2974 Italian Lawyer

Chris..

If you are having anything to do with Italy.. or Italian lawyers.. learn to haggle! :D

There are lots of threads that discuss Italian lawyers.. click onto the search option and type into the drop down box.. and it will bring up all the theads relating to it. The search box is at the top of the page.. on the right hand side.. about an inch or so above your first posting.

:) :)

By and large they seem to get decent write ups on the forum, as in all things there are cheap and not so cheap lawyers, but, try to remember, you are paying for professional services, maybe the extra few pounds will bring dividends in the long run, and remember the old saying "Pay peanuts and you get monkeys"... Good Luck and welcome to the forum.

[quote=chrisbath]Hi.

I am looking to engage the services of an Italian Lawyer and came across Giambrone & Law. They seem good as in the fact that they phoned me back straight away when I had any questions. Anyone had any experience in buying with them as they are certainly not the cheapest solicitor around.

Thanks[/quote]

I am one of the many on this forum that have used the services of G & L. If you want to PM me I am quite happy to give you my views on their services although if you do a search on 'Giambrone & Law' on the forum you will see what views there are:)

[QUOTE=brendangfc]I am one of the many on this forum that have used the services of G & L. If you want to PM me I am quite happy to give you my views on their services although if you do a search on 'Giambrone & Law' on the forum you will see what views there are:)[/QUOTE]

Although they may not be the cheapest solicitors, they come very highly recommended in this forum and in Italy Mag. I personally find their monthly review in the Italy magazine quite interesting as they normally use simple language to explain complicated points of Italian law.

We have been using them (they were recommended to us by several other users of this forum a few months ago, when we started the house-hunting process in Abruzzo) and we would surely recommend them for their services.

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]try to remember, you are paying for professional services, maybe the extra few pounds will bring dividends in the long run, and remember the old saying "Pay peanuts and you get monkeys"... Good Luck and welcome to the forum[/QUOTE]

...and maybe just remember that investing several thousand €€€€ in buying a house in a foreign country is a big step and you shoult try to protect your investment by hiring NOT ONLY a good lawyer BUT ALSO a professional estate agent and a competent geometra....the more you will read about this on the forum, the more you will see that [B]paying a few extra hundred pounds for professional advice is definitely worth it in the end to avoid disappointment.....and being ripped off....[/B]

But then again - some of us did not use lawyers and still managed OK

[quote=alan haynes]But then again - some of us did not use lawyers and still managed OK[/quote]

Alan,

I have smoked for 25 years and don't have lung cancer - I think in the end it's about probability and risk.

[QUOTE=brendangfc]Alan,

I have smoked for 25 years and don't have lung cancer - I think in the end it's about probability and risk.[/QUOTE]

Probability and risk? - perhaps thats why most Italians wouldn't touch a lawyer with a barge pole!

I did the probability thing - then checked with my Italian friends - hence no lawyer [and yes, I admit it was a simple purchase - 2 owners (husband and wife) - and no prblems with other parties etc]

Reminds me of the old joke

Question - "Whats the difference between a Lawyer and a Pig?
Answer - "There are some things a Pig just won't do"

[LEFT][quote=alan haynes]I did the probability thing - then checked with my Italian friends - hence no lawyer [and yes, I admit it was a simple purchase - 2 owners (husband and wife) - and no prblems with other parties etc][/quote]

Alan,

Exactly! You assessed the risk and decided against using a lawyer. We assessed the risk and decided to use a lawyer. Perfectly sensible decisions on both parts I would have thought.

If of course you chose not to use a lawyer simply because you regard them all as worse than pigs then that is up to you but to advise others not to use a lawyer for the same reason strikes me as a little foolhardy (I know you didn't give that advice, you merely mentioned it as an option:) )

I'd be interested to know whether Lavender Field and several others on this forum would regard the lawyers as the pigs in their purchases? [/LEFT]

[QUOTE=brendangfc]
[B]If of course you chose not to use a lawyer simply because you regard them all as worse than pigs then that is up to you but to advise others not to use a lawyer for the same reason strikes me as a little foolhardy.. (I know you didn't give that advice, you merely mentioned it as an option)...[/B][/QUOTE]
Suggesting that Alan had and then acknowledging that Alan hadn't advised others not to use a lawyer or say that he regarded lawyers as worse that pigs.. makes me very confused.. especially as I thought he didn't even say it was an option!

