3724 Is it really so bad?

If you can speak Italian then it will help a lot but you will still need to keep your wits about you and if you don't have any contacts you can trust then use a lawyer who understand Italian property purchase.

Good luck and have fun with the search! :D

For goodness sake - I can't quite see where you are coming from. If you speak Italian, speak it!! What possible advantage could it be for you to pretend you don't understand the language? In my experience, estate agents (however honest) get a bit frightened by non-Italian speakers - and with good reason - these "foreigners" often make "unreasonable" demands, and however well the agents are trying to do their job they have the doubt that they have not been fully understood by a non Italian speaker. So, speak Italian - and if you are not able to nform yourself fully on Italian property buying practices take advice (in whichever language). Good luck :)

Relaxed..

Chill

:D :D

Well, I suppose I could have fun trying to buy a house in England and pretending I "no spika di lingo".....but I can think of better ways of amusing myself!! :)

I know of a situation where in fact the agent was unaware that they were talking to someone who could speak Italian and the person picked up on quite a few dodgy comments. So no, I wouldn't suggest not speaking Italian but it's not such a silly comment as you may think Relaxed, use your skills to your advantage how ever they may be appropriate at the time.

Well, I hear what you are saying, and if you pretended to be the dumb Brit and then understood "dodgy asides" from the agent, okay. But if you speak Italian, (and the original poster said they were bilingual, thus presumably pretty good at the language) there would be no hesitation in asking the "right questions" - and if you are speaking in what is virtually a native language then surely one would detect any "hedged responses" created by an intended deception?? If you were dealing with an English Estate Agent surely you would feel confident to ask "awkward questions" - so I just cannot see the point of deceiving the agent (to your own disadvantage) by making communication more difficult than necessary.

I didn't say deceive, I said use it to your advantage. Have you never been in a situation and asked for infomation about something that you in fact knew quite a lot about but it was an advantage to not let on how much you do know. Look at it this way you go to English speaking middle person and they don't know you can speak Italian but they then speak to geometra or vendor in Italian. You would be surprised how the translation back in English can differ. All I'm saying is it may be prudent, as the saying goes "don't play your cards all at once".

You have to remember that you can ask as many right questions in either language but it doesn't mean you always get the truth back.

I still cannot see any value in pretending to not understand a language, if you truly and fully understand the language. That, to me, implies deceit on the part of the person "posing" as a foreigner (ready to be plucked!!) Okay, tonight I'm on a hobbyhorse, all about interpersonal relationships and trust, but without this I think we are all in a wilderness...............on a human civilised level, f**k lawyers............they dehumanise everything. (IMO)

[QUOTE=Genna]We are about to set off on a two weeks journey from Spain to Italy by car in search of our 'dream home'. Totally dis-illusioned with the 'British Spaniard' we are looking forward to touring the villages in and around Tuscany. However, many of the posts I read seem to have conflicting advice and horror stories to report. Is it really going to be this bad? I lived in the Veneto region for several years, but this was quite some time ago. I loved every minute and totally immersed myself and my family in the Italian culture, so much so that I am completely bi-lingual. Here comes a question, should I pretend I don't speak Italian in order to assess exactly what the estate agent and prospective sellers are discussing, or should I just go ahead and show my hand? Should I try and buy privately with of course the use of a solicitor or should I go through an estate agency? My memories of Italy and the people are wonderful, am I living in the past?[/QUOTE]

You may well be slightly living in the past - you can hardly get on a plane to Italy nowadays without overhearing various other British passengers discussing the "properties" they've bought or hope to buy there - but I don't think it's got quite as bad as I hear some parts of Spain have (yet). It depends to some extent on the area you go to, of course. Rural Tuscany is notoriously full of Brits and Germans, generally only living there for a short while every year. Any farmer from Emilia Romagna to Puglia (at least) wanting to flog his ruin will automatically think of flogging it to a foreigner (usually meaning a Brit), because he thinks he'll be able to get more for it or because he thinks no Italian would ever be interested. (They've all heard stories of other farmers getting undreamt-of sums from foreigners for similar ruins.) But Alto Adige, for example, is very different.

