3648 Dissapointed with Italy - is it a regional thing?

[QUOTE=Colin CJ]I've not long returned from a short trip to Pisa and have come back with a bit of a dissapointed view overall when compared to the Italy I was once so familiar with.
Up until about 10 years ago I was a frequent visitor to the north whilst working in and around Milan, Turin and Brescia and I loved it despite my travels being work related. So I thought returning with my teenage children would be a real joy, but I was surprised to find the people so unfriendly.
I don't think it was because we were being treated as tourists, but whether in the hotel, on the trains, in the shops, in a taxi or even just at the tabaccaio I found a distinct unfriendly attitude from so many of the Italians we came into contact with.
Now I don't expect some sort of red carpet treatment, but it was striking that the friendliest people we encountered were often immigrants.
We still had a great time - there are obviously still a lot of qualities in Italy life there to be enjoyed, but I can't help but think that something might have been lost over the last few years in that Italian way of life.
Maybe its just a regional thing that we experienced and I am sorry to sound negative; so many of you on this forum are very positive about Italy in general and I have in the past had some fantastic times over there, but right now I'm not that sure that I want to return.

Regards
Colin[/QUOTE]

No, I'm afraid it isn't just a regional thing. Twenty or thirty years ago, I found people all over the north, on the east coast, and in the south exceptionally friendly (also happy, open, self-confident and humorous), and told friends in the UK so. I'd never do that now. Italians still often, even usually, give every appearance of friendliness, but you generally get the feeling that it's partly a matter of self-interest (e.g. the status gained by being friends with respectable foreigners). Racism is rife, and it never was. However, I hope it's only temporary. Over the last decade, and especially over the last four or so years, Italian society has been under a good deal of stress (of various types, not only economic, and not only in towns), and if that's the cause, then the old virtues may return once it disappears.

Hi Colin,

very interesting post. I think there are some changes in Italy. Especially in the more "touristy" places there is the tourist fatique syndrome. It is only natural and Sancho makes a good point as well.

If you venture outside bigger cities or tourist hotspots then things change quite dramatically. Where I live in Sicily (region of Ragusa) things are quite different since this sort of fatique does not exist (yet!). However, they are also proud and will not stand for people coming to the southest point of Sicily expecting to find an Italy of 40 years ago where women are all dressed in black and men are all part of the mafia!

[LEFT]I have been travelling to Italy (almost exclusively in a leisure capacity) for 12 years, and even now I have never found the Italians to be unfriendly. However, I do not speak a word of English when I am there, and it may be that I am "blending in" with the locals. [/LEFT]

Even though they must realise that I am not Italian, I have been made to feel very welcome wherever I go. I have stayed in Verona for the past six years, but also visit cities such as Modena, Parma, Mantova, Venice (where there is a lot of tourist fatigue as Ronald has mentioned, and here the attitude is a little different I have to admit). Nonetheless, I have never experienced widespread rudeness at any time. If it does occur, I just treat that person with the contempt they deserve, usually to a round of applause from the bystanders! :D

[B]SIMON.[/B]

Colin…

What you have described is not new at all and very much reflects the effects of the many tough challenges Italy faces in order to survive and prosper in the world economy.

Add to this the by-products of other social factors and the inevitable effects of mass tourism, and you get exactly the sort of experiences you have described.

During the late 1970’s and early 1980’s I worked, studied and lived in the Veneto region. I visited Venice on many occasions since it was easily accessible and always found a certain level of indifference towards tourists. Back in 1995 and 1997, I visited Venice again. This time the level of indifference was worse than before.

I also worked and lived in Tuscany for four years and although I consider it as a second home, I can identify with what you have described. With each region vying for supremacy as far as tourism is concerned, the more well known destinations have developed an arrogant and indifferent approach to overseas visitors. It should come as no surprise to note that President of the Regione Toscana was recently critical of the tourist industry in Tuscany because of its attitudes and pricing.

My Fiancée lives in Florence. Although she is not a native Tuscan, having lived there for many years, she considers herself as a Florentine. Last October I took her to the Marche. She was totally surprised to see how genuine and friendly the marchigiani were.

Two years ago, my mother was in hospital in Fermo undergoing a hip replacement operation. Whilst she was in hospital, I had to buy her some socks to keep her feet warm. I happened to find a small shop in Offida (southern Marche) that sold what she wanted. The owner didn’t have enough change to give me so she said that I could take the socks and pay for them the next time I was passing through Offida. Considering that I was a total stranger, she could have easily not given me the socks.