Didn't he simply say he had chosen not to use a lawyer and he was reminded of an old joke?.. which also reminds me of one

Q - Whats the difference between a Lawyer, a dance and a Pig?

Answers on a postcard please.

:) :)

The great myth being perpetrated here is that if you use a lawyer you are protected from errors and insured in the event of errors. In UK where solicitors have been given the monopoly of charging for what a notary does elsewhere errors are extremely common and the small print ensures you will get no easy redress. If you do it yourself you do a better job. The registration system in UK was introduced so people could do their own conveyancing easily. The legal profession weren't going to have any of that, they guard their profits jealously and use all forms of subtle disinformation to deter DIYers and, as we know, it works. Italians, French, etc are often bemused by the British need to use lawyers in house purchases.They do not understand how we have been conditioned.

oooh a riddle, I love riddles :)

now let's see: a pig provides useful food, a dance provides useful diversion, and the only diversion a lawyer provides is of our funds?

[quote=cardi]The great myth being perpetrated here is that if you use a lawyer you are protected from errors and insured in the event of errors.[/quote]

Sorry, who is perpetrating the myth?

[quote] In the UK ... errors are extremely common[/quote]

Based on what evidence?

[quote] If you do it yourself you do a better job.[/quote]

Sweeping generalisation?

[quote] the British [B]need[/B] to use lawyers in house purchases.[/quote]

Preference rather than need? Maybe because, as you state, Notary's are not part of the system in the UK or maybe because Notary's do not check everything a buyer might want checking (see lavender field et al.).

I certainly don't see lawyers as a panacea but as a novice in Italy without sufficient knowledge of the language, the house buying system or the legal process I felt the reassurance was worth the money (after significant debate, I might add). Choice not conditioning I think.

Anyway, you are all being very unkind to pigs.

Here are some of my children...much smarter than Georges ;)

Oh for Gods sake Brendan.. if you are going to quote someone.. don't misquote them in such a way that it changes the whole meaning of what they are saying.. there is enough confusion and misunderstanding on here..

You quoted Cardi like this..

[QUOTE]the British [B]need[/B] to use lawyers in house purchases.[/QUOTE]
When anyone with half a brain can see that is not what was meant

[QUOTE=cardi]... Italians, French, etc are often bemused by the British need to use lawyers in house purchases...[/QUOTE]
Thanks

:) :)

Oh I do love threads about lawyers - always guaranteed to get people 'stoked up'!

Come on - whats the answer to the riddle???????????????

[LEFT]
A lawyer was driving his big BMW down a country road, singing to himself, "I love my BMW, I love my BMW." Focusing on his car, not his driving, he smashed into a tree. He miraculously survived, but his car was totaled. "My BMW! My BMW!" he sobbed.

A good Samaritan drove by and cried out, "Sir, sir, you're bleeding! And my god, your left arm is gone!"

The lawyer, horrified, screamed "My Rolex! My Rolex!" :)

[/LEFT]

A lawyer wears a syrup (of figs)
A type of dance is a jig
A pig is a pig

Therefore they all rhyme and differ by their 1st letter....

Is this the answer Aliena? :)

Don't be daft Tinks..

Why would a lawyer wear a syrup of figs?

:) :)

As worn by libel barristers...;)

Ah.. the East End interconnectedness thingy!

Stop now.. this is a serious thread and if Aliena gets shot.. she will take you down with her!

:) :)

Quite ...shots should be restricted to the Absinthe drinkers in the "proof" thread. ;)

When you still have Forum users such as Cardi, it feels like talking to a brickwall: this is why people like Lavender end up losing a fortune. There are so many pitfalls in the system that encouraging users to DIY is, to say the least, inappropriate.

[QUOTE=cardi] 1) The great myth being perpetrated here is that if you use a lawyer you are protected from errors and insured in the event of errors....[/QUOTE]

This is not a myth; a lawyer and a notaio are [B]professional advisers[/B] who do this job for a living; you [B]are proctected from errors[/B] because they have compulsory professional indemnity insurance. This means that if your lawyer makes a mistake, you can sue him [B]in this country[/B] rather than having to find a lawyer afterwards to sue the estate agent or the vendor in italy. Therfore it is not true that those using lawyers are not insured in the event of errors

[QUOTE=cardi] ... the small print ensures you will get no easy redress.....
[/QUOTE]

this is another utter non-sense; the easy redress means that if you are not happy about the services of your solicitor you can report him to the Law society; if he is negligent, you can sue him and claim damages. so you will not end up losing a huge investment in a foreign country with no real rderess afterwards

[QUOTE=cardi] If you do it yourself you do a better job [/QUOTE]

....likewise, got tooth-ache? do not see a dentist because they are too expensive and you can also do it yourself....

