up with G&L at La Dolce Vita to look into an ongoing cooperation to make sure anyone employing my services has protection [B]over and above the norm[/B]. Cost should not be an issue. I just want to add though that people should not believe that just because an agent is "iscritto" they will be well-looked after - disasters happen with qualified agents too, even without the incompetent middleman. Qualified agents have been known to tell lies, unfortunately. Charles' level of knowledge and professionalism is the exception, not the norm.
Sarah[/QUOTE]

Sarah

I have just been to see the lady at the Chamber of Commerce in Perugia & she will confirm by tomorrow, that the intermediaries are not licenced (inscritto) to carry out the work which they do. I am still hoping to stop them trading at La Dolce Vita. This is very important news. I believe that those on the Forum should meet to start a huge campaign, using the press. I knew Italian agents had to be licenced but not English ones. If we're quick we can help those that come for the big summer house search

Thanks for your support

Lavender

one of the saddest things about Lavender's story is that her dream was spoiled and her trust in people shattered. Thank goodness she still has some faith and is trying to make the best of a bad job.

We spent half term in our new house with only cold water and an open fire whilst we got works underway, but we knew this would be the case and were quite prepared for it - however it was still pretty grim!!

I know we should all follow the "buyer beware" train of thought but that often falls by the way when you view the house of your dreams and you are assured by everyone that the buying process is a mere formality.

The agent we used was very helpful and has continued to be so, however at times we felt vulnerable especially as our italian is pidgeon to say the least.

Choosing an agent you feel comfortable with is so important as is doing your home work on what you can expect for your money.

When we were out at half term we were in a local DIY store when another couple who heard us speaking English stopped to chat. They were on their first visit to the area and had bought a property on the day they had first viewed. They couldn't even remember the name of the villlage they had bought in and seemed completely unaware of the surrounding area!.

I hope for their sakes that everything goes through okay and there are no problems, but faced with this naiivity you can't help but feel worried for them.

I do feel that it is important to share information about agents and experiences but this is all very subjective. I work in the property field as a letting agent in the uk and am extremely sceptical of intermediaries having met some awful ones operating in the spanish market.

Unfortunately these people will turn up wherever there is a quick buck to be made and my fear is that they will do to Italy what they have done to Spain, Bulgaria and other so called "hotspots", namely push the market to the limit thus overinflating prices and flooding the area with people who only see the area as a financial investment not an emotive investment.

I truly hope there is a happy ending to Lavender's story

Jackie

I know several members of FOPDAC, the problem is, that FOPDAC don't shout loud enough about their integrity. Casa Tuscany are one of their members. I viewed a number of properties with people from different offices they have in Tuscany. They are honest dealers.

We must spread the word about FOPDAC & their members to prevent others from suffering as I have.

Thanks for your post

Lavender

I've read this thread with huge interest. I'm going to La Dolce Vita next week too with the full intention of embarrassing a Puglia Mediator or Property Finder as they prefer to be called. Our problems are big enough and I'll not highlight them here but Lavender Field has just about mentioned all of them anyway. We have only been able to put to rights the wrongs of others because of the wonderful native Puglia people who have felt bitter about our situation and also feel responsible in a strange way for the conduct of those that put us here in the first place.

Our experiences have in fact given us faith in human nature because of the enormous support we have gained.

I think this type of attack may not be the right way, it could open up a whole new can of worms of legalities.

I would name and shame our agents/middle woman now, but it needs appropriate tatics and a legal approach.

As Trullo said... naming & shaming someone publicly can only make matters worse... and you might end up paying them compensation instead of them being ordered by a court to pay you!!

Company names can be shared by PM or personal email rather than in an open forum where they can create problems not just for the persons involved, but for everyone behind the forum (in this case Italy Mag, but if you post on other forums, those providers might get into trouble too).

Better be careful than sorry...

Hope you'll get back at them, Lavender!!

i would be very careful using the pm system also about naming people unless they have some sort of history on this site... the type of companies being mentioned on here often monitor the site and have people that log on either to check what is being said or promote property and therefore you have to be careful about who asks you for private message info

apart from the more obvious users that log on and post things like ... i just bought a house here and such and such were wonderful in their introductions.. and never say much more .. we have lots of different people on here for lots of different reasons

i would hate to think that anyone lost a case against a bad agent/mediator by being careless here

lavender the only people that can sell a house here in italy and charge a fee.. if you payed one and have proof are licensed qualified mediators... and as garda homes has said that is no guarantee of honesty... i know this for a fact...

i agree with trulli ... be very carful what you say and do about people in italy... you leave yourself wide open... even if they are just middle men... they also have lots of friends... i doubt very much you will end up paying compensation in the accepted sense...

