2913 Buying with no agent

[QUOTE=Mhvoiceuk]I've been living in Italy for seven months and have found a village property to buy which is being sold directly by the owner. The property is old but was renovated in the last ten years and has all utilities working.

I need some advice and apologies if this has been covered before - I did search but couldn't find anything specific.

I am not about to rush into this and I want to get it right. I haven't handed over a deposit yet but am on friendly terms with the vendors who I think will be patient - a local family who live in another village house. I am remortgaging a property in the UK to raise about 40% of the money and will be funding the rest with a Banca Woolwich Euro mortgage - which has been agreed in principle. My Italian is not good enough to deal with anything legal so I need to find an English speaking Notaio - is anyone able to recommend someone around Bagni di Lucca? And what/who else? Do I need a specialist lawyer as well? The bank will (I'm assuming) get a survey done and that can be picked over once it's made available. Can I pay for a more thorough survey via the mortgage company- as in the UK? The property that I want to buy takes up the bottom two floors of a five story building in a hill village. The third floor is owned by an Italian couple and the top two floors are uninhabited and look as though they could do with some attention. The top two floors are owned by the local Misericordia and the vendor tells us that the Misericordia will do them up in time and that they are also responsible for the upkeep of the roof - apart from one beam (?) which would become our responsibility when we buy. Would the Notaio check all of this stuff out or would that job fall to someone else ? I would obviously need to know in detail who is responsible for what. The outside of the building also has (pretty) peeling plaster and the interior seems dry but the plaster will need patching or redoing at some point. The property is apparently freehold but what is the usual means for getting common parts repairs done in multiple occupancy buildings in Italy? In England I have a flat which is leasehold but I also own a fifth of the buildings freehold in common with the other leaseholders. What should I expect? I am confused about the order of things. I don't want to give a deposit or sign anything until all searches have been made and I am satisfied that the vendor's story checks out - but it seems difficult to get the ball rolling without paying a deposit. Very chicken and egg. Any advice much appreciated and again apologies if I'm going over old ground.[/QUOTE]

I can't answer all your questions because things do change,you know case by case etc.I have lived in Italy however most of my life and continue to do so.Previously lived in an appartment.Normally it is the rule that the property is "divided"into "millesimi" that is on the basis of the size of the property (leasehold does not as far as i'm aware exist in this country) you are responsible for a share % of all the costs of building maintenance both internally and externally ,these tasks are usually handed to an administrator who may or may not be a member of the condominium with whom he is encharged.Careful because if,for example you bought an appartment and the previous owners have not paid their share of expenses YOU are liable and have to pay EVEN if the debts incurred in the building are previous to your purchase.You will also have to pay a share for the roof repairs I DON'T BELIEVE it's the sole resposability of the Misericordia being owners or tenants of the top floor they may have to pay a larger share but you'd still have to pay a part.I suggest you find out not involving the vendors who the administrator is and find out what's going on there.This is not at all impossible just as talking to other tenants or owners may give you valuable info,just say you may be considering purchasing in the building and you wanted to meet some co-dwellers people will understand ,don't give awayinfo you're there to glean it..hope that helps.If you've got a copy of the land register map of the appartment you can still go to a notaio or speak to a geometra for some initial advice.

MHVoice UK

Are you sure the mortgage company will let you see the survey & will it be a full one? I never saw mine & it was in any case, only a valuation, much like the UK. I woudl start with a Geometra, as he should be able to answer most of the questions & carry out searches at the Commune. You will need to find out if the property has any outstanding debt, as that will pass to you & whether there is a current mortgage on it. You might also ask a well-know English agency in Bagni di Luca either for advice or pay a fee for a bit of assistance, including introductions.

What ever you do, don't put up a penny until you know it's safe to proceed.

Lavender Field

get an English-speaking Italian lawyer specialising in property law. Don't try to skimp or save on that part. Ask them to check all the things you mentioned, particularly the part about the other owners taking care of the roof (just from memory, I don't have time to check it now but I think you've been misinformed).
The bank's survey will mainly focus on the value of the property, (all they care about is being able to get their money back if you can't pay your mortgage). Ask your lawyers to get another one done from an independent geometra or engineer concerning the actual state of the property and what needs to be done.

Hope this helps, I'm sure others will provide more comprehensive advice (Charles??? Notaio???).

Sarah

Sebastiano aswerd most of your question and he's right about the condominium costs and property, so it is better to contact the adminstrator and ask him about maintenance works, payments due etc.
Some banks make an exhaustive survey (including potential damages, illegal additions etc), other are only interested to the value.
In the first case the bank survey would be enough, in the second case it's better to appoint a geometra, moreover it could be useful to know the cost for renovating.
In Italy there's nothing similar to leashold: the closest is "diritto di superficie" but it is usually used for different kind of houses and it is something the notary would check anyway before signing the contract.
My advice is to contact the notary from the beginning in order to understand soon if there are mortgages on the property and if the vendor is the real owner and a geometra if you feel that an exhaustive survey is necessary.