Just wanted to say that we used The International Property Law Centre (Max Gold Partnership) and they were excellent. We too were novices and during the process a whole host of loose ends reared their ugly heads including previous bulding work that had no planning permission. We were actually buying from an English bloke too who tried to tell us that "no-one one in this part of Tuscany bothers about things like that" . They most certainly do and HE ended up paying the fines before completion!

It would seem that there are a number of professionals on this forum hoping to maintain their income. They do not need to do so as there are enough suckers (sorry, converts) out there to keep them in funds for a long time.
Another US lawyer joke..
A bunch of shipwrecked survivors are floating on a raft which is passing near an island. The raft is surrounded by sharks. Suddenly one of the survivors dives into the water and the sharks part to allow him through and swim to shore. A young person asks - 'Why did the sharks let him through'. A wiser older one replies - He was a lawyer and it is what they call "professional courtesy".

[QUOTE=brendangfc]I certainly don't see lawyers as a panacea but as a novice in Italy without sufficient knowledge of the language, the house buying system or the legal process I felt the reassurance was worth the money (after significant debate, I might add). [/QUOTE]

I'd never buy a house in the UK without using a lawyer, surveyor, etc so I don't see why I shouldn't apply the same safeguards as in the UK. All the advice given on buying property is abroad is to use a good lawyer.

If I'm planning to spend 150K then I want to protect myself as much as possible - a good lawyer will look at title, planning permissions, environmental issues, pre emption rights, illegal extensions etc and a notaio is 'not there to give legal advice to either the Buyer or the Seller. His function is to witness the signature of the title deeds and to deal with certain administrative matters.' Hence the need for an independent lawyer, who acts solely in your interest and to protect your investment.

a couple thousand pounds is nothing when you are investing a huge sum of money in a foreign country, without speaking the local language, never mind knowing the legal system.

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]Ok or is it KO? Anyway Great Aunt Trulli has scooped her teeth back out of Andy’s beer so will speak yet again! [/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Who watched?[/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[B][COLOR=#cc0000][FONT=Verdana]BBC1 Whistleblower
[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Tue 21 Mar, 9:00 pm - 10:00 pm 60mins

Estate Agents: Undercover reporters Anna Adams and Emma Clarke expose the murky world of estate agents to reveal what really goes on behind the sharp suits and glossy offices.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Same dodgy agent practices different country which it makes even more important to be on the ball when dealing with different language, culture, laws and rights.[/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]We started do it the Italian way, then the cracks appeared with same attributes as English Estate Agents. So next problem who do we get to help us and put the dodgy agents and there team in place. Couldn't find English speaking notario. Couldn't find local English speaking Italian lawyer apart from recommendation from agent who would have had to translate for Italian speakers. Mmm, don't think so. Look for British based lawyer who deals with Italian property purchase. Nearly had heart failure at the extra charges over and above fixed price from big well known International lawyers. Thought oh god, where is this going to lead if sorting out agents takes an age but would have to pay if neccassery. [/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Found forum, found help, found Italian Lawyer conversant in property purchase. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]He uncovered agent had lied about pre-emption rights and many other things, dealt directly with commune over all searches and true registration of property. Told the vendor off for illegal signing of original contract and made him reduce purchase price to us or he would take him to court. Worked with local notario not against. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Is now in process of resolving legal dispute between agent and me for charging commission above recommendations from their governing body and the fact their service was c**p[/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Do as much research as you like but at the end of the day it's down to who you know, that will move the stones! ;) [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][/COLOR]
Sorry, very dislecksyifickle post cos tired of going in circles.

Cardi, Tinks and anyone else hell bent on calling anyone that uses a lawyer a sucker? It's my money not yours, so it's my choice and everyone else can read what may or may not go wrong. [/CENTER][/CENTER]

[quote=Wishful Thinker]Why doesn’t anyone tell you about it?[/quote]
About his Australian passport but same principle. ;)

Dislecksyifickle or not.. 'twas one of your finer moments zia Trulli. ;)

:) :)

out of interest,looking at the wrists of the lawyers whom i met yesterday 3 out of 5 were wearing a rolex(one was a fake so maybe that does not count)

The one with the fake must have been given a dodgy deal with the company he works for then! :D

Do tell, how could you tell it was a fake? Did the others give the watch a look of disgust or did it tick loudly?

