3766 Charging for property viewing

Hello Genna.

There are at least two types of 'estate agent' in Italy - there is the type as we understand an 'estate agent' to be in the UK and then there is the 'Middlemen' - the ones who act on your behalf or poach properties from 'real' estate agents and wack a 'fee' on top of everything.. for viewing.. for translating.. etc, etc.

These charges seem to occur only with the 'Middlemen' type of agents and you use an Italian registered estate agent like Tecnocasa or Gabetti.. you will find they do not charge in this way.. and why would they? They will take fee's when they sell the property.

However, this does not mean that all 'Middlemen' are not worth their fees, nor does it mean that all estate agents are.

As with everything.. some are better than others.

:) :)

Hi Anastasia, Thanks for the reply. Who are these 'Middlemen' and how do you know them (have they got a big sign on their heads!!) or do they just hang around bars etc. Hopefully we have booked with registered estate agents we found through the internet or have been recommended on this forum.

Oooer Genna.. this is the 100 million dollar question!

Who are the 'Middlemen'? They range from the man in the bar to the one with a sign on his head and a very professional looking office and website.

There is no guarantee in life except taxes and death.. just be clear which one you are dealing with or the tax on your sanity could be the death of you in the end!

Registered estate agents are not a guarantee of quality any more than dealing with a 'Middleman' is a guarantee of being ripped off.

If it doesn't feel right it probably isnt, but at the same time if it aint broke.. dont fix it.. sorry to sound so flippant, but to give you a clear answer would be a lie. If you want to PM me the names of the "agents" you are thinking of using - I may be able to help a little further.

:) :)

As Anastasia has said there isn't an easy answer really but if you try to get things clear and preferably in writing, e.g an email before you embark on anything it should help, not only you but also who you are dealing with. Ask outright are you registered if they say no, at least you know that answer was honest! :D There are good and bad in both cases. Just do not sign a thing or arrange for someone to do anything unless you are 100% sure where you stand first. If they are honest they will not mind in the slightest. :)

As a so-called 'middleman' I feel I am 'qualified' to answer here.

We work in collaboration with over 70 real estate agents (REA) throughout the whole of Umbria on the basis that we share their commission with them so it doesn't cost our clients any more to use our services. Normally an REA charges 3% to both buyer and seller, 6% in total. This may seem a lot but, believe me, dealing with Italian bureaucracy means you have to work for every cent! Coupled with that there are the language difficulties, distances, the need to obtain a fiscal code and open a bank account, so dealing with foreign buyers is especially difficult for them compared to selling to Italians.

Secondly, we don't charge any fees for viewing properties. I only know of one company who charges for viewing and that is a licenced real REA! They charge is 25 euros per hour [U]plus [/U]25 cents per kilometre! I know you get a refund if you decide to buy a property, but you don't want to be watching that clock ticking away whilst viewing.

Thirdly, we only charge the statutory 3%, whereas some agents charge 4%, 5%, or even 6%. We are not out to rip anybody off, quite the contrary. Our aim is to help people, in that lies our success. OK, so we sell houses and charge commission, but please don't think that all 'middlemen' must be out to rip people off. I know of one REA that has a ficticious property on their website to entice people to contact them and then it mysteriously comes off the market!

These are the problems in my experience:
[LIST]
[*]Italian estate agents often speak little or no English, let alone Dutch, French or German, for example (as our staff do).
[*]Their websites rarely show more than one or two photos, have little information, are often completely out of date and, of course, are in Italian.
[*]They prefer to get you in the office and go through their portfolio, which is very difficult for people visiting from other countries. This is why the Internet is so useful.
[*]They are usually very laid-back and are happy to brush problems under the carpet.
[*]They don't understand the differences in culture between Northern-Europeans, Americans, etc. and Mediterraneans.
[*]To obtain a licence to be an REA you have to complete a course. The course is in full-speed and very technical Italian so unless you are completely fluent a foreigner has little or no chance of taking the course and passing the exam. The pass rate is very low anyway, even for Italians.
[/LIST]
Don't get me wrong, we have many friends within the Italian REA industry, but you have to understand and accept the cultural differences.

