3185 Basta

Yes, okay, but the Economist has always had a mega down on Berlusconi.
I couldn't understand why Jowellgate happened, since I had "heard it all before" - then I checked out the dates of the previous Economist megadowner on Silvio - coincided with Kelly and wmd - so Ali Campbell had taken his eye off the ball for a bit.....
I take The Economist for a global (non US) view on the world - but they do bring their "anglo saxon assumptions" into the frame with a sort of heavy assertiveness. (IMHO)

It is a message that the Economist keeps repeating. In an article last May, it claimed not to make any bones about its views of Berlusconi, even citing their argument back in 2001 that SB was unfit to be pm in Italy.

I must have missed something... I didn't see any argument or evidence to support why Prodi should be considered different or better. Back in 2000, I once asked a friend's father (a staunch anti-berlusco) what the left did to make his life better when they were in power. "Absolutely nothing" he said.

Prodi should be considered different because during his admittedly brief period he did manage some quite important things - like allowing Italy in the euro zone. That was a huge achievement that people often disregard. It took a lot of skill. With Pecoraro as the agriculture minister Italy became the first in Europe when it comes to organic production (something that even the current minister admits). If the Parmalat and Cirio scandals happened with Italy out of the euro zone right now the country would be in reall mess.

With Berlusconi Italy has reduced the finances of the country to practically nothing and managed to insulted half the population of the country.

For me the reasoning is:

If you think they are both bad - then at least go for the least annoying one and the one that what embarass the country in every international meeting they go to!

The Ecomonist is no communist publication despite what Berlusconi says!

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]if he is re-elected this weekend. He promised at his first cabinet meeting to cancel a much-criticised local property tax which all house owners have to pay. Mr Berlusconi, confidently grasping his lectern, then went on to make promises to students, offering them tax breaks if they wanted to become enterprising businessmen like himself. He appealed to pensioners who would, he said, enjoy free train and bus travel, free entrance to cinemas and theatres and also get a free licence to watch television if he is returned to office at the weekend.[/COLOR] As reported on the BBC website.

Where does the money to pay for this come from?

[QUOTE=Markcarter][COLOR="DarkOrange"]if he is re-elected this weekend. He promised at his first cabinet meeting to cancel a much-criticised local property tax which all house owners have to pay. Mr Berlusconi, confidently grasping his lectern, then went on to make promises to students, offering them tax breaks if they wanted to become enterprising businessmen like himself. He appealed to pensioners who would, he said, enjoy free train and bus travel, free entrance to cinemas and theatres and also get a free licence to watch television if he is returned to office at the weekend.[/COLOR] As reported on the BBC website.

Where does the money to pay for this come from?[/QUOTE]

Your taxes if you are working there...

Hmmm I can see an influx from Scottish pensioners to Italy should that actually come true ... the much-hyped 'free care, transport, etc' for the elderly in Scotland still isn't happening despite 'promises' by ... yes .... politicians...before they got voted. :(

But then... does anyone actually believe politicians claiming you'd have tax benefits after they get themselves elected? There's always a back door to find another way of fleecing the people... GB knows all about it - as I'm sure does SB!!! :eek:

[quote=ronald]Prodi should be considered different because during his admittedly brief period he did manage some quite important things - like allowing Italy in the euro zone. That was a huge achievement that people often disregard. It took a lot of skill. With Pecoraro as the agriculture minister Italy became the first in Europe when it comes to organic production (something that even the current minister admits). If the Parmalat and Cirio scandals happened with Italy out of the euro zone right now the country would be in reall mess.

With Berlusconi Italy has reduced the finances of the country to practically nothing and managed to insulted half the population of the country.

For me the reasoning is:

If you think they are both bad - then at least go for the least annoying one and the one that what embarass the country in every international meeting they go to!

The Ecomonist is no communist publication despite what Berlusconi says![/quote]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I can well remember the social tensions of the 1970’s and blocked political system during the 1980’s, not forgetting the ongoing saga and scandalous matter concerning the Gladio, P2 and Italy’s secret history. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]As far as Politicians making complete a**** of themselves, Cossiga, for example, made violent verbal attacks on people and virtually brought the office of the Presidency into disrepute. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Returning to the contemporary political scene in Italy as I’ve said in a previous thread, in light of the many failures of preceding governments, I am not entirely convinced that the left will be any better. That said, I believe that Italy has great potential but it is not just the political classes that are holding the country back.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[QUOTE=Sano]Your taxes if you are working there...[/QUOTE]

But most of the Italians I know don't pay tax, all the money is under the table. Prodi also says he is going to cut taxes, but how can either of them do this when it seems like half the country don't pay any at all?

