3101 The Expat Experience

Hi Sano,

Watched it too & was wondering about the same... I suspect they might actually exaggerate a bit to make it more dramatic.

Found the programme quite amusing, especially the naivety (sp?) involved...

Either the programme is cut in a way to make them look silly and clueless or they went in with their eyes closed. To an extent I can understand that it takes time to adjust yourself to living in another country - we made some silly mistakes 9 years ago when moving to the UK too. But I can't believe how anyone could be so clueless...

What bugged me was that the lady involved still wasn't fluent in French despite having lived there for 3 years!! That's pretty shocking...

What to do to make it work?

Be prepared to work hard & don't expect it'll be easy!
Learn the language!!
Be prepared to find a job below the salary you're used to if necessary!
If you set up your own business, I'd go for a wider market, not just your home market (eg Brits) but also Europe-wide.

Looking forward to next week! ;)

I think that too many people move "abroad" expecting everything to be, well, "English..." then, they try to explain to everyone how they should change things to be, errm, "English..." There are, also the other people who come over and embrace the local Ex Pat community and sit around comparing everything to England and how much better England (or, "Home") is to wherever they happen to be.
Of course there are also the people who have watched these types of programmes and have been seduced into thinking that they can move overseas with no knowledge, set up a bed and breakfast / 5 star hotel business without any ability or experience and make it work, some do, many don't.
I do really feel sorry for the people who do their research, move, work their bits off and fail because the local people don't pay up, or the other ex pats they're working for "do" them...
The moral is simple really, if you haven't got an income, be very careful, you will be functioning in a foreign land, there may be a thousand other B&B's on your doorstep, and it is far easier to learn another language if the teacher speaks your mother tongue, so, try to learn before leaving GB, I didn't and it isn't easy at all.

I think my favourite episode of the "no going back from my home in the sun I've been relocated to" programmes was the couple with the very nice Bedlington based Lurcher who travelled to Spain in a couple of vans and eventually started work in a traditional English cafe serving up burnt breakfasts... I'll bet they're still there too.:)

[QUOTE=GeorgeS]I think that too many people move "abroad" expecting everything to be, well, "English..." then, they try to explain to everyone how they should change things to be, errm, "English..." There are, also the other people who come over and embrace the local Ex Pat community and sit around comparing everything to England and how much better England (or, "Home") is to wherever they happen to be.
Of course there are also the people who have watched these types of programmes and have been seduced into thinking that they can move overseas with no knowledge, set up a bed and breakfast / 5 star hotel business without any ability or experience and make it work, some do, many don't.
I do really feel sorry for the people who do their research, move, work their bits off and fail because the local people don't pay up, or the other ex pats they're working for "do" them...
The moral is simple really, if you haven't got an income, be very careful, you will be functioning in a foreign land, there may be a thousand other B&B's on your doorstep, and it is far easier to learn another language if the teacher speaks your mother tongue, so, try to learn before leaving GB, I didn't and it isn't easy at all.

I think my favourite episode of the "no going back from my home in the sun I've been relocated to" programmes was the couple with the very nice Bedlington based Lurcher who travelled to Spain in a couple of vans and eventually started work in a traditional English cafe serving up burnt breakfasts... I'll bet they're still there too.:)[/QUOTE]

That is one thing that has struck me about the expat community in Spain in particular - they are really creating these little gated communities - mini 'Britains in the Sun' and they usually take their social problems with them too. The Irish are guilty of the same, with particularly drug/organised crime being operated both here and in the enclaves in Spain.

I suppose, if you think about it, ex pats all over the world behave a little bit that way, you know "Little Italy", "Chinatown" etc., but the TV progs. do tend to create the problem among Brits., now it seems they want to exploit the misery as well, happy daze...

I think the clue is in the title - i.e. "Expat" an "ex" patriot, i.e. someone who is "ex" somewhere else.

People no doubt go abroad for lots of reasons. I came to England as soon as I possibly could; I arrived at Heathrow knowing no-one and nothing and virtually skint at 19. Did I seek out ozzies to hang out with? No way. That was where I left behind. I changed my attitude and my accent and very few people now know that I am not to the manner born.