If you can deal with it privately, do. Just go and see the local geometras (who'll probably know more about what's for sale than estate agents will) and/or let it be known in a local bar or two that you're looking. The word'll get round [U]very[/U] quickly. But it'll probably take longer, and you may be a bit worried about not having much security, having to deal with any paperwork, etc, yourself. The price should end up lower, because, obviously, you'll be cutting out the middle man. Compare the prices farmers and geometras give you with agents' prices on the net, in agency windows, etc.

I understand your language point, but I agree with Relaxed that, in the end, pretending not to speak Italian would be pointless and counter-productive. Also bloody uncomfortable. They'll very quickly find out you do speak it anyway.

[quote=Relaxed]I still cannot see any value in pretending to not understand a language, if you truly and fully understand the language. That, to me, implies deceit on the part of the person "posing" as a foreigner (ready to be plucked!!) Okay, tonight I'm on a hobbyhorse, all about interpersonal relationships and trust, but without this I think we are all in a wilderness...............on a human civilised level, f**k lawyers............they dehumanise everything. (IMO)[/quote]

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]In an ideal world we would all like to trust everyone but.....we trusted our English middle woman and her agent to tell us the truth, it didn't happen. If we could have spoken Italian it would have helped, we could have gone to a notary for a start, one of our choice, but because we can't speak Italian then a lawyer was the best thing for us and saved us a lot of money! There is no definitive way to do this, each case warrants a different approach. Neither you nor I are totally right, members reading the forum can take on board the views of others and then they have a choice. I have never said pretend that you can't speak Italian, I said use it to your advantage, there is a difference. [/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]

Good on yer Relaxed. I agree with everything you say.

[quote=Rina]Good on yer Relaxed. I agree with everything you say.[/quote]

So if we listen to everything Relaxed has said, how would that have helped us in our situation?

You ensure that dodgy agents are civilised and then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

A salient point, i suggest in a commercial sense it is always best to play your cards fairly close to the chest. If you feel there is an advantage to dealing with so called estate agents, especially the British type of go between selling companies, I agree , let them think you are the dumb one and then you will easily learn that the fact that half of them cannot understand half of what the Italian agent is telling them, because they have not reached that lesson in the "learn Italian" series of computer courses. You will therefore be content to walk away.

If however and here is your advantage, you arrive at a small town, with a local Italian agent who you need to communicate with then he/she will be more than happy that at long last there is some english speaker that can talk Italian and who has not decided to end up at the web based english advertising companies that seem to be able to sell rubbish at high prices to unsuspecting and generally nieve foreign buyers.

I think you will find that in essence you will be dealing with someone that will treat you fairly, will give you an honest apraisal of the property and the price surprisngly will not only be reasonable, you will find unlike most that say there are huge discounts to be had, that the price will have very little negotiating beyond the 5 % mark. Why because it has been set at a real level not an inflated "sell to foreigner level".

You are obviously one of the lucky ones and I have a great deal of sympathy with the viewpoints pronounced over professional help and go between con people. One to be used if you think it necessary and the latter to be avoided like the plague, but hard, when your internet searches are based in English rather than native Italian.

A little known point and one that will soon make people sit up and know you may well understand a thing or two about the whole process is that no one other than a registered estate agent is allowed to show you around a house for a percentage of the selling price. Why because they have a duty under law to inform you of all the facts of the property, good or bad, so they under law, note that fact, cannot lie to a client.( in reality of course they can, but they are then legally responsible for what they tell you). There lies the protection that most of you seem to be looking for, geometras cannot, and often they are the worst sort, they will bill you the percentage fee as technical advise, and you have no protection, the wording protects them from in essence a function that they under law are not allowed to perform. Another get out is the fixed fee loophole, because only registered agents are allowed to sell properties for commision here some bright sparks use this devise, again they have no legal responsibility to tell you the truth and you pay over your money with no legal recourse if things are not as stated.

So proceed with caution, take a balanced view from both sides, and learn as much of the process before hand as possible. The warnings from trullomartinafranca, and the experience gained by buying here, the problems, are a reality. Learned the hard way. The viewpoint of the honest, or fair at least estate agent, that is also portrayed, is also valid, but in general they are not the web based British advertising agencies, that like to suck the blood of their own.