Lavender,

Your story is appalling, and you have my sympathy.

However, I would, as others have said here, be very careful of what you say about people's businesses to others, whether or not its true. The laws of libel/slander/defamation are there to protect people, and their businesses from what is said about them. You might find yourself the one being sued at the least, or roughed up or worse.

By all means warn of the potential dangers - this topic has been done from many angles many times - but especially if you have legal proceedings in the pipeline, I would advise that you keep your own counsel as the the specific details.

FYI I am not an estate agent!

[QUOTE=Laura72]By the way, lavender, I feel very sorry for your story and I hope that your solicitor will be succesful in obtaining compensation for you if the house was really sold without the necessary certificato di abitabilita. how come the notary did not pick this up and did not warn you of this "minor" problem?

A house without the habitability certificate can not be used as a house, and no one informed you about this? surely you may be able to sue the vendors for misrepresentation? :eek:[/QUOTE]

Certificato di abitabilità is a certificate issued by the comune that certifies that the house has been built in accordance to the permissions and therefore it is livable
I think it's better to explain how it works the system when people buy an old house, built before 1967:
in this case the vendor must swear, in the contract, that the building has been built before 1967 and that there are no illegal additions.
If this oath is false the vendor commits a crime.
An oath is due because before 1967 there was a different law about planning and building permissions, essentially not all the comuni had a town planning and permissions were quite simple and not so accurate.
Therefore no old house, built before 1967 and without further additions, has certificato di abitabilità, because this kind of certificate became mandatory only for houses built after 1967.
After all it would be quite difficult to find a certificato di abitabilità for houses that often have been built even centuries ago, like many casali or trulli.
It doesn't change, anyway, the vendor's responsability if he swears the false.

[B]Ciao Lavender
While your situation is an extreme one it is not uncommon.
I live in the Bagni di Lucca area of northern Tuscany and am hearing this more often than I would wont.
I even have friends who have decided not to buy in italy now, as they were mucked about so much that they do not trust to here.
In this area we have a English language magazine called the 'The grapvine' and for the last four months there has been an advertisment for victims of estate agents and dodgy builders, you may be interested in their Email and phone number as published, as I believe they may be getting a campaign together.
Richard/Eric on 0044 1371 810 517 or Email:hayden-hall@btinernet.com.

Good Luck
Brianm[/B]

Lavender,
I feel so awful about your situation, I hope you have the means to keep warm and healthy.
Thankyou for posting your story it is so important for us all to have a balanced view and an awareness of what can happen.
I pray that you get this sorted out and finally get the happiness that you have strived for.
I will be glad when the names of those concerned can appear as they sound a really bad lot, not just their services but the shocking services you experienced later from other contractors they recommended.

Try to keep your chin up.
Hugs
Michelle

[QUOTE=Brianm][B]Ciao Lavender
While your situation is an extreme one it is not uncommon.
I live in the Bagni di Lucca area of northern Tuscany and am hearing this more often than I would wont.
I even have friends who have decided not to buy in italy now, as they were mucked about so much that they do not trust to here.
In this area we have a English language magazine called the 'The grapvine' and for the last four months there has been an advertisment for victims of estate agents and dodgy builders, you may be interested in their Email and phone number as published, as I believe they may be getting a campaign together.
Richard/Eric on 0044 1371 810 517 or Email:hayden-hall@btinernet.com.

Good Luck
Brianm[/B][/QUOTE]

Brian

What a good idea. Oddly enough Bagni di Lucca was the 1st place I viewed property, but the hills were too high for me. I live closer to sea level here.