I have a place in Italy that unfortunately I can't go to often enough, but I make the effort to speak their language when there, and understand their way of doing things. I chose to go to Italy because its not England (or anywhere else). If it was just like England, then there would be no attraction. Sunshine, whilst great, is not my top priority.

Not so for those in the "expat" communities in Spain, who buy up "cheap" "luxury" properties and look only inward (ooh we can play golf all day...drink cheap booze...and get some sun (no matter that they soon look like dried apples and will have skin cancer in no time)) or those that go to arabia because they're paid squillions in tax free dollars and simply look the other way at the human rights abuses.

One can understand the delight that the regional governments in Spain take in expropriating people's property to build new roads etc. when the "expats" take the attitiude that they do.

When I had to get a British passport in order to buy a property, I had to go to a citizenship ceremony. I was embarrassed as hell, but the others there, (a collection of asians, east Europeans and ...Sano... quite a few South Africans (I am told there are a million white SAs in the UK)), were absolutely tickled pink that they had been accepted into the "British family of nations".

Attitude really..:)

Wishful Thinker is right in a lot of ways. I never quite got the difference between an expat and an immigrant. Why when British go somewhere they are expats but when people come to the UK they are immigrants. Is it an issue of integration and expectation?

You never hear a news story of the Pakistani or Indian expat communities in the UK... or even the Italian expat community...

As for Sano's original questions:

Why British leave? In the words of a famous politician: It's the weather, stupid! Well not quite it is that but I think its also the fact that for what you would get for a flat in the center of London you get a farmhouse in many parts of Italy!

Why they come back? Because deep down they love to moan about the weather :-) Or may be because it is not as easy as it sounds. You miss family, friends and so on.

What is the winning formula? Integration - absolutely. You need to establish a strong netwrok where you go. If you are moving to an all british community in Spain that might be easier if you moving to an Italian village where you are the only straniero you better get friendly real quick :-)

Jamaicans have rather nice motto on their passports. 'Out of Many, One People.'

Out of many people, we are all one nation. We are people of diversity.. each a unique descendant of the past and the living hope of the future.

Shame it doesn't always work!

:) :)

[LEFT][quote=GeorgeS]The moral is simple really, if you haven't got an income, be very careful, you will be functioning in a foreign land, there may be a thousand other B&B's on your doorstep....[/quote]

France. They seem to be going there in hordes for some reason. Closest to Blighty? The fault of Amanda Lamb and others selling an alternative, affordable 'dream-like' existence? Possibly. The strange thing is that most of them still need to earn a living and they're moving to a Country where the economy is in poor shape and there are very few jobs. You could advise them till you're blue in the face but they won't listen. In addition, they tend to move to the areas where unemployment is at it's worst. So even if they've made a plan, more often than not it's probably already a bad plan.

The fact is that many of them tend [B]not[/B] to learn the language well enough to integrate and they don't have the necessary skills or qualifications to give them an employment advantage so they drift towards the comfort of their own 'kind' [gites, dodgy builders and other ex-pat services].

This is another one of those 'Brits invading France' articles. The most interesting part is the report on the 60 Britons caught fraudulently claiming unemployment benefit in the Perigord last month. I think that just about sums it up really. :rolleyes:
I've no sympathy for these people at all.

[URL="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2092491,00.html"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2092491,00.html[/URL]
[/LEFT]

I was reading about Brits relocating to northern France and commuting to London to work!!! Strange but true (or maybe - I read it in a newspaper) :)

Read some interesting statistics once about commuting times - Italy comes lowest on the scale with an average commute of 15 mins total travel time a day, Brits were top with something like 2 hrs average a day. I think the Italians got this one right.