We hope to become an REA in our own right soon. One of our staff has completed the course last June and should be taking the exam in the next week or two. Yes, nearly a year after the course, I know, but that just goes to illustrate my point. We shall still work with other REA as core to our business because we can then offer the best possible choice to our clients.

I hope that all makes sense but if you have any questions please ask.

Hi Graham.

I have a few questions that have always taxed my dormant brain.. and no matter how I think about it I can never work out the answers.. probably 'cus I dont really know how to phrase the questions.. but here goes.

You say you only charge the purchaser the statutory 3% and that you share this commission with the agents who are selling so it doesn't cost your clients any more to use your services.

Does this mean you actually only get 1.5% commission for introducing the client and all the other work you have to do to ensure the sale goes through?

If so, does this mean the estate agent gets 4.5% (because he will get 3% also from the vendor) for doing very little, as he is technically only dealing with the vendor?

Or do you get 3% for everything you do and the estate agent also gets 3% for basically dealing with the vendor?

For example; Would a property costing euro 100k cost the purchaser a total of euro 106k whether they went through you and used all the services you offer, or they went directly to the estate agent? (of course, for clarity, I am only talking about commission fees here and not the notaio/solicitor/other taxes etc.)

Or is the fee you receive increased in some other way? ie; Is the property "more expensive" if viewed through your company in the first place? Do you market the property at say, euro 110k and the agent has it in his window at euro 100k?

I hope you can understand what I mean.. because to me it seems as if it can only be advantageous to use a reputable "middleman" and let him take the strain of everything including dealing with all the Italian bureaucracy, the language difficulties, distances, obtaining a fiscal code and opening a bank account, while I sit back and sip on a Pina Colada or some similar folly, knowing you are going to obtain the best possible price for me and provide an excellent service - all, technically, for free!

Something for nothing is alien to my cynical way of thinking.

See why I get confused?

:) :)

[LEFT]Genna...

It is not customary for a real estate agent to charge for viewing, although I suspect that the company that Graham mentions charges the fee to not only cover costs, but also to qualify whether a buyer is serious or not. There are lots of timewasters unfortunately. Moreover, some buyers make appointments to view and then don’t bother to show up at all without as much as a phone call, or decide to cancel at the last minute after viewing arrangements have already been made.

With regards to costs, the Italian Civil code (article 1756 Rimborso Spese) contains a provision that enables a registered agent to obtain a reimbursement of costs incurred (this is not the same as the commission payable) even if there is no sale. There are, of course, specific conditions that need to be fulfilled in order for this provision to be applied.

Anastasia...In Italy only a registered agent can charge commission. The law says that: "Hanno diritto all provigione soltanto coloro che sono iscritti nei ruoli"
[/LEFT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman] [/FONT][/SIZE]

[LEFT]So a middle man is not charging commision but for a service and the agent would have to reduce his commision, if the cost was to remain at 3%. So there would have to be two agreements signed, the middle man and the agent or either pay the other.
Problem though, if the agreement was directly with middle man then there would be no (in theory) registered agent protection. I guess?[/LEFT]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]Graham I did at first feel a bit uneasy to see you staying on the forum when the person who had accused you had left.I had limited sympathy with her but you do now have the chance to do a massive pr job for your company!

However I'm happy to give you the good ol British benifit of the doubt,plus you like poultry which always predisposes me to good humour!

I think we are skirting around the bigggest problem and that is that [B]Buyers [/B][B]Do Not Know What Kind of Company They Are Dealing With.[/B]

They go out on a viewing trip totally unaware that the person showing them houses may not be covered by the various laws and regulations that a 'proper' Estate Agent is.

What I think is needed is for [B]all [/B]internet companies catering for a English speaking buyer to spell out plainly what they are.Then buyers can chose to make use of their services or to use an Italian Estate Agent if they feel that they will receive a better service there.