Many thanks

Lavender

notaio
to not state the obvious we all pretty well know all that ...even if we didnt we all know that if you sign to say something is true that its a crime if it isnt...

all pretty simple

but your arguements and many others on here are based on the fact that a notary checks everything is in order before a buyer gives over any of their hard earned cash , that there is no need to use anyone other than a notary

now i know and it seems many others here also do that this is not the case.. the notary checks that the paperwork given to him is legally correct in its format and provides absolutely no assurance that the house sale / buy is honest... and that many ...indeed a lot of foreign buyers are being mislead over the assurity that a notary is there to protect there interests ...and this is just not true... and is one of the main cons used here by unscrupulous agents to put unsuspecting buyers minds at rest... the notary guarantees the legality... i just dont think so

That's exacly as it was in my case. I was under the impression that the Notaio checked everything, while it fact, only that there were no outstanding debts & that the owners had the right to sell & of course she read the contract. Why didn't she know that the documents relating to the well had not been translated, nor had a couple of other documents? What a waste of time reading the statement to the vendors about false declarations relating to illegal additions, when the vendors made several of them themselves.

Why didn't the Notaio question the Cambiali or even ask if I knew what it meant?

I am also very confused about the Certificato di Abitabilita, as I have been told by 2 legal studios that my house should have had one. I understand that it relates to the services, like gas, & electricity, not the structure, so therefore has nothing to do with the age of the property. My friends all have ancient houses, but they also have the certifcato. Also my mortgage manager asked why my property didn't have one. I took my contract to a Notaio in Perugia to check this point & she too, confirmed that as there was no mention of it in the contract & as there was no certificato, the contract could be made Nul & Void. Can you help further on this one.

Lavender

[LEFT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Although these occurrences are not uncommon, it is very distressing to note your situation. [/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I think the issue here is whether the industry implements and enforces certain standards of performance and whether they are acceptable or not? Judging by the relatively poor performance of some organisations and individuals operating in this business, together with their debateable morals, I am inclined to think not, although perhaps the root of the problem stems from the fact that there are certain unconquered loopholes in the law. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Those of us who operate in this business (licensed agents, interpreters, service providers, property management consultants etc) have a responsibility towards our clients, especially when we are dealing with large amounts of their money and their future hopes and dreams. Mistakes are always possible of course, but there’s nothing worse than negligence, utter disregard for the client or failure to take responsibility when things go wrong. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I wholeheartedly agree with the statement made about being iscritto. It is a start, but not a foolproof guarantee. What counts, among other things, is professional integrity. When these things happen, apart from the immense pain and suffering it causes for the recipient, it also becomes especially difficult for those of us who operate diligently and professionally because of the negative perceptions that ensue. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I think that what you describe about completion highlights the many gaps that exist in the current system. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Since you are trying to run a business from your property, I also think that you should focus your claim on the economic loss that has resulted from any negligent misstatements made by these other parties. There are general principles and provisions in Italian law that concern the measure of damages that can be awarded. You need to speak to your Avvocato about this. [/SIZE][/FONT]

I think it is necessary to understand what the italian law means with "certificato di abitabilità" or "agibilità".
This is a certificate, issued by the comune, attesting that a specific building (house, warehouse etc) is livable: there are the hygienic conditions to live in.
According to the article 24 Testo Unico dell'Ediliza (the general building law issued on 2001) it is mandatory to ask for a certificato di agibilità in case of:
- new constructions
- rebuilding or additions to previous building
- renovation on existing constructions that can influence hygienic or safety conditions
In these hypothesis the builder, after the end of the activities, presents an application to the offices along with all the technical documents, attesting that the new construction has been built in accordance to the planning permissions and is "livable".
The first law requiring a certificato di abitabilità was article 221 of Testo Unico di Sanità (R.D. 27 luglio 1934, n. 1265 - the general law on Health), but even this law was about new constructions only and, as already said, not all the municiaplities, at that time, had town plans, so the certificate become really and generally mandatory only after 1967, when a new general building law was approved by the Parliament.
Therefore today the certificato is mandatory only for "new" buildings: i.e. those built after 1967 or, at least, those built after 1934, for the town that had a town plan
So what happens with the old houses ?
As I said, there's no certificate at all, unless the vendor made additions or renovation and in this case he must ask for it and must communicate it the buyer and the notary.

