3834 Education / Schooling for young Kids in Italy

Hi,
I can give you lots of information having myself studied in Italy. Have you any specific question ?

Thanks sergiobuonanno,

I have found a couple of websites which explain the structure of italian education system.

I now know that school age starts at 6, im i right in thinking that school is a six day week, and each day is roughly 8am until 1-2pm.

You're welcome.....
Yes. From 8:15am until 1pm (or 2pm in case of technical schools). 5 years of primary school, 3 years of secondary school and other 5 years of college. More or less this is the standard system.

Segio

lots of schools are now moving to the five day system with longer days at school, including school lunches especially in some of the major cities

our son still attends a 6 day week school though which if you do happen to like to do things or go away at the weekend makes life hard

the other thing is there is lots of homework from quite early on, and there does not seem to be much planning on the time they think it will take... you can often get two or three hours homework at a time , especially at the weekend...but it varies..school to school and teacher to teacher...

the two subjects that concern them the most are italian and maths... times tables are a must... although moving from england to italy the level went back at least one year in regards learning level this has changed i think now until i would say he is at a higher level than he would have been in england....... this could have something to do with the fact that at first he attended a village school which was small and very frindly and good for a start but now attends a town school which is bigger, still friendly but much more thorogh in an educational sense.... indeed the village school option can leave you no real option or at least your child to get out of it into the town schoolbecause they still regard village schools as behind and becasue of the accent they develop the children are easily identified and made some fun of by the town school children

its an important consideration to start right in that sense because it will be hard to catch up, and the rural school systems are well behind

facilities are generally awful, ie they have computers but no one knows how to teach the children or they dont want to use them because it isnt part of the curiculum... the buildings are generally pretty run down....lack of funding... and you have to buy all the books.... not the text books ....you get a list which you take to a local bookshop ...they fill in a form for you and claim the money from the local government....

the advantage if you see it that way is that the scope and range of the education is less in the sense of the subject range... but the human skills are much better... there is more adult child communication.... teachers are called Master/mistress first name... and get used to seeing your child male or female hugged and kissed by the school adults... its refreshingly open in that sense i would say the best italian teachers are much more commited and child friendly than their UK counterparts

we have also taken the option which a lot of schools are offering of the after school payed system they attend school until two and then have lunch there with a new set of people ... after a break they do their homework at school then have varios activities from sport to music.... but it does cost

on balance i would say a child of the system here is a more rounded confident child and i would say we all more than happy with it

if there is a major failing its at the higher school level...it is pretty useless... still relies on patronage and if you have a very clever grown up child will mean sending them off to somewhere else to learn... there is very little scope even with a degree for talent based entry into the workplace ... the average age here for finshing high level education is pretty close to thirty and for leaving home and having a secure enough job to survive... thirty five... its expensive and there is very little money being allocated into the system so it will not get any better... despite all this it does seem to turn at well rounded young adults...and if you stand them against...say uk young adults ... they always seem to have something more to them... in the sense of maturity ...but i find that in most european counties outside the uk

John..

What about private education in Italy? How does this compare with the 'state' education in Italy and also with the very high standards in the UK? I am very interested in any information you have on this subject.

In italy , generally, state schools are better than private ones. I also strongly disagree with private education as a concept, education should be free and for everybody, and in Italy that is still quite true. The high schools that are most famous (like where polititians were educated) in Italy are state schools, and that is quite a good way to feel the pulse of the situation.
Paola

I agree with Paola.
In Italy public education and school are generally at a good level.
Only some universities (Bocconi, Luiss etc) have a better standard than public universities.
I went to public schools and my children are attending public schools too.
About education time:
my daughter is now attending her 5th year in scuola elementare (the first level) with a 5 days program called tempo corto: 8,30 - 12,30 and 14,20 - 16,30 without homeworks because they are made at school
my second son (2nd year) attends a 6 days program (tempo lungo) 8,30 - 12,30 with homeworks plus 2 afternoon at school 14,30 - 16,30.
We choosed tempo lungo because that year teachers were better in the tempo lungo session.

Grazie Paola e Notaio.

It's exactly the opposite here in the UK - while the majority of state schools are perfectly fine - it's the private schools (actually, they are "public schools", but lets not confuse the issue) that have better education standards and command very high fees. They also attract the best teachers.

