3762 Preventivo requires information?

Glen

I booked my car in for a routine service yesterday. The receptionist on the telephone would not book it in until I gave her my full name, address and car registration number! Fair enough.. but when she asked for my date of birth.. I lost the plot.

It made me wonder if they were going to service the car.. or me.

Cant wait to find out! :D

I would suggest that they are asking for this information because - if you accept the preventivo - it might well form the basis for a contract.
In Italy it is common to be asked for this personal data (most of it, but not the address, is included in the Codice Fiscale if you have one). To offer this information does not bind you in any way to accepting the preventivo.

Hope the preventivo comes out less than twice the sum you had anticipated :)

[QUOTE=GlenB]I have requested a preventivo for building works - it should just be a quote at this point but they want to know -

- where are you born
- birth date
- your residence adress

Why?[/QUOTE]

If you feel they are burglars don't give them your address :)

Anyway, as Relaxed has already said, a "preventivo" isn't a legal document. In Italy (like in UK I guess) a document not signed is wastepaper.

Has there not been situations where the wasn't a signed agreement but because work had been carried out they argued the point. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that the case when a house had been viewed with one agent but the purchaser brought the same house through another agent. No signed agreement about viewing but they still tried to sue.

[QUOTE=Anastasia]

It made me wonder if they were going to service the car.. or me.

Cant wait to find out! :D[/QUOTE]

I am sure, that at your age, you will be sorely dissapointed (But have a very nice running car)

Andy

That's right Andy.. shatter a dream.. break my heart.. destroy all hope.

Wotya doing Saturday?

:D :D

[QUOTE=Anastasia]That's right Andy.. shatter a dream.. break my heart.. destroy all hope.

Wotya doing Saturday?

:D :D[/QUOTE]

I'll be washing my hair!!!:confused:

May be able to fit you in around Thursday. Phone Wednesday night and I'll see if i can fit you in.:D

Andy

I actually know of people that talked to a firm of solicitors in italy with no written contract or verbal agreement for aprox four hours and ended up having to pay e3000 after they turned down there offer for a full service which was billed at e20,000, their preventivo.Stated in the preventivo was the fact they would not charge for the initial consultation and help.

I know another person that got a preventivo did not sign the contract in it for the work to be carried out because he was not happy with it and ended up having to pay for loss of proposed earnings.

So i am not sure preventivos here are all they are made out to be and i would be careful about making sure that you are actually getting something for free. I am not sure how to tell you to assure this fact. Maybe there is some sort of wording that makes it sure maybe this is a case for a bit of care and a few more comments before you happily hand over your identity and get them started.

homer has posted something which is, in my opinion, a bit alarmist!
If the document is clearly headed "preventivo", it is an estimate. There should be no charge for this.
Think for a moment about the figure you cut with a potential contractor, or a geometra, if you say "well, I'd rather not pass on any such personal details to you". I promise you, you will be seen by them as a very strange foreigner, who probably won't pay his bills in the future. If you don't want to give your address, I am sure the preventivo can be supplied c/o your geometra.

Some companies do actually charge for providing a preventivo and so will ask for this information. It may also have something to do with the new legge antiriciclaggio (money laundering), which now places the burden of responsibility on companies to reveal the identity of their clients.

However, there is nothing sinister about such a request and I wouldn’t worry too much about it, although make sure that the estimate is crystal clear with regards to what is involved and how much it is going to cost you. Some estimates can be confusing, so be on your guard. I would also ask the contractor if he is expecting you to pay for this estimate.

Relaxed…here you go with your alarmist comment again.

In some cases accepting an estimate such as a Geometra’s parcella professionale for example (which to the unaware looks like a breakdown of costs), means that you have engaged his/her services. I don't think Homer is being alarmist. :)

What you are saying makes me think it was about cheating people. When in doubt rule number one says: never sign anything, ask for a copy of the papers and have them checked up by a lawyer.
There is no law that says you must pay something you didn’t accept and SIGN before. They tried to take advantage of your acquaintance being a foreigner not accustomed with Italian laws.

I guess Notaio could confirm that.

[quote=sergiobuonanno]What you are saying makes me think it was about cheating people. When in doubt rule number one says: never sign anything, ask for a copy of the papers and have them checked up by a lawyer.
There is no law that says you must pay something you didn’t accept and SIGN before. They tried to take advantage of your acquaintance being a foreigner not accustomed with Italian laws.

I guess Notaio could confirm that.[/quote]

Actually Sergio an English couple I know have been issued with a decreto ingiuntivo because they refused to pay their builder's invoice for work that they never authorised in the first place. The problem is that there was no written contract, but the builder had the decreto issued anyway.

The couple have had to file a defence. If they didn't do this within the timescales permitted, they would have had their assets seized by the creditor. Once a decreto has been issued there is no alternative but to oppose it by filing a defence.