[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]So a property that has had additions since 1967 must have "certificato di abitabilità" or "agibilità" and if the vendor has not provided the certificato then he can be sued not only for not providing it, that living conditions are not as they should be and also for loss of income as the property can not be used as a business.[/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]Umm, had another thought, these additions would have to have been abusive because if the additions had been registered at the commune, then the notary would have checked this and asked for the certificate before completion. [/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]Is this correct?[/COLOR][/CENTER]
[/LEFT]

Charles

You have a way of putting things succinctly & are, I believe the 1st to mention moral obligations. When you introduce clients to service providers, there is a moral obligation to insure that they provide a good service. When you are told that they have caused damage then in the least, you would expect a company to investigate. All I received was: we aren't responsible, not even for those ehom they paid to work in my house, which may be debatable. When these people then boast about their standing in the community it makes you feel sick.

Marc
I find it unacceptable & at the least, discourteous, not to inform the author that you are going to edit their thread, detailing what has been removed & why. You want responsible comments in the Forum. Working behind one's back is not the way to obtain them.

Notaio
Mama Mia, how lucky we are to have this all important Certificato explained, clearly & in great detail. I am very grateful. I will have to check now whether the changes made to the electrics, plumbing & a few other areas mean that the vendors should have provided the Certificato. I have a list of them, as they applied to the Commune for approval, so this shouldn't be too difficult.

Many, many thanks excepting Marc

Lav..

Aliena has a good memory sometimes and if it's working correctly today.. then your post could have been edited simply because you used the word "cr*ppy" or "cr*p".

I seem to remember you said something about the cr*p quality of a cr*p pergola and some cr*ppy doors, but we are not allowed to use words like "cr*ppy" or cr*p" on this forum.. so the Mods come along and sniff out the cr*p and wipe it away!

I don't know why the whole reference to the cr*p workmanship would be deleted though.

Mind you.. I could be wrong and just imagining all this 'cus sometimes my memory is crap and I can get confused and forget to abide by the rules.. but one thing I am sure of is that a bracket '[B][[/B]' was removed after the word "indescribable" in your original first post! ;)

I'm sure most people will remember what was originally there.. so don't worry too much!

:) :)

... this posting is really to my mind what the whole forum should be about... i enjoy the facts and fictions that we all post in fun because nothing much of a serious nature has sprung to anyones mind...

as lavender says charles has put his finger on it and really its the whole essence of the problem .. there are people out there who will take you to the cleaners ...intentionally or not ... for your whole hard earned life savings ... and it makes no difference at all if they are registered or not to do it... and its a moral position.. there are many that can live with themselves and their villas with pools and maybe their bmws ... because they have pulled the wool over someones eyes...

i like people like garda homes that tell the truth...put their charges up front and from their postings have a pride in what they do because that is what they are paid for ... and they do it well... not only because they can... but they most probably want to... and they feel a responsability to those that have entrusted them to help... wouldnt it be easy for all of us if we all met people like them.. sorry if i have embarressed you...

i like mr joseph... sometimes boring in his lenghty pronouncements ... but scruplously honest .. i would say.... and gets it on the nail .. more often than not...

now there are people like macy... that are pleased by the smiling natives and the friendly and sympathetic remarks but like anywhere this is where the problem starts.. the first foreign buyer in an area starts it ... natives eyes start shining... if they bought that place we can sell our place for a bit more... and it goes on and on... and so the enterprising agents/middlemen get onto it ...and it all progresses.. architects/geometras/builders and notaries... they all want to get in on the act...they have all heard of tuscany and they think they can make it happen whereever... not only them the local civil servants... the mayors the technicians... lets get some more income into the place... the list is endless... so to justify macys remarks ...yes they are friendly .. and they will help...but some of the friendly smiling natives are just there for the money that the innocent stupid foreigners can bring... i have often tried to explain to people here that a lack of italian does not equate to a lack of intelligence... but in a sense the way a lot of people behave with their lifes savings does not do much to help my arguement..

again i have nothing more than sympathy for the originator of this thread... i cannot say how much i hate people that work in this way and destroy a dream... but the solution is there for all of us to use... pay the damn solicitors... much as you hate to pay the damned insurance companies and hopefully for the money paid the dream will actually become the reallity

all my c***ps i replaced with D**Ms is that ok ... by the way if that is the case that the c... p word is not allowed in public english speaking areas i have got to break the news to my ten year old.. and abandon him from the simpsons... where all his bad language ...well at least the english part comes from... please advise... if these words are going to affect his progression through life

Now, now Aliena... ;)

Lavender,

I'm not sure about the content Marc has changed but I can only assume it's minimal - pretty much what Aliena says above - but then I'm only guessing. Whatever it was, it certainly slipped through my net...