Unfortunately, they can also attract the richest kids.. and parents who can be too daft to see that money doesn't guarantee a bright mind!

Where I live, the state schools within this catchment area are amongst the lowest achieving in the North West and yet, two of the very best private schools in England are also just five minutes away (9th and 14th respectively).

So, although I am against private education in principle.. what is one to do if you want your child/ren to have "a good start in life" and the only option is pay for it, or let them attend schools where the problems are so apparent that seven and eight year olds are taking drugs!

All very well if you can afford it - but what about the bright sparks who never get the chance to shine 'cus their parents have the brains.. but not the money?

How do Italian parents choose a good school for their children? Is there choice available or must every child within a certain area attend a certain school? How do you find out if a certain school has a good or poor reputation?

Grazie. :)

I agree with everything adriatica has to say about Italian school. this has been my experience through sending my children to an Italian school and through working in them.

The thing I would add it children generally hve alot more responsibility for themselves and for their own actions than would be the case in UK schools whilst they are in school (different outside). For example it is not unusual for 25 children in nursery to have 1 teacher and the teacher to remain in the vicinity but not always in the room with the children. They would not happen in the UK. Also when there is disagreement between children they do tend to whallop each other first and if they sort it between themselves all well and good but otherwise the teacher doesn't really interfere unless it get very bad. (lots of scratches etc happe in asilo).

I can't comment on school after elementary as I have no experience of it.

My children go to a private school and I work in other private school. I can't comment on state schools other than the people I knew before moving all sent their children to private because they described the state school as a prison. I am very happy with the school.

I agree with everything adriatica has to say about Italian school. this has been my experience through sending my children to an Italian school and through working in them.

The thing I would add it children generally hve alot more responsibility for themselves and for their own actions than would be the case in UK schools whilst they are in school (different outside). For example it is not unusual for 25 children in nursery to have 1 teacher and the teacher to remain in the vicinity but not always in the room with the children. They would not happen in the UK. Also when there is disagreement between children they do tend to whallop each other first and if they sort it between themselves all well and good but otherwise the teacher doesn't really interfere unless it get very bad. (lots of scratches etc happe in asilo).

I can't comment on school after elementary as I have no experience of it.

My children go to a private school and I work in other private school. I can't comment on state schools other than the people I knew before moving all sent their children to private because they described the state school as a prison. I am very happy with the school.

I agree with everything adriatica has to say about Italian school. this has been my experience through sending my children to an Italian school and through working in them.

The thing I would add it children generally hve alot more responsibility for themselves and for their own actions than would be the case in UK schools whilst they are in school (different outside). For example it is not unusual for 25 children in nursery to have 1 teacher and the teacher to remain in the vicinity but not always in the room with the children. They would not happen in the UK. Also when there is disagreement between children they do tend to whallop each other first and if they sort it between themselves all well and good but otherwise the teacher doesn't really interfere unless it get very bad. (lots of scratches etc happe in asilo).

I can't comment on school after elementary as I have no experience of it.

My children go to a private school and I work in other private school. I can't comment on state schools other than the people I knew before moving all sent their children to private because they described the state school as a prison. I am very happy with the school.

the area that you live in can be chosen for schooling but many rural parents tend to take their children into town schools.... obviously rural scools can be quite a bit smaller and lack facilities... so there is a tendency for better off middle class to choose this option of ferrying children into town.... its not so marked as the english difference though but it is generally true that town schools perform better... and the thing is you have to get to know a few people to work out one which is classed as above the rest.... and again it will depend on the city... i am sure in milan for example there are deprived areas with deprived schools and the same sort of drug problems but here because the main town is so small the children all get mixed up, it is not unusual to see the ferrari ...type owners or the bmw 4 x 4 all parked outside the same school with the communal garden wrecks ... and everyone chatting together,

so there is no real answer apart from it all feels much beter and children all seem much happier, teachers are not fearsome , they are approachable... and this despite lack of funding over many years and what i would call very low salaries.... we are talking well less than say a £1000 a month... but they do get good pensions and do not seem to have to spend so long after school working out all the forms to fill in to measure the standards

there are many enterprising teachers that do private lessons after schools as well which if your child is bright or needs extra help there are plenty of options

as a final comment we previously lived in Devon...we were happy with the local primary schoool ... but we knew for all the reasons mentioned by anastasia that we were going to have pay for the next school... which is one of the main reasons for a decision to move....not because we would have to pay... but just that the schools we knew here in abruzzo and the children all seemed that much freer... what i love to see here are children from 8 yrs up going into bars...ordering their hot chocolate and sitting discussing things with their friends... my son does it.... or in the evening they sit at the cafes...sharing sometimes one drink and sit there like little adults.... go into pizza restaturants and eat meals... you dont see them with bottles of beer or behaving stupidly... in general... so thats it... i would forget about the education standard but the person as a whole just seems better out of italian schools