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Buying a house in Italy is a relatively safe process (there is no myth about that), but the only real “suckers” are those who throw caution to the wind and end up being caught out because they made false assumptions about their legal rights and contractual obligations. Another area is when no formal agreements are entered into (this occurs especially during the post-purchase stage when appointing builders, geometra’s or architects). This is a grave mistake because under Italian law the rule of [I]quod non est in actis non est in mundo[/I] (anything not written down does not exist) applies, meaning that you have very little grounds for seeking remedial action (in addition to the time, aggravation and expense involved) in the event of a dispute. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Whereas Italian convention dictates that the house buying process should follow a particular path, the burden of responsibility must still rest with the buyer. This means that the buyer needs to be aware of any potential risks and take the necessary steps to mitigate them. DIY conveyancing is extremely foolish (even Il Sole 24 Ore advises Italians of the dangers of DIY conveyancing) in a country where there is no cooling off period after you have signed the contract.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Not all cases will necessitate the use of a lawyer and your agent (providing you have a very good working relationship and trust them of course), if professionally trained and competent (with the exception of how best to structure the purchase for an overseas buyer from a fiscal point of view) can handle the transaction with ease. By contrast, there is no such thing as a standard purchase (it is equally not a myth) and each situation will have its own set of sometimes very complex issues that will require the intervention of an independent, legally trained professional right from the outset. This becomes even more necessary when you are trying to arrange everything from a few thousand miles away and want to have the extra piece of mind of safeguarding your investment. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]There’s always the issue of cost and I’ve noticed some disparity in legal fees across the market. But the important thing to remember when appointing a solicitor is that fixed fees normally cover a standard conveyancing package. They do not cover any additional issues that may result from complex and inherent property related problems. The same applies to Notaries and basic Notarial fees. If a Notary undertakes more work this equates to more time and money, since a Notary does not act for nothing.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]To those of you who have purchased properties in Italy without using a lawyer…that’s great news, but don’t assume that some one else’s transaction will run as smoothly as yours. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]For prospective buyers visiting this Forum I would say be very careful of misleading advice. It is very easy to get carried away by the dream and before you embark on your journey just ask yourself one very simple question: [B]Do I really want to enter into a legally binding contract in a foreign country without knowing what my legal rights and contractual obligations are? [/B][/FONT][/SIZE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]When in doubt it is always wise to seek professional and independent advice and not to leave matters in the hands of just anyone.:) [/SIZE][/FONT]

If you watched the whistleblower programme you may have noticed that most of the scams also involved solicitors. They tend to dance the square together especially in smaller communities. Just a little padding of the prices and everybody who matters wins.

[QUOTE=cardi]If you watched the whistleblower programme you may have noticed that most of the scams also involved solicitors. They tend to dance the square together especially in smaller communities. Just a little padding of the prices and everybody who matters wins.[/QUOTE]

you may resent lawyers from deep inside your heart, maybe you are one of those with a law degree who never managed to become a solicitor in the end...we don't know, cardo. however, your constant attacks on lawyers and professionals in general are very misleading to the new comers to the forum and hopefully people will soon realise that your opinion is an extreme minority....and that your advice IS NOT TO BE FOLLOWED or people like Lavender will become the norm in the future.....

unless people like brendan, trulli, charles, myself are only campaigning for safe purchases and use of lawyers just for the fun of it or because we all receive the tangenti by the Italian law Society? :D

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]To prevent this as an going debate, cardi no one is under the illusion that there are not lawyers on the make too. We live in a society full of dodgy people, even in my so called caring profession of medicine, there are some that are not so innocent, drug company deals, private practice etc and much of society believe they are gods! BUT when things are not right who do you go to the local butcher or a consultant surgeon? [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]If you go back and read my last post it is very much about who you know, in other words finding the right person who will look after your best interests. [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]My lawyer not only was cheaper than most others but ensured my purchase was safe and has saved me a lot of money.[/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]Your continued fight against lawyers is not productive or helpful.[/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]We could sit here and say there are loads of good agents, middlemen but that doesn't help if you haven't found them.[/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]One of the biggest differences with a "good" lawyer is others do not put up a fight against them, they do as they are told, no messin![/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]Do you really think if I stood in front of our agent a wagged my finger and said your a very naughty agent now stop lying and tell me the truth, it would work. Come on get real!![/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]