Thanks S, LF (I was really sorry to read about your troublesBTW and hear your notes of caution. I hope things improve for you) GH and N. All most useful. I'll get on to a notaio and make the initial enquiries - probably better if the questions are asked of the buildings administrator by him/her than by me.

Mhvoiceuk ,

you can find some info about buy in italy , to my web site , here

[url]http://www.lifeinitaly.it/Inglese/Purchasing%20Real%20Estate%20in%20Italy.htm[/url]

[quote=Ugo]Mhvoiceuk ,

you can find some info about buy in italy , to my web site , here

[URL="http://www.lifeinitaly.it/Inglese/Purchasing%20Real%20Estate%20in%20Italy.htm"]http://www.lifeinitaly.it/Inglese/Purchasing%20Real%20Estate%20in%20Italy.htm[/URL][/quote]

[LEFT]I am interested to see that your site states that the first thing you do is sign a preliminary agreement ([I]compromesso[/I])! no mention of getting anything checked or following any of the advice given by the various eminent members on this forum. But then you do state at the top of the web page that:-
[/LEFT]
[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=5]"we disclaim liability for any errors or omissions, and we will not be held responsible for any direct, indirect, or consequential damages resulting from anyone's reliance on or use of the information on this web site."[/SIZE][/FONT]

[LEFT]Maybe you should update your site (advertising your company) to reflect all this valuable information, as once you have signed the preliminary agreement you are then liable to all sorts of things and can potentially lose money.....Just a thought or two

Is this a poor attempt at subliminal advertising? [/LEFT]

[QUOTE=DaveJ][LEFT]I am interested to see that your site states that the first thing you do is sign a preliminary agreement ([I]compromesso[/I])! no mention of getting anything checked or following any of the advice given by the various eminent members on this forum.[/QUOTE]

Hi Ugo, I'm inclined to agree here - it's not good advice to suggest that someone signs first and asks questions later. And using the forum to drum up business is perhaps not in the spirit of the whole thing - although your previous postings did alert me to your services. When I spoke to you on the telephone, you asked me to email you - which I did TWICE - but you never bothered to get back. I gave up in the end and went to Banca Woolwich directly.

[QUOTE=Sebastiano]Normally it is the rule that the property is "divided"into "millesimi" that is on the basis of the size of the property (leasehold does not as far as i'm aware exist in this country) you are responsible for a share % of all the costs of building maintenance both internally and externally ,these tasks are usually handed to an administrator who may or may not be a member of the condominium with whom he is encharged.[/QUOTE]

I can well understand that this would be the case if the apartment is a part of a 'condominium' and so the chareges for upkeep of the whole building are shared between all the owners of the apartments - but what happens where the 'apartment' is, say, one or two floors of an old building (like many that are a part of the Centro Storico of many hill towns in Italy) and where there are neighbours both below and above.

Who is responsible for the roof, say? Everyone, or just the owner of the uppermost apartment? And if it is a shared responsibility how is that apportioned - if for instance one owner just has a small single room within the building but another owner in the same building has seven rooms over two floors?
If some work is needed on the basement area then who is responsilbe for that? Would it be the owner of the lowest apartment - or would it be a shared responsibility between the whole building owners?

I have assumed that the OP was talking about being a part of a building rather than one of many apartments within a condo - but I could easily be completely wrong and, if so, apologies....nevertheless would love to know the answer to the questions above ...
Regards Lesley & Brian

[QUOTE=DaveJ][LEFT]I am interested to see that your site states that the first thing you do is sign a preliminary agreement ([I]compromesso[/I])! no mention of getting anything checked or following any of the advice given by the various eminent members on this forum. But then you do state at the top of the web page that:-
[/LEFT]
[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=5]"we disclaim liability for any errors or omissions, and we will not be held responsible for any direct, indirect, or consequential damages resulting from anyone's reliance on or use of the information on this web site."[/SIZE][/FONT]

[LEFT]Maybe you should update your site (advertising your company) to reflect all this valuable information, as once you have signed the preliminary agreement you are then liable to all sorts of things and can potentially lose money.....Just a thought or two

Is this a poor attempt at subliminal advertising? [/LEFT][/QUOTE]

Dave ,

the page of my web site , do not sale any service , consequentely do not are sublimal advertising , this is only "information" , and is from my experience in
buy in italy . Compromesso is a simply text , if you will take it , please click on - if you will know more about me and my services , you can go to home page ,and check all web site . Ugo.