I totally agree with John but would add that success with the Italian system is a matter of routine. Italians lead very regular lives that centre around the children and their schoolwork. The kids come home from school, have a hot meal, do one to three hours of homework and study and then go out and play at 5pm. It's a heavy programme that the parents have to supervise and help with the homework. Expat friends here who have had thier kids do extra language studies and been very strict have succeeded. We are a lot looser with our boys and they have struggled. We have had to have a tutor from time to time and our eldest who arrived here when he was 10, had to repeat 2nd year of media. There is little flexibility for when friends and family arrive from overseas to visit and distupt the routine. Then you may also have to fit in sport or dance, catechism if they attend and playing. But that is the life and there are 3 months of summer and yes the kids have very good lives.
On another score, Bologna University psychology department is carrying out a study to find if bilingual kids are cognitive brighter. I happen to think yes and am looking forward to the results of the studies.

That sounds like an interesting study. I have to say that I have noticed my daughters understanding of maths and science has developed hugely. I thought it was because for those subject, apart from enjoying them, she doesn't need language to understand them completely. But I read recently that children who are biligual they think the parts that control maths and understanding scientific concepts as well as spacial awareness are more developed.

It is also interesting to watch how 2 children in the same family, just different ages language and understanding of a new language developed. For example my son dreams in Italian (I know because he talks in his sleep) but only speaks either one or the other. Whereas my daughter is firmly mother tongue english but can translate mid sentence and in my opinion thinking in both languages most of the time.

my italian is horrible... learnt by talking to neighbours... i dont even bother try to talk in past or present... and i dont know for sure if half the words i know are dialect or italian...and reall i dont really care that much... i just get on with things... but its a funny thing that our son brought up in an english / italian family inthe uk would never speak it... made him different.... he knew it all..we had italian tv in england and he often used to switch to it to watch the cartoons...

now he often starts off his sentences to me in italian and then switches... he makes me jealous almost with the ease it all happens and when we are walking in Teramo he will sometimes ask me to stop speaking to him in English... funny how it all gos around....

but the thing is with bi-lingual people it just increases their brain capacity...if you travel to places like switzerland they can handle four languages... holland often three or so... its already been studied this and proven that your brain develops in a different way to us limited one stroke language people and that it expands not only the amount in use but the perceptional values compartmentalises the parts available and increases lateral awareness...

i think you might well find that the bologna university study will be running over well proven and established ground and basically plagarising research already carried out...because a massive EU grant is available ...and we all know ...well those of us that live here that Mr Prodi, his associates and friends are very adept at culling funds for repetititive studies out of that grand place.....

his grandest feat being on the high speed railway links through europe and its benefit to italy.... " the major benefit to the rail system will be that the trains will go faster" several hundred thousand euro payed into his, and his wifes research company for this gem.... discount anything that comes out of bologna university ... its either all been said before or its so obvious you could have told yourself it...just not receved the hundreds of thousands in EU grants

anastasia

know very little on the private sector education but remember a few weeks back a programme called report on rai 3 were doing something on it...anyway missed the programme but here is the home page... i will let you search for it ... and hopefully it might be able to answer some questions.... i know very little about the private sector here apart from the sort of private universities that offer degrees for people with money who dont want to study

anyway heres the link

[url]http://www.report.rai.it/R2_HPprogramma/0,,243,00.html[/url]

Have no idea if this link is of any help but here it is::confused:

[URL="http://europa.eu.int/ploteus/portal/home.jsp"]http://europa.eu.int/ploteus/portal/home.jsp[/URL]

John and Trulli, thanks for the links.

If there was a prize for the most useful link of the month, it would be awarded to Trulli for providing the link above!