[quote=Laura72]you may resent lawyers from deep inside your heart, maybe you are one of those with a law degree who never managed to become a solicitor in the end...we don't know, cardo. however, your constant attacks on lawyers and professionals in general are very misleading to the new comers to the forum and hopefully people will soon realise that your opinion is an extreme minority....and that your advice IS NOT TO BE FOLLOWED or people like Lavender will become the norm in the future.....

unless people like brendan, trulli, charles, myself are only campaigning for safe purchases and use of lawyers just for the fun of it or because we all receive the tangenti by the Italian law Society? :D[/quote]

Laura...you forgot the Rolex watches we receive as gifts:D

Patek Philippe created the world's most complicated timepiece. It was a pocket watch and sold for $11,003,500.00 in 1999.

However.. it disappeared when the owner visited Naples.. rumours are the reprobate pickpocket made her getaway in a space ship. :D

:) :)

As has been quoted already in this forum 'all professions are conspiracies against the laity'. I just try and strike a defence for those of us who go the Italian way and use common sense and trust the notary. I find the suggestion that notaries do not offer the same protection as others misleading and insulting to notaries. If you want to have a brit system in your purchase, fine but do not call those who do foolhardy.

[quote=cardi]As has been quoted already in this forum 'all professions are conspiracies against the laity'. I just try and strike a defence for those of us who go the Italian way and use common sense and trust the notary. I find the suggestion that notaries do not offer the same protection as others misleading and insulting to notaries. If you want to have a brit system in your purchase, fine but do not call those who do foolhardy.[/quote]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Cardi[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]It is good that you offer an alternative viewpoint to this important issue. I would imagine that there are a number of people who, like yourself, have completed without problems and in an ideal world, that’s how it should be. But we need to be realistic. As I’ve said before; there is no such thing as a standard purchase. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]No one is being disrespectful or insulting to Notaries, but if we take your assertion that [COLOR=black]'all professions are conspiracies against the laity' then by definition, we could also say the same of the Notarial Class. In fact, Notaries in Italy enjoy a pure or perfect monopoly. It is no surprise to note that Notaries are considered to be among the wealthiest of the professional classes in Italy. [/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

[COLOR=black][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]As a specialist, among other things, in documentary transactions a Notaio’s involvement is indispensable. He/she will ensure that the contract reflects the intentions of the contracting parties. However, even Notaio has suggested on this Forum that Notaries are not infallible. There are in fact, cases when things have gone pear shaped; problems that may have been avoided by seeking the proper professional advice before entering into a legally binding contract.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]This has nothing to do with wanting to have a Brit system in the purchase. It is do with being prudent and getting it right from the outset. Even Italians make mistakes when purchasing properties. I have some Italian friends with a highly successful and cash rich business. They purchased a large property worth millions of Euro’s only to discover serious problems (not of a technical nature but vendor related) after signing the compromesso. They are now (2 years have passed) seeking remedial action to get their deposit back. If the “Italian Way” is as infallible as some proponents would have you believe, then why, if part of the notary’s role is to act as a warning function, weren’t the problems flagged up in the first instance by the Notary handling the transaction? [/SIZE][/FONT]

I can sympathise with Cardi's antipathy of lawyers. Anyone who has had had bad experiences with such professionals, and I'm sure there are many, will feel the same. But As Charles has said in a previous post, it is irrelevant whether advice is taken from a lawyer or notary. The point is to get the proper advice at the right time, which is before a binding contract is signed or money is paid. If an English-speaking notary is available and happy to help, then I agree he or she is the best-qualified to advise on property transactions. However, if you are in the UK, have no access to such a notary, have no idea where or how to start checking the things that should be checked, then it would make sense to use a lawyer specialising in Italian real estate. The cost is minimal compared to the cost of the asset being purchased and it just doesn't make sense to skimp on this part.

Also, many Brits seem to want guarantees and UK lawyers can provide SOME guarantees, not watertight (see below). I think it would be foolish to expect a watertight guarantee and feel 'safe' in the knowledge that you can sue and get compensation if anything goes wrong.