Fully agree on the 'expat community' thing - in that I'm against it! Haven't come across any German expat communities here (or are we immigrants?? ;) ) but haven't even looked for them!! I came here for a different way of live, to live in Britain, speak English (even learnt some Welsh & Gaelic...) and make friends amongst the locals. Not easy everywhere (haven't yet built up a circle of friends in Edinburgh, but am still in contact with Aberdonian and Welsh friends from my time there some years back) but you've got to make an effort... It's often been a struggle but I'm adventurous enough to take it in my stride.

Yes, I love moaning about the weather and poor services but when I see how Germany's services have gone down the drain (apart from the trains maybe...), it really doesn't matter! There's pros & cons everywhere...

Still think there are lots of lovely areas in the UK & Ireland to be explored before we perhaps move somewhere like Italy... so starting with a holiday place is probably the best way to experience life somewhere else - and find out whether you like it or not! :)

Stephanie the Immigrant...

[LEFT][quote=Relaxed]I was reading about Brits relocating to northern France and commuting to London to work!!! Strange but true (or maybe - I read it in a newspaper) :)[/quote]

Not sure about daily commuting but I know of at least one person working flat-out flexi-time in Central London from Mon morning till Wed afternoon then back home to France Wed night. :confused:
I'm sure he's not the only one!
[/LEFT]

I run a lettings agency and have quite a few landlords who have successfully made the move abroad. They tend to be the ones who set realistice goals and expectations, know the area they are travelling to well and keep a bolt hole here in case it all goes wrong!!

The disaster cases are those people who decide at the drop of a hat that things must be better abroad! Without doing their research they are attracted by supposed cheap property prices without giving a thought to what they are going to live on once there or even how they intend to fill their days!!

As a result many end up drinking themselves into a permanent stupor which does nothing for their relationships, they become isolated and when their health suffers have no alternative but to come back feeling very disgruntled and blaming the world and his wife!! Or alternatively if they are unable to come back they are forced to make a living using whatever means they can - usually feeding off the fresh blood of new ex pats in the area who don't know the ropes and are easy meat to be ripped off!!

Personally I would hate to be labelled an "ex pat" which seems to imply you are of the "lets create a little Britain" mentality and will remain English (or Welsh as that's where we are) lucky enough to have a second home in Italy.

I hope the ex pat army don't come to Italy as they have ruined so many other places!!

Jackie

Brits are the most arrogant species abroad, mainly fat, pink ugly blokes (sun lotions is for sissies), speaking very loudly ususally about how terrible the food is "You wont believe it swimming in oil, seafood, well its disgusting, and noo chips, we wont be back. Joes stomach has not been the same since he arrived here" has nothing to do with the 20 pints of lager he is consumming.

You see us Brits dont really want to go abroad, but the driving rain after 10 successive years in Morcambe has finally driven people to cheaper, warmer climes. BUT we want our own greasy food, everything in English and everyone to speak English and if they dont they are stupid, any generation of any sex will drink until they are attractive...and that is a hell of a lot of beer or sangeria. The women squeeze into infeasibly tight clothes which have little more coverage than your average bikini, showing their glaringly lobster skins off to the max...and all to get off with a builder from Accrington.

Well thats my normal holiday abroad anyway :D :p :eek:

[QUOTE=derekL][LEFT]

Not sure about daily commuting but I know of at least one person working flat-out flexi-time in Central London from Mon morning till Wed afternoon then back home to France Wed night. :confused:
I'm sure he's not the only one!
[/LEFT][/QUOTE]

I think there was a programme on last week or the week before about a couple moving to Normandy and while she was settling in there, he'd be working in London 3 days a week...

Given that the weather isn't much better in NW France, the question is... why?

LOL Elainecraig... and I thought you were talking about Germans... it sounds sooo familiar... :D ;)

[LEFT][quote=elainecraig].....the women squeeze into infeasibly tight clothes which have little more coverage than your average bikini, showing their glaringly lobster skins off to the max...and all to get off with a builder from Accrington.[/quote]

You forgot about gettin the henna tattoo...! :)
[/LEFT]

I left the UK over 20 years ago, my husband almost 30. We left for the experience of working and living overseas and didn't leave until we both had good jobs to go to. Apart from a few university friends heading for similar sorts of job to ourselves (teaching, journalism), the only other people we knew at the time who lived permanently abroad were retired friends of our parents who had moved to the south west France to live well on their good pensions. They were Francophiles, spoke reasonable French, he died and is buried there, the wife is stayed on and is still happy there now.