Perhaps you should send him a pm asking for clarification... that way any uncertainties can be avoided next time round.

That still doesn't make your experience less annoying so I hope you got some good feedback from the legal eagles here... :)

All the best.

Ad

He will be perfectly normal. Next time I will use the word effluence

The edit I made was just to remove a typing mistake at the end of the thread (to be specific, part of a vB Code tag ending the Bold empahasis on the last sentence had been left in so these characters appeared at the end;[b]/b][/b]
I haven't changed the content in any way. The only time I've ever edited the text of a thread was to remove a swear word which was used in an abusive context, and then, I left a remark at the point I edited, to make it clear that I had moderated the text.
I thought that removing these characters would tidy the post up a bit, but didn't realise until too late that it might appear that I had edited the text in some way. Sorry for interfering, but I was just trying to be helpful!

Now, now Marc.. is that with a k? ;)

You ain't destroyed anyones life.. yet! So don't go about trying to make a mountain into a storm.. or is that a molehill into a a teacup? You know how confusing I can be.. but I knew there was a bold bracket in there somewhere and I'm off to hunt out the crap pergola and doors now! :D

:) :)

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca][CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]So a property that has had additions since 1967 must have "certificato di abitabilità" or "agibilità" and if the vendor has not provided the certificato then he can be sued not only for not providing it, that living conditions are not as they should be and also for loss of income as the property can not be used as a business.[/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]Umm, had another thought, these additions would have to have been abusive because if the additions had been registered at the commune, then the notary would have checked this and asked for the certificate before completion. [/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER][/LEFT]
[CENTER][LEFT][COLOR=black]Is this correct?[/COLOR][/CENTER]
[/LEFT][/QUOTE]

Yes, you're essentially correct.
Here are, from a my old post, some informations about planning permissions.
They are necessary for new constructions or for restorations.
The kind of permission is variable
There is one very simple, that technically is not a real permission: it's called Denuncia di Inizio Attività (DIA) and it's a mere communication that the owner send to the local authority, describing (with technical attachements) the type of work he's going to start on his property.
If the comune doesn't object within a specific period (quite short, 30 days I guess) you're free to start the works.
DIA is used essentially for all kind of renovations that don't imply modifications for the static of the building or new volumes, but its field of application has been recently furthermore increased. A geometra or architect might have more informations
For bigger activities there is a permission called Permesso di costruire (permission to build) and it's used essentially for new buildings.
Both DIA and Permesso di costruire are of course possibile only if the local Piano Regolatore allows the kind of work asked with them, so if you own a mere rural land, you're not allowed to build a villa on it.
This is how it works now.
What's happened in the past ?
Italians don't like rules.
There have been many constructions built without permissions or differently from the permissions given.
For settling this situation, thare have been 3 "condoni" (1985 - 1995 - 2002): who have made the building "abuses" regular, paying a fine.
But remember that not all the illegal additions could be eliminated: i.e. if the building is in a natural park, or in an historical/archeological area or the new construction is dangerous etc.
When a house is sold, the seller must give to the notary all the building permissions and (if there's one) a copy of his "condono" with the demonstration that all the fines have been payed.
The notary must check the documents and if he/she notices something strange he must warn the buyer and, moreover, cannot draft the contract, because an house cannot be sold if it is not regular.
Building permissions are not required if the house has been built before 1.9.1967 and this is the reason of the oath made by the vendor that I already mentioned.
Remember that the notary checks the documents: he\she has no knowledge of the real consistency of the house or if there are or not working services (electrics, plumbing etc)
If you need a technical enquire you need to appoint a geometra or an architect\engineer.
What if there are illegal additions nowhere mentioned or the house is illegal at all, i.e built after 1967, while the vendor sweared it was built before ?
Apart from the penal responsability of the vendor for the false oath, he is responsable for the damages too, so the buyer can sue him and the contract might be considered void.
Is there a responsability of the notary ?
Yes if he didn't check correctly the documents or was negligent.
A last advice: do not confound "certificato di abitabilità" with "certificato di conformità": they are two different things.
The first is what I already explained (well, I tried at my best).
The second is a certificate given by electricians or plubers after they have renovated such plants and it is a declaration of responsability that the plant has been made in accordance with the law and is safe.
Remember that only a qualified plumber\electrician can give this certificate and this is a very good reason for not choosing workers "in black".