I think, though that it is worth knowing the following things:

1. I think we have flogged the point that lawyers are not usually involved in Italian property transactions to death. Yes, it's true but there is no rule to say you can't use them, and I don't think it's fair to view people who use them as mugs and people who don't as foolhardy. As Charles is
forced to repeat in virtually every post on this subject, there is no such thing as a standard purchase.

2. Notaries are, more often than not, available to provide legal advice from an early stage, and provide the assistance that a lawyer would and are indeed the most qualified legal professional to provide such assistance. Many people don't know this and seem to view the notary as (as notaio eloquently put it) as a sort of expensive tax collector, which is incorrect, as confirmed by the notariato and by our own notaio on the forum. Unfortunately most notaries don't publicise this fact and don't offer the sort of convenient "package" that the current UK based Italian lawyers are offering, and in most cases they don't speak very good English, notaio being the exception to the rule.

3. When a lawyer checks the technical side of things, what they generally do is find a local geometra and pay him or her to inspect the property (usually around 200-300 euros). In my experience they then ask the geometra to provide a written report of their findings with their signature and stamp. The lawyer does not visit the property to check its legality personally. Their responsibility ends with the geometra's stamp. What happens if the geometra didn't do his job properly and something slipped through the net? Would the UK Lawyer take responsibility for the work of overseas third parties and provide compensation? I think, correct me if I am wrong, this is what Cardi was getting at in terms of guarantees provided by the lawyers. Any lawyer would cover him or herself very carefully.

4. All the checks carried out by lawyers can and are often done by private individuals, by visiting the catasto, conservatoria, comune etc. but knowing what to check and how to interpret the results is the difficult bit and where the legal advice, be it from notary or lawyer, comes in. After all, as we know, many agents will gloss over problems rather than solve them in an attempt to rush through a "successful" transaction.

5. If cost is an issue, make sure the legal professional is spending time on issues that his or her training justify - spending £250 an hour getting a highly trained lawyer to sort out utilities and furnishing might be overkill (a lawyer once told me that this often happens, because the UK buyer doesn't know who else to ask for help).

And yes, Italians make mistakes too. Surely the aim here is for the individual, regardless of nationality, to avoid making mistakes which ultimately THEY will take responsibility for, and avoid getting themselves into the position where they need legal help to get themselves out of a mess, a situation where the individual is very vulnerable and legal costs can escalate out of control. There also remains the problem of dishonest operations/agents/service providers targeting unsuspecting (and non-Italian speaking) buyers - a lawyer can protect the buyer from such people.

If the transaction is completely trouble free (yes it can happen!) then the lawyer will have been overkill but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Sarah

PS who do I have to see to get my Rolex?

Charles Joseph has a fair point but as he says using a 3rd party to the transaction MAY avoid troubles. You can use a lawyer when you undertake any social activity but whether it is reasonable to do so is open to question. In Italy lawyers have not traditionally been used in property transactions because that is the monopoly of notaries who have the expertise. As said each case is different but for every case of notary error there will be an equal number of errors by lawyers and whatever you think it is much easier to obtain redress through the notary than trying to from the lawyer's professional body. As I have already said if a person feels better using a third party in their transaction and they can afford it why should we stop them and there will be many, particularly brits, who feel this way. The rantings of some people who suggest to others not to follow my(dangerous) advice of just doing as Italians do has the whiff of self interest.

[quote=cardi]Charles Joseph has a fair point but as he says using a 3rd party to the transaction MAY avoid troubles. You can use a lawyer when you undertake any social activity but whether it is reasonable to do so is open to question. In Italy lawyers have not traditionally been used in property transactions because that is the monopoly of notaries who have the expertise. As said each case is different but for every case of notary error there will be an equal number of errors by lawyers and whatever you think it is much easier to obtain redress through the notary than trying to from the lawyer's professional body. As I have already said if a person feels better using a third party in their transaction and they can afford it why should we stop them and there will be many, particularly brits, who feel this way. The rantings of some people who suggest to others not to follow my(dangerous) advice of just doing as Italians do has the whiff of self interest.[/quote]

The only whiff of self interest is coming from you and that is your ego.
Your advice is not always the answer and could be very foolish in the hands of people who do not understand the system.
Would a notary have solved all of my problems, no because it is not covered within their remit.
And what is to be gained by any of us, who has gone to the trouble of pointing out what may go wrong and how to avoid it?