These examples are not intended to promote one region over another, but serve to illustrate, as Ronald points out, that if you [COLOR=black]venture away from the bigger cities or the main tourist destinations things do change quite dramatically.[/COLOR]

I agree that we shouldn’t get too carried away by romantic images, as contemporary Italy does have a darker side with many of the traditional values having been lost over recent years. It would be foolish to believe otherwise. However, it would equally be a grave mistake to believe that Italy is the only country where this sort of thing happens.

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]Unfortunately areas that become popular with tourists seem to suffer in this way.As someone who's been employed in the 'tourist industry' in the UK I can understand the attitude that many locals have;they tend to look at all 'outsiders' as a source of income and inevtably this colours their behaviour.

When you are trying to make your entire year's income from 4 months of a year you can get very grumpy when you have an 'off' day.We had many of these including a pompous g.t who came into the gallery with a huge muddy wet dog and proceeded to let it shake itself over everything.When I repremanded him and asked him to tie up his dog outside he shouted insults at me.I felt really upset for the rest of the day and I'm sure that I was not very welcoming to other visitors that afternoon!

As to rascism I was going to say how little I'd seen in Abruzzo where African traders trek up and down the beaches with jewellery and such. Everyone seems to be very polite with them.Not at all like the UK.I did hear a lot about Albanians who seem to be universally hated in Italy but as far as racism as we know it in the UK it 'seems' much less apparent in Abruzzo.

I like to see beyond the superficial and certainly a lot of what I see in Italy does give me cause for concern.In another post someone mentioned 'cherrry picking' which goes on a lot amongst expats.overall though I'm still drawn to such a beautiful country with its art,culture,architecture,history and natural environment so I suppose I'm no better than the rest of them!

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

I agree with Ronald - it is Tourist Fatigue. The touristy places must get really fed up sometimes that they do not have their city, beach, village etc all to themselves. With regards to the Venetians, they have no need to bow & scrape for example. they know you will come again, their little city is too unique & unusual for anyone to give it a miss. I think the fact that there have been too many bossy & pushy tourists in Italy over the last few years have spoilt it for a lot of people, too many throwing their money around, too many wanting only English spoken, too many wantin g only English breakfasts, that kind of thing, no wonder the natives get a bit blase about it all. You can still find lots of love & kindness in Italy however, if you look.

I'm sure I'm putting a rather simplistic view here, but general fretfulness in the Italian population seems to be directly correlated with the availability of credit.

Before the Euro I belive that less than 25% of the population had a bank account, mortgages covered a very small proportion of the house value and were on ten year terms etc.etc. Now there is an awful lot of borrowed money circulating, so ordinary people are now in debt, which leads to tension.

This is a very good thread.
As italian I often wonder what is now Italy, what it has become.
It is a fact that many foreigners have a romantic vision of Italy, as a semi-rural country, essentially poor, living in a sort of temporal limbo, between 1950 and 1960.
This is of course not true.
Italy is a wealthy industrial country and has all the contaddictions of industrial countries, from pollution to social problems
It happened essentially in the years after WWII
The first generation of italians who faced this huge process, was really as showed in some neo-realistic movies or other films on that period, like il Postino or Nuovo Cinema Paradiso.
Their social background was common: rural roots, catholic heritage, dignity in poverty....
Now i think we have many different "Italians".
We have the "northern urban italians" (Milan, Trurin, Genoa): they're not so different from a german dwelling in Munchen or a french living in Lyon
We have the "southern urban italians" (Naples, Palermo, Catania), same as the northern, but with bigger social and economic problems, probably similar to some english cities who faced the industrial crisis in the '80, or french cities like Marseille.
We have the "touristic urban italians" (Venice, Florence), living in cities exploited by a heavy industry called "turismo"
In the end we have the "provincial italians" that are the majority, living generally in small towns, with good human and social quality of life, usually rich, the same described by charles.
They're probably the most similar to the "italian" a foreigner has in his mind

[QUOTE=Rina]I agree with Ronald - it is Tourist Fatigue. The touristy places must get really fed up sometimes that they do not have their city, beach, village etc all to themselves. With regards to the Venetians, they have no need to bow & scrape for example. they know you will come again, their little city is too unique & unusual for anyone to give it a miss. I think the fact that there have been too many bossy & pushy tourists in Italy over the last few years have spoilt it for a lot of people, too many throwing their money around, too many wanting only English spoken, too many wantin g only English breakfasts, that kind of thing, no wonder the natives get a bit blase about it all. You can still find lots of love & kindness in Italy however, if you look.[/QUOTE]