[COLOR="Red"]I strongly recommend everyone click this link and save it to your files - it is not just about the education system in Italy, but a whole host of other delights; from taxes, the cost of living and Social Security to policing, healthcare and local Government services. [/COLOR]

Ronni - send Trulli a tee shirt! :D

Wonderful link!

Aww shucks! :o

Wet T-shirt please Ronny, ooh maybe not, I forgot I'm not 20 anymore! :eek:

[QUOTE=adriatica;33052]lots of schools are now moving to the five day system with longer days at school, including school lunches especially in some of the major cities

our son still attends a 6 day week school though which if you do happen to like to do things or go away at the weekend makes life hard

the other thing is there is lots of homework from quite early on, and there does not seem to be much planning on the time they think it will take... you can often get two or three hours homework at a time , especially at the weekend...but it varies..school to school and teacher to teacher...

the two subjects that concern them the most are italian and maths... times tables are a must... although moving from england to italy the level went back at least one year in regards learning level this has changed i think now until i would say he is at a higher level than he would have been in england....... this could have something to do with the fact that at first he attended a village school which was small and very frindly and good for a start but now attends a town school which is bigger, still friendly but much more thorogh in an educational sense.... indeed the village school option can leave you no real option or at least your child to get out of it into the town schoolbecause they still regard village schools as behind and becasue of the accent they develop the children are easily identified and made some fun of by the town school children

its an important consideration to start right in that sense because it will be hard to catch up, and the rural school systems are well behind

facilities are generally awful, ie they have computers but no one knows how to teach the children or they dont want to use them because it isnt part of the curiculum... the buildings are generally pretty run down....lack of funding... and you have to buy all the books.... not the text books ....you get a list which you take to a local bookshop ...they fill in a form for you and claim the money from the local government....

the advantage if you see it that way is that the scope and range of the education is less in the sense of the subject range... but the human skills are much better... there is more adult child communication.... teachers are called Master/mistress first name... and get used to seeing your child male or female hugged and kissed by the school adults... its refreshingly open in that sense i would say the best italian teachers are much more commited and child friendly than their UK counterparts

we have also taken the option which a lot of schools are offering of the after school payed system they attend school until two and then have lunch there with a new set of people ... after a break they do their homework at school then have varios activities from sport to music.... but it does cost

on balance i would say a child of the system here is a more rounded confident child and i would say we all more than happy with it

if there is a major failing its at the higher school level...it is pretty useless... still relies on patronage and if you have a very clever grown up child will mean sending them off to somewhere else to learn... there is very little scope even with a degree for talent based entry into the workplace ... the average age here for finshing high level education is pretty close to thirty and for leaving home and having a secure enough job to survive... thirty five... its expensive and there is very little money being allocated into the system so it will not get any better... despite all this it does seem to turn at well rounded young adults...and if you stand them against...say uk young adults ... they always seem to have something more to them... in the sense of maturity ...but i find that in most european counties outside the uk[/QUOTE]
Kirstin.. thanks for all of this, I have a 3 year old girl who will join the nursery in September in our local village. The, will progress through the local school until the age of 14 I think. I am worried that she will be held back, she is exceptionally bright and has outstanding use of English vocabulary already (limited Italian thought that will change rapidly I think) but I worry about the dialect and their lack of interest in IT, English, and general lack of funding for the 'extras'. We are located too far away from any private schools, though I imagine when she's older the journey may be feasible. We will top up the teaching of English & Maths at home but how does one teach good Italian language to avoid the dialect (when our own Italian isn't good) in this situation ? Furthermore, everyone is so friendly in our village and adore our daughter, this makes it more difficult to choose to remove her from local school...we dont want to give the impression we dont think it's good enough! Has anyone else had or is going through this dilemma ? Maria.

Just a word on UK secondary schools - good comprehensives have a lot going for them. My wife's experience in 6th form college indicates that the supervised prep in fee paying schools results in students unable to think and work for themselves.
I must say I have not been that impressed with the teachers in the private sector either.
There are international schools in some major cities in Italy but I suspect they could be very expensive.

From memory, fees are 8 - 10,000 euro a year for most International schools in Italy.