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]This thread, although tragic for LF is fascinating and addictive but it started me thinking what can be done?

If as Adriatica thinks most agents/locals/comunes/geometras ( with a few worthy exceptions ) are out to s...w us stupid Brits and send us into suicidle depressions and bankrupcy is there anything that we can retaliate with?Not expensive litigation but perhaps another way?

This forum is surely a powerful tool in the war on those cheats so how can it best be put to use?

Going in person to [B]La Dolce Vita[/B] and picketing is one solution for individuals but an impractical one if you live in the far west as I do.Or in Italy.Naming and shaming on the forum is out of the question for reasons already delt with.

Maybe some of you have other ideas.....

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]Hi again notaio, it's me again! [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Thanks for the explanation so far and I understand that the certificato di abitabilità is for properties built after 1967 and for any additions built after 1967 so where does this leave the old property?[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]For example our Trullo has had no additions and is original as far as we know but it has had electricity and plumbing installed, I guess after 1967.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Do I need a certificato di conformità to live in it, use only as a holiday home, or rent out as a holiday home or to sell it?[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]OR[/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]
[COLOR=black][CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]I need the certificato di conformità in order to get the certificato di abitabilità for the above reasons?[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]OR[/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]
[/COLOR][CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]I don't need any certificates at all and I can do as I please.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]OR[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]I'm asking too many questions and should go back to my nursing studies! ;) :) :) [/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]

becky although you exagerate my point i think that yes if you treat all property purchases with a degree of respect and an honest apraisal of how you would treat any bunch of euro notes in your possesion in this case buying a house generally several thousands then you will arrive at the thought that before signing you would have the place checked and fully understand the paperwork involved....

we now know that despite lots of fluffing around in previous posts about the exact role of the notary it does not include any verification that the documents presented are anything to do with the property being purchased other than that the paperwork is presented properly.. notary is right ... there can be good notaries that can spot problems and point these out... but it isnt their job ... so the clever agent presents documents in good order...

so ok ... i exagerate the point ... but sometimes it just seems that if someone speaks italian to you and smiles they have got to have your best interests at heart... the nievity of this attitude is worrying...

As I live in London and have a place in Abruzzo, I would like to go to La Dolce Vita Exhibition for several reasons.

The main reason however would be to add my support in "outing" the cheats and unscrupulous operators who prey on honest hard working people who believe that everyone treats everyone else the same.

I don't know the name of the mediator in question (nor am I asking here or in a pm), so a date and a time when the picket will be from will be enough and I'll look out for the placards! :)

Anyone else joining?

Power to the people!

[QUOTE=adriatica]
we now know that despite lots of fluffing around in previous posts about the exact role of the notary it does not include any verification that the documents presented are anything to do with the property being purchased other than that the paperwork is presented properly..QUOTE]

John, of course I can speak only for myself, but I never said that a notary has technical competence like a surveyor, on the contrary I've always said that he\she works only on documents.
I.e. this what I wrote in anothere thread ("lawyers") last february
[I]"A notary has no responsability about the thecnical side, of course, since he's not a geometra or engineer, nor is responsable if the house has an (illegal) extra room never showed in the maps, because he works on documents and doesn't visit the house, but i don't think a lawyer does it too."[/I]
It is not true that his role doesn't include any verification of the documents, because if these documents have nothing to do with the property he's personally responsable, so it would be a sort of professional suicide working in the way you're describing, but if a buyer wants to have a technical inquiry, he has an only way: to appoint a geometra or engineer for a survey, before signing anything (as common sense suggests).
In this way the buyer could verify if the services are safe and made in accordance with the law and that there are no illegal additions nowhere showed in the maps (and this assuming that the surveyor does a good job).
But we/you have to be realistic too: almost no old house of the kind many of you are looking for (casali, trulli etc) follows the rules, because quite all them need renovations and their services are as old as the house, so it is an illusion to expect from such houses the same quality of a new house
In the same way, not one of you would expct to find airbag or abs in an old mini-minor.