By posting here and asking, you have at least gained the advantage of the combined knowledge of the forum, a word of warning though, it is obvious that various agencies set up membership here and tell how wonderful this or that other company was, it seems abruzzo is taking quite a few hits of this type at the moment, good thing to look at a members history of posting before following any of these to say the least dodgey reccomendations.

Definitely show your hand as an Italian speaker and, what's more, let people know that you have previously lived in Italy, you'll command even more respect. But above all else, make sure you know precisely where you want to live in this quite large province. If you're planning on buying what will be a permanent home, I'd urge you to rent first. This will give you time to get to know the area, put out feelers, get to know people in the business of selling houses and hunt at leisure. Good luck. V

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]Thank you Homer! ;) [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black][/COLOR] [/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]You understand exactly what I am saying, use your Italian where it is an advantage, like a local Italian Estate Agent who hopefully deals with local Italians but be very very wary of the ones who hit on the English and it MAY be an advantage if they are unaware that you understand Italian until you have been able to assess what is going on. [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]Having said that there are some very good English/Italian agents/middlemen as well but if you know what to look out for then you are less likely to be taken in because you can catch them out first before you have signed. [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/CENTER]
[CENTER][COLOR=black]The whole point of my comment in the first place was because Relaxed implied it was a silly thing to ask and with everything that I have learnt over the last year, I do not think it is silly at all. Relaxed who has lived in Italy for more than 20yrs has little concept of what it's like to be the new kid on the block and still trying to find your way around the maze of property buying in Italy. It's different, a different culture, complicated by some that are not so honest. [/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]

The point which I regarded as silly was simply the notion that pretending to not speak a language, if you do really speak it well - seemed daft to me!

Well it clearly wasn't in the case of the person I know who understood the conversation that went on in the background. :p

homer I like the cut of your gib!

You must have seen the last thread praising an agent in Abruzzo.I tackled the poster but he hasn't replied and frankly I'd be amazed if he did as its obvious that some people are using the forum.

It should'nt be too hard for the mods to banish them.They may be in the right mood having not done so much of that lately!

Becky

If you act dumb, then people think you are dumb.And they treat you accordingly.
So if you know the lingo, use it, its to your advantage, not theirs.
Nevertheless, either way its more important you brush up with the legalities
of the situation, because language aside, a good crook is good in either
situation......

Now, now Becky.. no one else needs banishing, poor Aliena is spinning in her grave and at least two others have self destructed.. so we are all one big happy family now! ;)

Back on topic.. kinda

I was intoduced to someone as the 'English woman', we said hello and smiled at each other. She obviously assumed I didn't understand Italian.

I was listening to music and played one part of a CD over and over.. some time later, I heard this lady say to the other people there.. "If she plays that song again, I will.."

Anyway, you get the idea. :D

Being even more cattiva than usual and knowing she had embarrassed others who knew me well.. I winked at them and played the song 3 or 4 more times, before finally turning to her and saying.. in Italian. "I adore this track, it's one of the best songs this singer has ever released.. don't you like it?"

We both burst out laughing.

So.. keeping quiet about what you know or understand does have it's advantages sometimes.. you get to hear things you wouldn't otherwise hear.. and if you are lucky.. you can make a friend.

:) :)

P.S. Regards to Marge.

We almost fell into the trap of using a non-registered estate agent, and just avoided getting well fleeced. Having found out in time to sort it with a lawyer we now own the property. However, we were fortunate to meet and English speaking Italian family, whose son is a geometra and they have all been an invaluable help. I will send more details should you want to follow this up.We live in Liguria where the properties inland from the coast (very beautiful areas and still unspoiled by the stranieri) are still very reasonably priced. Our language skills are not brilliant (but improving!) so our geometra's local knowledge was (and still is) fantastic as he has continued to help us with many of the smaller but often puzzling matters, such as driving licences, certificato di residenza etc., as well as good gardening tips from his dad! Lots of luck with your search - how about looking at Liguria!?!

Thank you for your comments, and yes we are thinking of renting a place before we buy as this will not be a holiday home, it is for permanent living. As we are intending to live in a village or small town, we want to find out what a place is like at different times of the day. I don't think 'Relaxed' understood my point; I certainly don't intend to be 'devious'. After reading about various peoples' negative experiences with English agents I want to ensure that any 'translation' given is authentic and correct.