[quote=Maria H;89456] The, will progress through the local school until the age of 14 I think. I am worried that she will be held back, she is exceptionally bright and has outstanding use of English vocabulary already (limited Italian thought that will change rapidly I think) but I worry about the dialect and their lack of interest in IT, English, and general lack of funding for the 'extras'. .[/quote]

From our experience in Le Marche ( daughter in local school from age 6 and son from aged 3) do not worry about the dialect - in the classroom Italian is strictly Italian, dialect is only the language of the playground. Both children use and understand dialect when with their friends but only read/write in Italian and are constantly told that their Italian is better than most Italians - daughter regularly comes top of her year in Italian. As for maths, the standard if anything is higher than in the UK. Our daughter is also particularly bright and apart from the English lessons, at no point has she been bored or held back, far from it. Perhaps we have just been exceptionally lucky with the local primary schools but would certainly advise you not to worry too much.

the point about local village schools is that they are often quite limited basically because of numbers, and struggle to keep open because there are limits regarding the number of children and if the school can still run... they are however very comfortable for young children to start in... and very good for learning social skills

the point about dialects and country accents and local schools is that eventually your child will have to attend a town higher level school... now this can often be after primary if the comune does not have media level education facilities or it can be after media... where they have to make a choice regrading either classic,technical or scientific education... and to choose this college..

this is where problems start as regards where they attended the media school.... as town media schools have a closer relationship with the higher level colleges... if you can call them that when we are talking 14/15 year olds making life choices... anyway there is a marked preference in selection towrds town media schools and a certain snob ism as regards attendance at out of town schools.... am not going to say this will happen everywhere ..its a generalisation... but its a consideration...

as regards how to get there a fortunate thing about Italian rural life and children is that there is virtually always a bus service timed to run for school times to the nearest large town schools ... especially from Media onwards...

i would say that one has to think carefully about levels of performance that a child can achieve in a small village school and what will be expected when they start to move on and up the ladder... its often a shock for them to find themselves no longer a high achiever amongst small numbers but average amongst many...

it amazes me here how worried parents get about reports and exam results from even a primary school age... many children being sent off to summer cramming schools to catch up if they get the dreaded N/S on their reports(non satisfactory) if Italian you don't take school life and or choices here lightly

however saying all that .. each child has his / her own way of progression, what i say might hold good in respect of our choices but would not work for another... i would never worry about what the neighbours think about my choice though as if you believe your child would be more pushed and can handle it later on at a school with more resources... ie when our son moved primary school from village to town his hours of homework doubled... and he had to work his way through two extra books to arrive at the level of his new class mates... he also has lost the country accent... we might not hear it as incomers here or non Italians ... but its as apparent to them where you come from as someone say recognising in the UK the difference between north and south,,,, as regards dialects... yes Italian is always taught at schools... but the playground dialects differ from comune to comune, from city to village and this again makes a difference.. in progression in a social sense... "country bumpkin" is maybe an old fashioned phrase but easily recognisable and there is most probably more modern terminology, most probably more hurtful, for what it suggests and its not just an English social prejudice...it applies here in Italy too

[quote=adriatica;89479]
it amazes me here how worried parents get about reports and exam results from even a primary school age... many children being sent off to summer cramming schools to catch up if they get the dreaded N/S on their reports(non satisfactory) if Italian you don't take school life and or choices here lightly
[/quote]

In our area, if a child receives 2+ NS on their pagella they have to repeat the year, this applies to primary and middle schools - and it is strictly adhered to.

Maria ~ I would say that if you have any concerns re a village primary school, then ask to vist it before making the comittment and if it is not right for your child look elsewhere - just as you would do in the UK. If it means you are inconvenienced by a longer journey, then so be it. I can understand that you would not want to upset the locals, but surely as a parent you have to do what is best for your child, not the neighbours pride! If you ask around, you will probably find you are not the first to choose a different primary school.

Thank you for this note.
Although the fees are not a major issue (thought prefer not to pay if not essential), we are located at least to our knowledge around minimum 1 1/2 to 2 hours from independent schools. We never thought about this when we bought in Capestrano as we had not planned Gabriella at that time ! I am inclined to start her at asilo and see what transpires.

this is extremely helpful to me and in fact i think to simply start asilo later this year and observe the outcome will be most the useful. Capestrano has very few children and runs a school system from Asilo through to Media. A rural lifestyle has many advantages for young children (memories of how my own childhood was geared I guess) and after all you do have to make the choices, a rural home in a small medieval town was our primary choice at the time (pre Gabriella). Thanks again.