But today it's so different, I get the impression that moving abroad has become bit of a fad. Fueled possibly by the media, so many people in Britain naively think that the answer to all or any of their problems is to simply sell up in the UK and move abroad. They don't to seem to realise that your old problems always follow you and a whole host of new ones appear where ever you settle.

And the really odd thing in my opinion is that people don't seem to mind where they move to so long, presumably, as property is cheap. I read somewhere about a couple that moved to France who had never actually been there before! Call me boring but I find that very peculiar.

Many of those moving are still of working age, often have the family in tow yet no job to go to. And few have much chance of even getting one. I've worked in Milan and Paris and know that unless you have good local contacts, ideally a good command of the language (preferably with bits of paper to prove it) plus fully transferable skills and qualifications it's hard, really hard. And out in the sticks your chances as a British expat of getting full time, legit, reasonably well paid employment are surely pretty slim? (They certainly are in our corner of Italy.)

Once the honeymoon period is over, the small bit of capital that was left from the sale of your UK house has gone and you've had to endure a long, cold, wet winter in what you assumed was an all year round warm and sunny climate, I'm not surprised so many head back home.

throughout the Summer hubbies commutes to London from Rome out very early Monday am so he's in the office for 9 am and back on Thursday night, working from home (near Rome) on Friday. Works well for us - but do the UK stats take this kind of commuting into account? He has worked in the past who do the same routine from Scotland and Marbella

I don't think the statistics I was quoting took international commuters into consderation!!!
Actually pobably wouldn't make much difference since they were concerned with time spent commuting,and you can get from Fiumicino to Heathrow in less time than it takes to do 2 miles on the M25!!!

Think the stats were referring to people who'd sold up, wanted to start a new life elsewhere - and became stuck for lack of organisation, cashflow, etc!

Fiona, I must admire your husband's working arrangements... very useful if it all works out ... as in your case it does! :) And Rome's definitely preferable to Normandy...

I know this site is supposed to be for lovers of Italy and all things Italian but can't we be allowed to like some British things just a little bit?

I agree with much of what is written here but not on the definition of the term "expat community" - for me that term describes groups of foreigners and their families who have taken up temporary residence because of their work. Quite often the ex-pat community is international but the common language will usually be English.

These communities are often well organised welcoming associations of people who can explain the mysteries of a foreign land to people who have not the time and/or the inclination to integrate. The largest expat community in Italy is in Varese where I imagine the British are in a minority.

My English brother-in-law lives in The Hague and his Swedish wife finds the expat community that operates out of the British club very useful and friendly. She is a polyglot and would have no problem integrating with the local population if it was only a question of learning the language.

I belive that true integration takes years and years (maybe generations). The integration process can be much quickened by marrying a local and in the town (pop. 300K) where I live these are the only Brits that I ever meet. But twenty minutes away in Florence there is the British Institute which is a truly marvellous place that does a lot of good for Britain and Italy and people from many nations who pass through its doors.

The 70 year old widow in the apartment beneath ours is Italian down to her painted toe nails and is proud of her country and its successful emmigrès. Well she was married to an Englishman and they lived in several African countries for most of their married life - she says that she admired the British spirit in building British clubs wherever they go and found them very useful, helpful and friendly during her time in Africa.

When I have travelled throgh Germany (a vast country) for business I was impressed that a lot of the hotel restaurants had a large table where poor sad lone folk could sit together and socialise - a kind of instant expat community. A typical example of German logistical efficiency and other countries should follow suit.

Indeed this website is a 21st century British club - welcoming, informative and protective and may help those living or wishing to live in Italy with the integration experience regardless of their nationality. This website IS partly an expat or wannabe expat community.