Thank you Tanny for your comments and I am happy that you finally found your dream property. We are looking initially at Lunigiana but will be also visiting Liguria as you recommend.

Genna, the advice is good, we know that in the estate selling business there are a lot of naughty people, however it will not matter as you will rent and then buy via an italian estate agent or privately. Go for it: Jock

[quote=Relaxed] In my experience, estate agents (however honest) get a bit frightened by non-Italian speakers - and with good reason - these "foreigners" often make "unreasonable" demands, and however well the agents are trying to do their job they have the doubt that they have not been fully understood by a non Italian speaker. [/quote]

What utter nonsense relaxed!

I don't think my comment is rubbish: I am talking about an ordinary honest straightforward Italian estate agent, faced with a non Italian speaking potential buyer. You and I are both fond of the word "assumption", and (however dangerous it is to make these assumptions), this mediator who is accustomed (at the very least) to his clients being in possession of a codice fiscale runs a bit scared when he realises that these prospects "from another planet" are not only incapable of speaking the only language the mediator speaks, but have no idea of the process that they are about to enter into. This is the point where the person who initiated this thread finds themselves at an advantage - they speak good Italian. (And I am assuming that they are speaking the truth, a less than adequate command of the language will probably lead to the most dangerous consequences.)
I think you are assuming that these particular house-hunters are going to use one of the good international estate agents, who are willing to offer a customised service for foreigners, and when these agents are good they are very very good..........we all know what they are like if they are bad!!

[LEFT][COLOR=black]Again, I beg to differ with some of your views, as I have done so on previous occasions.[/COLOR][/LEFT]

[COLOR=black]There are all sorts of Agents. Equally, there are all sorts of buyer. These range, among others, from being thoroughly prepared and the most demanding, those who have too higher expectations, those with little knowledge of how things work in Italy, those incapable of speaking the language, to those who are unquestionably rude and have little respect for someone else’s time. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]Alas this is the real world. It is the nature of the business. Real estate agents who feel intimidated by overseas buyers, as you appear to imply, or cannot handle these different situations are pretty rare indeed. In fact, the so-called dodgy ones really couldn’t care less, whereas the professional agent (and it doesn’t matter here whether they are international or a small, local concern) will know how to handle a particular situation competently. I think that most of us who operate in this business are sufficiently broad shouldered to withstand the heat in the kitchen.[/COLOR]

The reason why I beg to differ with you is that you tend to make a number of false assumptions about what really goes on, despite the fact that a number of members have already flagged up [I]real[/I] situations that contradict many of your views.

I also get the impression that these assumptions are based on your own personal ideals and biases that interfere with you gaining a better grasp of the bigger picture. For example, you recently said that “the recent changes in conveyancing practices (for new build, or buying "off plan" deals), have become ridiculously favourable to the buyer, and onerous on the constructor.”

There is a perfectly valid reason why the new legislation was introduced last year and your comment shows a definite lack of awareness and understanding of the real and many problems that have occurred in the past, not forgetting the amount of devastation caused, when contractors either committed fraud or declared bankruptcy.

I am surprised to note that for someone who has been living in Italy for 20 years you seem very quick and willing to ridicule such a measure. People have lost all of their money in the past because there was no adequate protection in place. But sometimes we can be so intoxicated by romantic ideals and Panglossian optimism that we tend to forget fact.

I agree with Homer and Trullomartinafranca. I don’t think there is anything deceitful here. But Giovanni also makes a valid point in that if you know the language then use it. They key is knowing exactly when to use it!

If I were panglossian I could almost be offended that you didn't also agree with me Mr Marche! I can only hope I know exactly when to use it and when to stop listening to the Lilac Whine.. which I have no doubt will start rumbling at any moment.

'Tis an earthquake they predict Mr Marche.

All aboard.. final call!

:D :D

I[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]'m keeping out of the argument between CJ and relaxed...very rare for me I must be feeling unnaturally mellow today!

When we went over to Italy last year I didnt know any Italian but I've spent all winter learning and practising so although not great I can certainly speak and understand lots of Italian.