Thanks anne2 - had no understanding of 'NS' and consequences, I imagine this is why home studying is taken so seriously.

Hello Notaio
I find the variation fascinating between tempo lugo / corto - especially with more than one child to juggle. I believe we have Do the children stay at school for lunch ? Is that time all lunch and relax ? Does the teacher have any resposibility for them over lunch or is that just supervision ?
I believe we have corto, even from asilo at age 3 (seems a long day to us for a 3 year old), but in fact to have the whole weekend together is more useful.
Maria

Hi this is Kirstin, changed my name because couldn't remember who I am anymore.

[I]From our experience in Le Marche ( daughter in local school from age 6 and son from aged 3) do not worry about the dialect - in the classroom Italian is strictly Italian, dialect is only the language of the playground. Both children use and understand dialect when with their friends but only read/write in Italian and are constantly told that their Italian is better than most Italians - daughter regularly comes top of her year in Italian. As for maths, the standard if anything is higher than in the UK. Our daughter is also particularly bright and apart from the English lessons, at no point has she been bored or held back, far from it. Perhaps we have just been exceptionally lucky with the local primary schools but would certainly advise you not to worry too much.[/I]

We have a much similar experience with my daughter having been taught in an English school for two years.

However for my son we have recently seem a different side to the educational system. My son has been having hugh difficulties in his private school in the local town. The teacher, who is poorly paid and pregnant was worse than not interested (giving my son a distincto in an Italian verifica when he didn't even write one letter was shocking). We had had to really fight with the school until Christmas when the teacher went onto maternity leave. The teacher changed and were told my son was so far behind he couldn't continue because he's holding the class behind with no offer of help. Just this statement. Shocked and angry I confront the Headteacher and was told I would have to wait until the end of year for an assessment with a specialist as to why he is having these problems. My son is at this point asking why he can't read and all his friends can. I cry and tell them for the ninth time about my difficulties in school (I'm dyslexic) and an appointment is found in two weeks. I have spoken to some colleagues in others schools and they have said this would not happen in state schools because the fundings available to get the assessments and support those in need as a matter of fact. They have assessed with with no clear reasons for his difficulty other than he's young. Support is being given by the school and the new teacher is very helpful and goes out of her way to help us bless her. We now looking to change schools and have my son repeat year 1 in the local school but are reluctant to because we will have 2 children in 2 schools 20 minutes drive away from each and they both finish school at 1pm. What to do eh!

[QUOTE=darling;89585] I have spoken to some colleagues in others schools and they have said this would not happen in state schools because the fundings available to get the assessments and support those in need as a matter of fact. QUOTE]

When considering state re private schooling in Italy Kirstin has raised some very valid points.
Our son, now 7, was identified by his state asilo teachers when aged 5 as struggling with certain aspects of learning - not the language, his Italian and understanding was fine - he was immediately sent for an assessment, and treatment started within the month. Diagnosed with very mild learning difficulties (ADHD) when he moved on into primary (state) he was allocated a support teacher for 11 hours a week. This has continued into his second year of primary - all support teachers are government funded and when it was discussed with the headmaster his attitude was very much, if a child needs it they get it. I doubt this help would have been so forth coming in the private sector.
Also, in the state sector, if a non mother tongue child needs help with Italian the parents can request extra Italian lessons and they will be provided free of charge during the school day. Again, I doubt this would happen in the private sector.

The funding for the second language students from the government regardless of the school. However the funding for the students with more long term problems which require more specialist support is difficult to get when the child is in a private school. Howevere the state schools employ a number of specialist assistants/teachers and therefore the state schools have more ready cheap access to support for these children and therefore its offered.

Another problem is the way the system works for the teachers in the private schools, they are employed on yearly contract and don't get sick pay etc. and get paid very poorly plus they don't get paid for preparation time. State school teachers do get all of the about. The teachers in the private schools do this to get the points to get into the state system. Therefore the private school teacher tend to be younger and more inexperienced who are overworked and less capable of spotting those children who need help.

Its sounds like I'm slagging the private school system off but many teachers are amazing and work because they have a belief in the system of school they work for or because they choose this. My daughters teacher and many others I have seen in some priavte schools (I work for 4 different schools plus my daughters) are amazing. My observation is in the private system you need to be lucky!