Becky[/SIZE][/FONT]

i find the whole reply here a bit mixed up, its obvious graham cannot mean he charges a percentage fee to buyers...ie the 3 % mentioned as that would be totally illegal and it is not just three per cent anyway its three per cent plus iva(20 %) of the fee

the second point is how can a company that purports to be the one that can act as a go between for english speakers or foreigners in the same paragraph admit that as the estate agents exam involves some very technical italian it is not possible to pass it.... i have a bit of news here italian house buying and the paperwork involved is all very technical and if someone cannot understand enough italian to pass the estate agents exam then they should be very wary about advising anyone to buy a house.... and i think at long last we have it from the horse mouth so to speak of why its pretty ineffectual to use non qualified people to assist in your buying process if they could qualify they would there is nothing stopping them...just the small matter of understanding enough italian
am i even more cynical than anastasia...

;) [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]And of course even some registered agents are not tooooo worried about the information a buyer receives. Ours didn't and blatantly lied about sorting out the pre-emtion rights, he had done nothing, even though it stated in an email via his middle woman that he had been to two notaries to draw up the letters for the neighbours! When our lawyer questioned him about all of this, his answer was, not my problem if they do not understand before signing!!!

Hi Adriatica, nice to see you back, can we start a fight about Pug land? ;) :p :D [/FONT][/COLOR]

Ooooooer John..

I've just re read your post .. I think you need to put a few more dots in it somewhere.. 'cus.. I dunno if I am cynical or not anymore.. but.. I know I don't understand your post anymore than I understand Becky's.. or even my own!

The Lord only knows how Graham is going to make sense of all three rants at once! Sorry Graham, I really don't envy you this task! You deserve a medal if you can do it!

I'm off to watch the ducks for a minute! :D

:) :)

anastasia..................

i think graham is being remarkably honest...

"To obtain a licence to be an REA you have to complete a course. The course is in full-speed and very technical Italian so unless you are completely fluent a foreigner has little or no chance of taking the course and passing the exam. The pass rate is very low anyway, even for Italians"

which to me says that they as a company are not or have not been completely fluent otherwise they would be as he calls them "REA" yet have advised clients based on the fact that they are completely fluent .........and as a foreigner anyway you have very little chance of obtaining this fluency... so this means in grahams opinion no foreigner should be working here in the estate agency field.... or alongside it translating ...

the other point is that many italian REA read this forum and the comments about their "sweeping under the carpet" problems might offend a few of the many bi lingual italian estate agents ... maybe not so wise whe the person that is taking the exam for his company also then has to if he/she passes the written part face a whole pack of these dubious REA characters in a verbal cross examination of their knowledge.... might be difficult to pass if any of them have knowledge of his companies broader opinion of them

Genna has uncovered some important points, having been in the estate business in the uk and now in Spain Italy is LUCKY to have a registered system, Spain is a shambles with Tom Dick and Harry all selling property.
Let us clarify you are either qualified or you are not!!- the law of the land?
So - what do we do? We go on recommendations from people we trust, or , what we have learned from our own experience. I have to say that some of the abrupt replies in this forum would put me off taking advice here too although i am always open to sensible advice.We are off to Italy next week to look around with the intention of moving from Spain to Italy as soon as possible, i have noted the advice on agents and will be back to the forum via our lap top to let you know how we get on.

[LEFT]The course culminates with a written and oral exam. [/LEFT]

Subjects covered include, among others:

Relevant aspects of property law
Relevant aspects of civil law – with regards to your rights etc
Relevant aspects of contract law
Rents and leases (private and commercial)
Mediation and sales
The Duties and Tax administration Act
Property evaluation techniques
The Land registry
Planning and building permissions
Apartment and residential issues with regards to joint ownership of communal areas (condominio)
Mortgages/financial concessions and tax breaks
The real estate market

A very good command of the Italian language is therefore essential. However, possessing the requisite knowledge and understanding of the technical and legal aspects involved in this business is imo just part of the equation.

Jock...would be interest to hear you views on how the process works in Spain.

Here we go again..:mad:...the only good thing about this post is that she says that she is not asking for sympathy :(

Hi Lavender,

Thanks for your post but we're all aware of your situation, including your financial problems...

You & GL should sort out your differences in Court, not on any forums. It can only damage your case if you divulge such details.