Absence of a written agreement/contract, once a dispute goes to court, means that you have to provide proof by witnesses, something which is admissable only when it has been materialy impossible for the contracting parties to secure any written evidence. Just because there's nothing in writing it doesn't mean to say that there isn't as lawful [I]causa.[/I]

[QUOTE=Charles Joseph]Actually Sergio an English couple I know have been issued with a decreto ingiuntivo because they refused to pay their builder's invoice for work that they never authorised in the first place. The problem is that there was no written contract, but the builder had the decreto issued anyway.

The couple have had to file a defence. If they didn't do this within the timescales permitted, they would have had their assets seized by the creditor. Once a decreto has been issued there is no alternative but to oppose it by filing a defence.

Absence of a written agreement/contract, once a dispute goes to court, means that you have to provide proof by witnesses, something which is admissable only when it has been materialy impossible for the contracting parties to secure any written evidence. Just because there's nothing in writing it doesn't mean to say that there isn't as lawful [I]causa.[/I][/QUOTE]

I see. Yes, that is a very unpleasant situation. They had to put down on paper what they really wanted.
What I wrote above was about those people who were invoiced after just a simple talk. If the constructor has made the job means there was at least a verbal consensus on something and now it will be difficult to disprove it.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Is that not what we are saying that a verbal consensus can be entered into without even knowing it, until the bill arrives unless you are very clear before discussing anything what is chargable.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Thanks for the responses - to clarify - the preventivo - is from a Geometra/Architetto firm - that would be looking to manage the whole project.

It would be my intention to either use the firm either to Project manage artigiani I have found - or use another Geometra - who didnt ask for this information and use the artigiani of the former Geometra/Architetto firm.

I thought there may have been some misunderstanding with the firm that they were going to use the information to start organising edilizia

Are there any Italian phrasie I should be using to clarify (legally) - that I am only interested in the preventivo if it is without cost?

You can ask to have that written down, if you like, but the meaning of preventivo is to estimate how much you may have going to pay the work, in that case there is nothing tangible, I mean, nothing they can use to force you pay, because they cannot prove you have requested and accepted to pay the budget….they cannot say that you must pay something just because you've taken a look at the “preventivo”. In this case there cannot be any misunderstanding and this is exactly the case I was talking about. To make you pay the “preventivo” they should ask you to sign something before; simply do not accept to sign anything until you are absolutely sure what is about.

What I’m trying to say is that every time you are not sure what you are going to face it’s better to make a signed agreement in which you specify exactly what you want they to do and want you don’t want.
If the persons you were talking about before would have done that, probably they were not dealing with summons now (verba volant scripta manent).
To buy or renovate a house there are tens of thousands Euros at stake, you can’t be too careful.

In these cases is better to think like an Italian ;)

Sergio, you may have followed other threads where Charles Joseph and Relaxed have intelligent discussions (and differences of opinion) about attitudes and expectations of what might be encountered by "non Italians" when dealing with "Italians". Welcome on board - and keep adding your views on this ever expanding and always interesting interplay of views. There is never a "definitive" answer - I love to be contradicted (and when I contradict Charles he is always rational in defending his position) - but I'm very pleased to have someone who looks like a sensible ally when faced with the "all Italians are crooks but despite this I am determined to buy a house there" brigade. I am sure your command of English is sufficient to understand the phrase "more power to your elbow"!

[QUOTE=Relaxed]I am sure your command of English is sufficient to understand the phrase "more power to your elbow"![/QUOTE]

In spite of my poor English (you should hear me speaking it in a day you feel sad to have that day changed radically) I understand what you mean (at least, I guess ;) ).

Thank you :)

[quote=trullomartinafranca][COLOR=black]Is that not what we are saying that a verbal consensus can be entered into without even knowing it, until the bill arrives unless you are very clear before discussing anything what is chargable.[/COLOR][/quote]

[LEFT]In many situations, unless specifically stated otherwise such as the provisions contained in article 1350 of the Civil Code for example, contracts need not be in writing as they may be proved by other means. [/LEFT]

The problem is the proof. [I]Quod non est in actis non est in mundo[/I] - anything not written down does not exist. You will need a very reliable witness.

I know of another case involving the decreto ingiuntivo (judgement) where the builder has doubled the price originally quoted and wants his money. Because the client refused to pay the builder had the judgement served. Again, no written contract exists. The builder was taken on in good faith. The parties now have to prove, among other things, that there was an intention to be legally bound and the court has to decide, based on the evidence presented, whether the relationship is enforceable.

The point here is not the issue of the decreto ingiutivo. It is, as Relaxed quite rightly points out, that there is no right answer because the laws in Italy are prolific, complicated and messy (not forgetting there are diverging views in contract law across EC Member States). I also agree with Sergio's point (and I've said this before) that it is best to get everything in writing and, more importantly, that what you get is crystal clear and understandable. If no translation has been provided then it pays to get one done by an independent professional.

Before you sign anything you must be absolutely sure of what you are doing.

[I][COLOR=black]Ignorantia juris non excusat [/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black]– ignorance of the law excuses no one. In fact, the law doesn’t admit ignorance and it would be pretty foolish for anyone to plead ignorance before an Italian judge if a dispute went to court .[/COLOR]