This just reminded me of an example of this i saw when in l'Aquilla at Easter. We were sat in one of the cafes and overheard a rather loud conversation by one of the tourist on his mobile which went something like:

'Yeah, we're staying in a dump called Peskyaria' (Assume he meant Pescara)

'It's like Ull with a beach' (Presumably a reference to it's use as a fishing port with stunning beaches going on for miles which are absolutely empty at that time of year and a comparison to the large container port at Hull)

This was followed by complaints about the attitude of people at the hotel and in general.

I do not speak Italian well. I try, people are helpful and appreciative that you try. If they speak English, they will correct you (in english) and carry on. Service I find is relaxed and slow, but always good. I understand why Ronald says about tourist fatigue. I must admit, i am emvbarrassed at time about the way people act, looking for a 'Little Britain' in a foriegn land, or expecting everywhere to be like Magaluf or the Costa del Sol. At the end of the day, if you go somewhere, you should accept that you are a foriegner, you should accept that the culture is different and you may not understand it, you should accept that just because food is cooked differently it doesn't make it bad. Above all I feel that a lot of people do not feel the need to show even a basic level of courtesy when talking to 'Johnny Foriegner'.

That said, in all places, there are people who will make you feel unwelcome, but on the whole, I find people take you as you are and how you act.

Regards

Andy

(Taking deep breaths after that little outburst!!!)

I do know what Colin means, and I think it can't all be put down to 'tourist fatigue'. Whilst in the UK (and even more so, in the USA) people feel beholden to treat strangers with a certain, sometimes superficial, politeness, in Italy there seems to be a definate threshold over which people must pass to be accepted as 'us' not 'them'. I notice this particularly when driving; its not uncommon to give way to someone and receive no cheery wave or acknowledgement whatsoever in return for your graciousness. At the same time, I know for sure that if you were to speak to the same person over dinner, or share a journey with them, they would be the soul of amicability.

I think its a fundamental cultural difference. In Italy, great emphasis is placed on loyalty to family, friendship and community, in descending order. Once you stand outside these institutions, you risk being treated as a non-person. Perhaps on account of how hard life has been for Italians in the recent past, they place a higher value on assertiveness and 'bella-figura' than we do; hence pushing into cues and not waving at passing motorists.

There's a flip side to this too though; I've found Italians generally to be much more tolerant of other people than we are in the Northern Europe. If an Italian wants to disagree with an opinion or action, they will frequently do it with much more humility and consideration for you than, say, an American would. Its just a problem that this quality doesn't manifest itself in the plethora of short-term interactions with strangers that modern-day living has become.

Having been in Italy as a tourist a number of times, I can't really say I was treated differently than visiting, say, Exeter, Inverness or my home town of Heidelberg (as touristy as can be!) as a day tripper - people make money from you but are getting fed up sometimes. I also just ignore the negative ones & focus on the helpful people we've met along the way.

Yes, shopkeepers or waiters in Venice can be fatigued (ahh we had a fascinating example of a 'snail' waiter lol...) but we also met friendly, helpful people like a small shopowner in Venice who does not sell the mass-fabricated masks but paints hers herself.

We hesitated to enter as we were eating ice cream cones and didn't want to spoil her wares. She waved us in saying it was fine (unthinkable in many UK shops). We spoke in a mixture of Italian & English & spent over half an hour in her little shop, in the end leaving with 2 beautiful masks. No pressure to buy, she was telling us about her business background etc. We were very impressed!

Same in Rome - some polite, some grumpy people about but overall still a very positive experience.

IMHO, it often depends how you come across as a tourist - some accept your interest in local things & eagerly help, others can't be bothered as they've seen too many noisy tourists that day already. Leave the dodgy one's behind with a shrug & enjoy chats with those who help you... :)

We have moved from rural England to rural Italy and on the whole Italy is much the freindlier place.

I lived for 10 years in a very small village in the Fens of East Anglia and found that although outwardly friendly the 'locals'(born there or been there for more than 40 years) were extremely intollerant and ignorant of 'strangers' ( anyone from more than two miles away)

I am now living in a tiny hamlet near Montefino and have been met with great friendliness. I am doing my best in Italian and most people are very accommodating, however as I've only been here a short time it may be that they are having a jolly good laugh once I'm out of earshot, but somehow I don't think so.