[FONT=Arial]SB says...Abolirò tassa sui rifiuti"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Prodi is going to take from the rich to give to the poor. Problem is that the rich have been taking their money out of the country.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]You have to admit it folks, both are pretty sound strategies.:D [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]

A plague on both their houses.......until one of them offers me a Contessaship :)

The difficulty here seems to be that no one is ever in power long enough to actually acheive anything, taking Ronalds points about Prodi, he made the difficult moves, lost popularity, Berlusconi then comes in and wrecks the good work, plays with the laws to save his own bottom, then asks for more time to do something... Prodi then makes unacheivable promises to win office, doesn't deliver on all of them, then booted out Berlusconi comes in again and makes the same promises, doesn't produce........ and on, and on....

Prodi then makes unacheivable promises to win office, doesn't deliver on all of them, then booted out Berlusconi comes in again and makes the same promises, doesn't produce........ and on, and on....[/QUOTE]

Wait.....I think I am starting to see a pattern here:D

This may sound sacreligious in this day, but my gut feeling is that Italy may well be impossible to govern democratically.

Please, this is not one of those, "well, in England" posts, but I have been re reading some of my history of the labour movement books (I should never have opened that box :) ) and the problems here in Italy have a lot in common with the early days of the Socialist party at the turn of the last Century, fragmented party/parties, lack of any REAL policies, too many trade offs between sections of the government, no real cohesion, it strikes me that there will have to be a lot more pain before the various factions unite into a few recognisable parties to focus the vote more, into a straight(ish) left / right/ centre split, then, maybe one party could maybe get a decent majority and put their core beleifs into practice, this would take you to the level of the Labour Party just after the second world war, when they swept into power with a landslide, then realised that they didn't actually know what they wanted to acheive, so, were in power for about 10 minutes, and the see saw between them and the Tories ran on for many more years, it could be argued that it wasn't till well into the 1960's that the British political scene "levelled" culminating within a couple of decades with dear Margaret, then the vicar... Not quite as exciting, and perhaps not the best way forward, but at least there is a stability there. :confused: :confused:

Re: Silvio -v- The Economist.

Did he not threaten (or actually start) legal action against the magazine years ago when they basically said he was a crook? If my recollection is correct, what happened? Did he just let it go after a bit of bluster? Or is the case still somewhere in the Italian court system?

Al

Everyone is dropping to Mr. B's level it seems. This is from the Wall street Journal :D

And this is a bit of a story balanced towards Prodi (though you may think it doesn't read as if it is pro Prodi!!) (From the Times)

"To take on the might of Signor Berlusconi, Signor Prodi has nailed together a coalition of bewildering diversity, stretching from Roman Catholic centrists to hardcore communists, along with Greens, radicals, anti-globalists and pensioners.

Naturally, the members of the coalition disagree on everything, from the environment to marriage, and so the 300-page manifesto for the Prodi campaign is a triumph of political contortion, desperate to avoid offending anyone within the coalition, and thus ambiguous and incoherent"

I think the italians are very lucky.At least they know their leaders are all crooks.Us Brits have to guess about ours!!

[quote=Relaxed]Among the more bizarre members of the alliance are the widow of a secret agent shot dead by US soldiers in Iraq and a Trotskyite who has argued that Iraqi insurgents have the right to shoot Italian troops. "[/quote]

The Times tripped up here. Both statements are either wrong or misleading. The wife of Calipari is a very reasonable person and not to be minimised like that - and her husband is a national hero in Italy as he lost his life saving Sgrena from American bullets after having saved her from Iraqi bullets.

As for the Trotskyite - yes he did say that and was promtly booted from the coalition.

Apologies for that - I didn't connect with the name Calipari - I have pulled that reference from my post (bit pointlessly since you quote it).

you don't need to apologise relaxed! It's the Times that is innacurate not you :-)

True - but in the light of your accurate observations, I (at least) considered it offensive...

You would probably also vote for Bush.

i don't really belong on this thread, but i am here....
politics!!!!!!! does it matter that much?.

keep reading how bad the politics in italy are, but over the last half century
italy and italians haven't done too badly....

therefore you can either read into it that had italy had any sort of stable
politics in place, they would now rank as an economic super power.

or you could read into it that democratic politics,however bad..doesn't make
that much of a diference to a countries economy.......