I am a little amused at how one of you seems to think it okay that the Spanish government lets people take your property. Lets look at it how it is in that they allow big businesses to take your property and land so that they can build affordable housing. This isn't always done as they then build villas that sell for huge amounts and then you are left with nothing unless you spend a fortune helping them with the sewage and road building costs which is usually more than the house is worth. This isn't only done to foreigners living in their country but to the ordinary Spanish people as well, usually the poorer ones who live on the outskirts.

I know how heartbreaking it can be as it has happened to my brother. One day he had a small house then someone knocked on his door and offered him a pittance, all the time smirking at him. The Spanish government have now been told they cannot do this by the EU and that they must compensate although nobody thinks they will, too many rich people have made too much money out of it. It has nothing to do with ex-pats clinging together and not integrating.

Anyway, I know this site is about Italy so I am sorry to diverse so much. Let us not forget the thousands of Italians living in England who probably act exactly the same as us living in Italy. They love Italy but like living in England. I think it is all about a change in life. I lived in Bournemouth, a lovely place but I wanted to try something different but I think it is so true that if you want to move abroad then you have to speak the language and find a job before doing so.

I am now moving back but I am very sad to do so and this is mainly because I miss my friends but no doubt we will be back, our aim now is to have a holiday home here and maybe one day who knows as although I want to go back, I don't want to leave here.

I watched one 'Escape to / from a place in the sun' whatever, and it was an English couple who wanted to escape the 'rat race' and move to Italy for a bit of peace and tranquillity. They spent their whole time moaning about how slow everything was! I don't think they will survive for long.

When in England, I lived near Peterborough where there is a big Italian community, Italian shops etc. They even have the grapes shipped over and have fantastic wine making ceremonies, where they all get together to make the wine and feast in a most Italian way.

I don't think there is anything wrong with retaining parts of your original culture in a different country. It's the amount you want to retain that matters. I love Italy, I have made a choice to live here, I am doing my best with the language but I still like a bacon sarnie!
Carol

[quote=Carol and Dave]I watched one 'Escape to / from a place in the sun' whatever, and it was an English couple who wanted to escape the 'rat race' and move to Italy for a bit of peace and tranquillity. They spent their whole time moaning about how slow everything was! I don't think they will survive for long.

When in England, I lived near Peterborough where there is a big Italian community, Italian shops etc. They even have the grapes shipped over and have fantastic wine making ceremonies, where they all get together to make the wine and feast in a most Italian way.

I don't think there is anything wrong with retaining parts of your original culture in a different country. It's the amount you want to retain that matters. I love Italy, I have made a choice to live here, I am doing my best with the language but I still like a bacon sarnie!
Carol[/quote]

An interesting point by Carol and Dave and there's nothing wrong with retaining parts of your original culture, but I think many come over and then try to impose their own countries' ways etc., without due consideration for the overall cultural differences that exist.

I experienced this a few years ago when working for a multinational as part of a taskforce sent to Italy. The CEO's misguided arrogance was to impose a management style based on the American way of doing things. Needless to say, it didn't work out since the proposed changes didn't go down too well with my Florentine colleagues, who weren't even on the best of terms with colleagues from other parts of Italy, let alone with other company members from across the globe.

Expectations are sometimes set unrealistically high and that is why many do not survive and end up returning to their country of origin.

As one Italian author eloquently puts it:

"[I]Italy is really like a great, mythological artichoke...a single flower, green and purple, where each leaf hides another, each layer covers another layer, jealously hidden. Whoever knows how to take off the outside leaves will discover unimagibale things, in a difficult voyage in time and space." [/I]

Not sure I agree with you Charles - Italy will and must change business practices along with many other countries. International accounting standards and further European integration are going to demand it of them.
Small to medium-sized, succesful family companies may well be allowed to continue as before but the largest publicly quoted companies will have no choice.
The fact thay your Florentine colleagues didn't get on with their neighbouring colleagues is surely not a case of good management style is it? Sounds as though you, like so many before - including me - swooned at the bella figura of the Tuscan businessman and forgot your management mission. Anyway I am sure you are much better off in your current role than as a management consultant.