Very small rural communities are always a bit wary of 'new comers' and fear losing their communities to holiday homes. I have a friend who lives in deepest Cornwall. In the winter there is no one else there and its very lonely, in the summer you sit in traffic jams and can't get anywhere near the beaches.

I think that is the difference, in towns visitors are bringing money but in rural communities people are welcomed so long as they don't change the dynamics too much.
Carol

I've recently moved to Italy and it's certainly different from when I lived here as a kid in the 1960's!

I can't ever remember myself or my parents eating in an Italian's home in those days, perhaps because it was rather an expatriate (Rome=FAO, diplomats and airlines) lifestyle.

Having been here a month I've already had meals in two different houses as well as eating out with friends and invited to a May Day barbecue (from which I returned with 3 fresh brown trout!).

These things are so difficult to generalise about, but it obviously helps that I speak some Italian (and French, used a bit here in AO) with a reasonable accent (even if inaccurate) , and I'm generally a sociable soul.

I agree that this area is not very friendly I have been working since March in Pisa and living in Viareggio. Cant wait to visit my holiday home in Abruzzio in two weeks time before I forget how to speak what little Italian I know!!!

It's always good to have some good and positive criticism (being Italian)...it really helps.

I agree with Notaio. There has been a change in our attitude, and 'tourism fatigue' has something to do with that too, but I also believe that industrialization is inversely proportional to friendliness and reception. In southern and central Italy welcomeness is more evident, but who still believes that Italy is the rural country depicted in some old (and even recent) foreign movies could be deeply disappointed by what he finds coming here.

I do agree with Carol and Dave, but they (like me, although I've lived in Italy for almost twenty years) are more attuned to hostility in their English village -unspoken words, ungiven gestures - even on this impersonal level "you know". But what Carol and Dave say about "incomers" in the UK rings very true, and I personally don't find this in Italy. I moved house, changed comunes recently, and was referred to as "il straniero di Panicale" - which is all of 3km away - and my neighbours just laughed at the local policeman checking me out, accusing him of campanalismo against the neighbouring comune! They hadn't really twigged that I was English, any more than that my neighbour Mohammed (who is referred to as Marco..) is Moroccan. The racism thing in Italy is very complicated: it is endemic, but doesn't really apply to anybody you have been introduced to........in fact, it is exactly the same as in an English village, you are known as a brava persona, or a persona cattiva. It is up to you to determine which category you fall into.

[LEFT]Perhaps part of the difference in the South is that (in Puglia) we tend to be buying the homes that the Italians themselves only live in in the summer. If anything I suspect we usually occupy them more than the locals. They do think we're mad living in these 'rural' and very cold homes. They prefer the comfort of an apartment during the winter months. Whist they think we are all a little 'off our rockers' this doesn't come with any animosity and they are very helpful. Hopefully we can bring a bit of new money into the area without changing it (or is this being naive?).[/LEFT]

Yesterday we visited the town hall of Noto. We need to take care of some paperwork. We were directed to an office and given the name of a lady. We entered this grand room with fading frescoes on the ceilings and amazing arches with views of Noto's cathedral. In a room of about 35sq. m. there were three desks and several cupboards with the birth, death and marriage records.

A lady was sitting behind the desk and hardly looked up to see us. We said (in Italian) - "we are looking for Mrs X" - "Desideri..." (note she neither confirmed or denied who she was). Her look was clearly that of distrust and anyone's first impression would be of how cold and almost rude she was.

The coldness continued for the next 4-5 minutes during which we established who we were, what we wanted, etc. We always talked with maximum respect and kindness. Then the transformation began - what I called the "melting trick".

She started smiling, asking more about us and where we are from. Sharing information on the town. Offering to save us time by doing X or Y. By the end we were shaking hands, all smiles and jokes.

And here lies the problem. It is what Marc mentioned - people initially are suspicious. They have been through a lot and are not about to open up to any "johny-come-lately" walking in their office or space. However, as soon as they see that you are not there to boss them (hence they don't need to boss you first!) then they melt. And they become the warm and friendly Italians we know.

With tourists there often isn't the time for the "melting" to take place - the interactions are too short!

Of course the melting doesn't always occur, but don't dismiss the possibility from the start!

I suspect most people have properties they could rent out - does anyone advertise in the local shop?