[QUOTE=Mhvoiceuk]Hi Ugo, I'm inclined to agree here - it's not good advice to suggest that someone signs first and asks questions later. And using the forum to drum up business is perhaps not in the spirit of the whole thing - although your previous postings did alert me to your services. When I spoke to you on the telephone, you asked me to email you - which I did TWICE - but you never bothered to get back. I gave up in the end and went to Banca Woolwich directly.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry for my english ...

M. where you READ on my web page a suggestion of sign before ask ?
On this page have ONLY a explain of Italian buy procedure , and some suggestion about the compromesso compilation (all peolpes can download the compromesso.doc file - simply click on )

The info page is GRATIS and no any fees are required for this !!

Any alert for my services , nevertheless if this is not in line with this forum ,
please advise me , i do not have any problem on not suggest for the future .

Regarding your mail , i reply to all e-mail at maximum on the 48 hours .
Is possible that you write to non exactly address ?

In any case , i hope that you have a good services from Ww Bank .

Ugo

As Sarah (Gardahomes) suggested, in our opinion, an English-speaking Italian lawyer specialsing in property is invaluable. We can only speak from our own experience but ours was excellent. Welcome to PM us if you ever want his details.:)

BMGirl

[QUOTE=iwanttobeinitaly]I can well understand that this would be the case if the apartment is a part of a 'condominium' and so the chareges for upkeep of the whole building are shared between all the owners of the apartments - but what happens where the 'apartment' is, say, one or two floors of an old building (like many that are a part of the Centro Storico of many hill towns in Italy) and where there are neighbours both below and above.

Who is responsible for the roof, say? Everyone, or just the owner of the uppermost apartment? And if it is a shared responsibility how is that apportioned - if for instance one owner just has a small single room within the building but another owner in the same building has seven rooms over two floors?
If some work is needed on the basement area then who is responsilbe for that? Would it be the owner of the lowest apartment - or would it be a shared responsibility between the whole building owners?

I have assumed that the OP was talking about being a part of a building rather than one of many apartments within a condo - but I could easily be completely wrong and, if so, apologies....nevertheless would love to know the answer to the questions above ...
Regards Lesley & Brian[/QUOTE]
My appartment was also in an oldish building 1897,one owner had most of a floor, we had most of an upper floor,there was someone who had a one room ground floor place.All costs were divided over everyone.We had to contribute to basement repairs as they had to contribute to roof repairs etc.The previuos owner left debts of Euro 500,00 + which we had to pay though we got this money back with help from Aliena's uncle....

'Tis a lie! :D

Mio zio was visiting nonno in the carcere di Napoli at the time.. along with 317 other members of la famiglia.

:) :)

[QUOTE=iwanttobeinitaly]I can well understand that this would be the case if the apartment is a part of a 'condominium' and so the chareges for upkeep of the whole building are shared between all the owners of the apartments - but what happens where the 'apartment' is, say, one or two floors of an old building (like many that are a part of the Centro Storico of many hill towns in Italy) and where there are neighbours both below and above.

Who is responsible for the roof, say? Everyone, or just the owner of the uppermost apartment? And if it is a shared responsibility how is that apportioned - if for instance one owner just has a small single room within the building but another owner in the same building has seven rooms over two floors?
If some work is needed on the basement area then who is responsilbe for that? Would it be the owner of the lowest apartment - or would it be a shared responsibility between the whole building owners?

I have assumed that the OP was talking about being a part of a building rather than one of many apartments within a condo - but I could easily be completely wrong and, if so, apologies....nevertheless would love to know the answer to the questions above ...
Regards Lesley & Brian[/QUOTE]

In a condominium (and can be considered a condominium even a 2 floors building) some parts are, by law, common to all the owners of the different apartments: they are the roof, the basament area, the stairs (normally, but there can be "private stairs" too) the main walls, pilasters, lifts etc.
For the maintenance of these parts there's a shared responsability and the expenses are splitted among the owners "pro quota millesimale" that is in accordance to the surfaces of the different properties and, for some plants (lifts, stairs etc.) even considering the floor where the apartments are: the higher you are, the more you pay for the lift.
But I guess it is the same in England

can confirm sebastianos info as being correct... we have another property next door to our house ...one of those funny old ones... the owbers sold off the top floor to our next door neighbours and they now have that and we have the gound and 1st floor... if the roof need redoing we have to pay a percentual towards it based on the size of the building we hold...... some houses here especially in villages are very complicated in their ownership ...ie i have seen houses with one room jutting out into the next door house ... for no apparent reason ...but because some relative did not leave the property with a will so the next door being a grandchild ...or whatever got his bit of the house which he then added to his property....

the worse thing here is the condominium... it is the cause of the most litigation in civil areas in italy... there are thousands of pages written on the rules ... a very complicated and regulated system i