Will I demonstrate this?Yes to most people but there are situations where I should be better off pretending I don't understand.I'll judge these are I encounter them.I think this is a sneaky way to behave and if everyone was 100% trustworthy I wouldnt even consider it.But ...

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

manopello, Go girl, you tell em! This is the real world we live in and sometimes being sneaky as you say (I don't think it is actually) to assess who or what you're up against in the first instance may help. Not that I had the means or needed to, the answers I got back from the dippy English woman were so glaringly rediculous it was clear. :)

Charles, we clearly come from two points of view - though not opposed, more complementary.

As for the recent legislation on buildings "in corso di costruzione": of course I understand where the law is coming from, and am aware that there have been many instances where buyers were left with no redress, either through malfeasance or through bankruptcy. But, this legislation has a downside from the design point of view. In a wide ranging discussion with a very good constructor, he basically came to the conclusion that he should in future protect his own interests by selling only completed houses - rather than offering the purchasers the chance to make their own decisions on finishings and bathrooms etc. In the same discussion the notaio was working on a form of words "in corso di finitura" which would be fairer to both parties, so something will probably get resolved to keep everybody happy (so long as there is good faith on all sides).

You are also right that I do start from a position of assuming "good faith" - which isn't to say that I do not check the detail very carefully, and I have indeed encountered the odd bit of attempted craftiness or outright fraud: but I would never enter into any sort of negotiations if I suspected at the outset that this virtue was lacking in the other party. I would simply walk away. This isn't being Panglossian. And I have to recount that I have met as many dodgy foreign purchasers as I have dodgy Estate Agents.

As to the difficult experiences recounted on the forum with various agents, or properties, I am wholeheartedly in favour of these being aired - for the education of everyone, as I have mentioned many times.

This thread started off with an enquiry as to whether a person with a very good command of Italian should pretend not to speak the language when dealing with an estate agent in Italy. It concerned me that the very posing of this question, and the support for the idea of it being a useful "ploy", came from a "no good faith" position, and I am pleased that there were an equal number of replies encouraging the prospective purchaser to use their language skills.

If you can speak italian you wonj't have any problems. First of all you will not have to use an international estate agent but a local one, this will make things easier an you will have a better chance of finding a property at agood price... uscany is very popular though, and prices are quite high. You might want to consider to move a little north or south.

Paola

[quote=manopello]I[FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3]'m keeping out of the argument between CJ and relaxed...very rare for me I must be feeling unnaturally mellow today!

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

Becky...

Becky...

I wouldn't say that this is an argument. There's no war here, just some different views, which makes this thread interesting.

[LEFT]Relaxed,[/LEFT]

I think that most of us, including myself, start from a position of good faith. I have lost count of the number of times I have done something according to the principle of good faith and fair dealing. Paradoxically, although good faith is recognised in all European legal systems, both the extent and method of application appear to diverge significantly. In Italy it seems that the undefined character of good faith can lead to situations where any judge applying it is able to use wide discretionary powers. This can lead to uncertainty of course.

[COLOR=black]I agree with you that there are also buyers who are less than honest or courteous. This is something that I have come to accept, however, even though it is part of my work that I least enjoy. [/COLOR]

I too am with you as far as walking away from any “uncomfortable” situation is concerned and I wish that more people would do this rather than succumb to the belief (hence the Panglossian optimism) that all will work out in the end.

I receive e-mails from many people experiencing difficulties. I also translate and edit a lot of legal documents and so I’m probably more exposed to the problematic issues than most. Unless the information is publicly available, I cannot divulge specific details for obvious reasons of confidentiality. I can however, flag up the things that people need to be aware of. Some individuals claim that this amounts to cheap conspiracy theory, but these problems are not part of some mystical plot defying the laws of gravity, they are [I]real[/I] and in some cases [I]do[/I] have some pretty dire consequences for the injured parties involved.

[FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]I find that the majority of buyers go for either renovation or contract on plan developments where they make payments in stages as building work progresses, so I guess everyone will need to get used to applying the relevant statutes according to the purpose for which they have been designed, although this shouldn’t prevent mutual consideration with regards to the interests of the parties involved.[/SIZE][/FONT] [/FONT]