[QUOTE=cardi] The rantings of some people who suggest to others not to follow my(dangerous) advice of just doing as Italians do has the whiff of self interest.[/QUOTE]

...enough said....the thread about lawyers will keep coming up for the foreseable future; conveyancing can be done by yourself in the UK but as far as I am aware, everyone uses an independent solicitor to avoid problems and surprises. Cardo, do you also advise people to use the DYI approach when buying a house at home? do YOU use a solicitor?

Here, we are dealing with a foreign country with foreign laws...and with notaries who do not speak english and estate agents who over-see less serious problems because they will only get paid when the deal is dusted...

stating that charles' or trullo's advice has the whiff of self interest is very offensive because: (1) charles is not a lawyer but owns a real estate company and therefore he has no interest in promoting the impartial use of lawyers {maybe it's simply because he knows the rules of the game from within that he is so keen in encouraging people to get independent legal advice} (2) Trull is a dentist in martinafranca and therefore it's hard to believe that she has an interest in promoting the services of lawyers in Italy or in the UK

The truth is that most of us have been through some (minor or major) problems in our own stories and would have not been able to go through with it without the help of our lawyers. Is this so difficult to accept?

[QUOTE=Laura72]you may resent lawyers from deep inside your heart, maybe you are one of those with a law degree who never managed to become a solicitor in the end...we don't know, cardo. however, your constant attacks on lawyers and professionals in general are very misleading to the new comers to the forum and hopefully people will soon realise that your opinion is an extreme minority....and that your advice IS NOT TO BE FOLLOWED or people like Lavender will become the norm in the future.....

unless people like brendan, trulli, charles, myself are only campaigning for safe purchases and use of lawyers just for the fun of it or because we all receive the tangenti by the Italian law Society? :D[/QUOTE]

It is not Charles Joseph who is ranting

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]Yes but Cardi if you didn't provoke anger by accusing all who use or promote the use of lawyers as being suckers, lack common sense or have a vested interest than maybe others would not get so up set. [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]You do things your way and I hope that nothing returns to bite your bum in the future, that really would make me laugh! :D [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]For us who do not have a clue about the system we will go a different route. Started out your way and that was enough for me.[/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Sarah[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Agree with your points. Would just like add the following:[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Providing it is practical for the buyer to do so, a visit to the Conservatoria etc can prove useful. However, a professional and competent agent should provide the relevant information. [/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]I would also say that if you are buying a rural building that has been left in a state of abandonment for many years, then get a parere di fatibilità from the local council. This will tell you what, if any, type of building intervention will be allowed. [/FONT][/SIZE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Just as it is wrong to think of a Notaio as some glorified tax collector, it is wrong to consider a lawyer as a simple conveyancer. A good solicitor will be able to structure the purchase in terms of who should own the property to ensure that you are getting the best from your assets with minimal expense and fiscal liability.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I disagree with Cardi’s view that it is [COLOR=black]much easier to obtain redress through the Notary than trying to from the lawyer's professional body.[/COLOR] This is utter nonsense of course. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I[/SIZE][/FONT]

Folks, it seems to me you all are repeating the "lawyers !" thread:
nothing new has happened, so nothing new has been said.
Anyway, as I wrote in another thread, my advice is to have a look at [url]www.notariato.it[/url] - it is the site of the Italian notaries, in English too and with a very interesting section dedicated to foreigners:
[url]http://www.notariato.it/eng/notaio/l...&trs_id=497000[/url]
[B]if people could read this section before starting the purchasing process, many doubts would be deleted, many questions would be unnecessary and a lot of money would be saved.[/B]
In the next future, in that site, along with the notaries' name and address, will be also pointed out who of them speaks a foreign language, since we have been requested to communicate our language skill..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To know who can speak English will be a great help, well all of it a great help.
Grazie

Trulli..

I have a hole in my tooth.. can you fill it for me please? While your at it.. find me a Neurosurgeon to deal with all my frayed edges.. and make sure everyone speaks my language.. 'cus I'm not happy to spend more than a tenner!

Be warned.. if you mess up.. I will find a lawyer after the event and sue the pants off you.. 'cus my teeth are my pride and joy. :D See?

:) :)

Do bats have teeth?

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Aliena, your teeth wouldn't look like that by the time I've finished! I'm not a dentist and you can't sue me cos I've told you, the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth! Happy to oblige though but in my language it''ll cost ya loadsa money!! :p [/FONT][/COLOR]