swing and roundabouts........ enjoyed reading all the threads, and i am
pleasently surprised at some of the replies...
but can i make just 1 piont about ex pats... and its this, 99% of ,lets use
the word ex pats in england, who are italian or whatever came to england
to work, [they had no choice but to leave italy or whatever large ex pat
community we are talking about in england] so bringing their customs with
them was BECAUSE they HAD to leave their homeland, to work to eat.
now the expat community, when we are talking about, say the english,thats
different they are looking for a BETTER lifestyle, and why not nothing wrong
with that.
just don't think u can compare, large expats groups living in england,and
holding onto their roots,because they need to find work outside their
countries, with english or anyother group of expats living abroad who didn't
need to uproot, solely not to starve.........

As always you are right Geo but what about Paola the architect and Stefanie of moderator fame (I don't think either of them was starving before they left home) but I guess they hang on to a bit of their culture whilst intigrating too - I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. Intersting they have both gravitated to Scotland though. Aye, there's nowt stranger than folk. :confused:

[QUOTE=sdoj]...... Aye, there's nowt stranger than folk. :confused:[/QUOTE]

I thought it was a Yorkshire saying:
[i]"...now't so queer as foooork"[/i]

I'm sure DerekL or Steph will give us the Scots translation!

[QUOTE=sdoj]As always you are right Geo but what about Paola the architect and Stefanie of moderator fame (I don't think either of them was starving before they left home) but I guess they hang on to a bit of their culture whilst intigrating too - I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. Intersting they have both gravitated to Scotland though. Aye, there's nowt stranger than folk. :confused:[/QUOTE]

As much as I like to be involved with the locals and feed myself with local foodstuffs, I must admit that I do get the occasional treat at Lidl's... German Xmas & Easter choccies!! :D Oh, and Italian olive oil & wines too...:p

But overall I don't miss my previous lifestyle... things aren't too rosy in either country but you make the most of it... until you find somewhere else...

[QUOTE=sdoj]As always you are right Geo but what about Paola the architect and Stefanie of moderator fame (I don't think either of them was starving before they left home) but I guess they hang on to a bit of their culture whilst intigrating too - I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. Intersting they have both gravitated to Scotland though. Aye, there's nowt stranger than folk. :confused:[/QUOTE]

they must be the 1%....:)
interestingly [ok maybe not] i have dreamed, is that the right word? of
going to live in italy or rather retire there for most of my grown up life,
thats if u can say i ever grow up. alas i now know that this is unlikely and
long holidays are the only possibility.
many reasons why,just like people who decide to leave there birth place
have many reasons why.
just to say i seem to have done a u turn in latter years,maybe i am not
adventurous as some or life here in england for me and my family isn't so
bad,i have good family near by,not to mention a close few life long friends.

so if ever i come across as cold or grumpy,then maybe i envey those with
the drive to get up and go......

I appreciate the honest and detailed feedback on this thread - it is really nice to get such a cross-section of views on this subject.

Hoy Gio, you really need to plan for your eventual retirement, look at the positives in your case, you already have access to the house and a support network of relatives, you understand the language, mindset and lifestyle of Italians, what you need to provide for is an income, then of course your own family circumstances, but, of course only you and yours can sort that bit out
so, look to a decent private pension plan maybe, you're already streets ahead of the majority of people from Britain who come over here, stop running yourself down :)

Yes i quite agree with the comments!!. My wife and i relocated to Italy six months ago, and it has been really tough!. We had lots of problems, with the questura who wanted to give us PdiS,but we knew that we were intitled to CdiS!!,as we were in the EU. This delayed us by months!, as we had to then re-apply. Then we could apply for Residencey,ect ect. We had lessons in Italian before we came here, and we still continue to have them 4 times a week!. We are trying very hard to fit in with the locals, but it is not a bed of roses!, now we have to deal with Italian problems, instead of English ones!. So anyone thinking of relocating abroad, do your home work carefully!