As said previously, some of us have been there too, with no money and nobody to turn to. I'm glad you've got friends who are supporting you.

GL is not allowed to openly advertise for his company here either, other than in the usual manner by using a signature.

Please leave this matter be on here.

Take care,
Steph :)

Charles, Spain removed regulations a few years ago and you can sell property from the back of your car.They are about to re-introduce it. Most of the problems are people who try to short circuit the system ie no solicitor or legal representation trying to, in their eyes, save a few pounds but as i suspect also in Italy if you do everything legal with qualified representation you will not have a problem. We are about to see as we will be in Italy on Saturday for a two week fact finding visit.!!

Can we not turn this thread into another vitriolic war please!

In fairness to other members who may feel intimidated by this, I would kindly and respectfully ask LF and GL to keep any potentially litigiuos disputes outside of these pages. If there are lawyers involved, let them handle it!

I'm interested to know what is an abrupt reply? Is it one which says "go for it and hang the consequences", or one of the ones which says "all Italians are crooks", or one of those which say "carry a lawyer with you at all times"?
It surely isn't one of the ones which says look, leave yourself time to explore, don't sign up while in the boarding queue on the way home, and open your eyes to the house you fancy and see the cracks for yourself - then speak to a notaio, geometra or lawyer, as appropriate!

Good luck with your househunting

[quote=Jock Adams]Charles, Spain removed regulations a few years ago and you can sell property from the back of your car.They are about to re-introduce it. Most of the problems are people who try to short circuit the system ie no solicitor or legal representation trying to, in their eyes, save a few pounds but as i suspect also in Italy if you do everything legal with qualified representation you will not have a problem. We are about to see as we will be in Italy on Saturday for a two week fact finding visit.!![/quote]

Car boot property sales...I can envisage another TV programme here. :D
Jock...just take your time and don't be rushed into the deal and you will be OK.

We have nothing to hide. Our website clearly states, under 'about us':

"La Porta Verde s.r.l. (equivalent of a limited company) is an Italian company registered as a marketing company with the Camera di Commercio (Chamber of Commerce) reg. 238569. As such we trade as a marketing company for estate agents, but also for a wide range of other related businesses. Our partita d'IVA (VAT no.) is 02750450542."

and

"We work as intermediaries in close association with nearly 70 estate agents throughout Umbria. We select properties from their portfolios that we think you will like, visit them and put them on our website."

and, under 'Selling your property':

"Firstly, it is important to point out that La Porta Verde is currently not an estate agency. We are an Italian s.r.l. (limited company) licenced and registered as a marketing company for estate agents in Umbria, numbering over seventy at present. They agree to share their normal commission with us so it costs neither the buyer or seller any more than dealing solely with an agent. For clients who approach us directly to sell their property we must involve an estate agent in the sale but this is academic as far as you are concerned in that we use one particular agent with which we have an especially close relationship."

We took advice from our commercialista and our notary and they recommended that this is how we should trade.

Regarding commission charges. Normally you, as a buyer would pay the estate agent 3% (or more) as commission when buying a house. The seller also pays them 3%, so they get 6% in total.

The estate agents we work with, currently over 70, allow us the buyer's 3% in return for finding them the client and obtaining their fiscal code, bank account, etc. This is quite a normal arrangement and I have only ever been turned down by one company. Naturally it would be pointless for the buyer to pay them and then for them to pay us so it is charged directly to save double taxation. Usually the agent accompanys me, or one of my colleagues, when taking clients to see a house but once the relationship has developed and trust built up they often let me go alone, in which case I am representing them.

We know some agents who don't publish the prices for their properties. This is usually because they have two prices; one for Italians and one for foreigners. We don't deal with these people as we consider this unfair. We fight the corner on negotiation for our clients, trying to get the best possible deal for them. For us a happy client (and most are) is one who will recommend us to others and if they feel they have been overcharged for a property then it won't be good for us.

I know my presence on this forum may be seen as a PR stunt by some. If you view it that way then I am sorry, but that's a very cynical way of looking at it. I am here to answer questions and help people with my experience. If that occasionally results in a sale then that would be your choice.

[CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=black]Graham, as I said because the agreement is not directly with a registered estate agent there is no protection.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Due to the fact that we did sign directly with the registered estate agent, even though working with his middle woman, our lawyer was able to point out to the registered agent various obligations that where not followed through.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]This has put the agent into a situation that he can not claim the full amount of commission (6% plus IVA) he originally requested for a number of reasons, too complicated to go into on here but although he was not the most honest of agents, the fact that he was registered did protect us in the long run! [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Sue, I need that Cava! ;) [/COLOR][/CENTER][/CENTER]

No Graham, the 'case' should not be discussed but as in the past we put points and situations to others, even notaio, it helps to clarify the whole process for others. I know of quite a few who have brought through middle men and are extreemly happy with the outcome and continued support but it never does any harm to flag up what all of this means so choices can be made. It's the lack of understanding the causes so many problems.

Your posts have been very helpful and you should not shy away from posting on the subject, if you are honest, up front and take on board what members have to say too, surely it's a good thing. :)

[QUOTE=Charles Joseph]Can we not turn this thread into another vitriolic war please!

In fairness to other members who may feel intimidated by this, I would kindly and respectfully ask LF and GL to keep any potentially litigiuos disputes outside of these pages. If there are lawyers involved, let them handle it![/QUOTE]

Charles, I don't see why I am being asked to keep my dispute outside this forum when I have not posted any replies! We are indeed letting our lawyers handle it and our action is being taken through the real courts, not kangaroo courts (a.k.a. web forums).

[QUOTE=trullomartinafranca]No Graham, the 'case' should not be discussed but as in the past we put points and situations to others, even notaio, it helps to clarify the whole process for others. I know of quite a few who have brought through middle men and are extreemly happy with the outcome and continued support but it never does any harm to flag up what all of this means so choices can be made. It's the lack of understanding the causes so many problems.

Your posts have been very helpful and you should not shy away from posting on the subject, if you are honest, up front and take on board what members have to say too, surely it's a good thing. :)[/QUOTE]
Well, thank you! The strange thing is that people will often buy a property privately from someone they spoke to in a bar and use a friend who speaks a bit of Italian to help with the purchase and, if they are lucky, rub their hands together with glee. I know of one such person who paid a large deposit, moved in immediately and then found that she couldn't buy the house because there was no right of way to it! The seller owned all the land around it and demanded a ransom for access. [U]This[/U] is the type of warning that should be brought to people's attention.

[quote=Graham Lane]Well, thank you! The strange thing is that people will often buy a property privately from someone they spoke to in a bar and use a friend who speaks a bit of Italian to help with the purchase and, if they are lucky, rub their hands together with glee. I know of one such person who paid a large deposit, moved in immediately and then found that she couldn't buy the house because there was no right of way to it! The seller owned all the land around it and demanded a ransom for access. [U]This[/U] is the type of warning that should be brought to people's attention.[/quote]

I agree. This sort of thing extends to other facets and not just the purchase itself. It pays to be prudent!

[quote=Graham Lane]Charles, I don't see why I am being asked to keep my dispute outside this forum when I have not posted any replies! We are indeed letting our lawyers handle it and our action is being taken through the real courts, not kangaroo courts (a.k.a. web forums).[/quote]

I know that you haven't replied directly to LF's post. The problem is that this dispute is becoming personal and nasty and I am concerned that it will just put some people off from using this forum.

I am locking this thread since I think we have now reached a point where it is impossible for a public discussion to benefit any of the parties involved or the users of this forum. As a court case is ongoing I truly suggest that you only continue there.

A general suggestion to any company is to avoid replying publicly and especially in a relatively free-flowing medium like a forum before any issues have been settled with the client.

To clients - forums are not a place where you can exact revenge by naming and shaming unless you remain within very strict rules that esure that you are not slandering or defaming another person/company. We are more than happy to post any facts of a completed court case or any comments that stick purely to hard facts.

A general comment to everyone else. Please resist the temptation to start tangential discussions in very long threads. I have had to delete several posts in order to make it more readable.

All the best,

Ronald