3946 Agent & Solicitor

Yours is one questions with many answers.

Some will say - if you are happy with the agent - go ahead and buy it

Others will say - get a solicitor

Its up to you

I didn't get a solicitor [- my Italian friends advised that nobody in their right mind uses a solicitor in Italy, they rely on the Notary] - all went well - no problems.

However, others haven't been that fortunate - so its a decision you must make, and be happy with.

we have just bought in Umbria - I would definitely get a solicitor. Pref Italian. Our experience is that last minute legal problems will surface, so its better to have someone who is actually getting paid to represent your complete interest. Yes, its very hard to figure out who the Agent actually represents. They switch hats a bit too much for my liking. And still charge a fee.

[quote=Madeline]We are at the stage of considering making an offer on a property in Puglia which we have viewed via an agent. The agent charges 3% for his services which includes a number of things including negotiation with the vendor, translation of legal documents to English, code fiscale and opening bank accounts. On the other hand there are solicitors based in the UK who required a fixed fee of around GBP 2,000 to negotiate, translate, set up of code fiscale and other things. There seems to be a huge overlap in the services provided by both. The agent seems very trustworthy and we are loath to spend money unnecessarily.

Can anybody advise on this situation?[/quote]

I agree with Alan and Bolognababe as there are merits in both of their argumets, but only you can make that decision. If you are buying a rural property there may well be some issues hiding in the background and so it is wise to sort them out before entering into a legally binding contract.

By the way, you can easily obtain a codice fiscale from the Italian Consulate in London and as far as opening bank accounts are concerned, The Monte dei Paschi di Siena Bank in London can offer this service I believe.

Hi
Most UK based Italian lawyers will also do smaller amounts of work on an hourly basis. Why don't you try to negotiate something with the solicitor, for example provide purely legal based work (checking and/or drafting the preliminary and checking all documentation and technical matters for example) and leaving out the stuff that anyone, including your estate agent, can do (open the bank account, get your cf and so on). It would be madness to pay a lawyer £250 an hour to small jobs that you or your agent can do. You will be paying the agent anyway, so to pass on the small yet time-consuming jobs to him/her and leave the heavyweight legal stuff to the lawyer would make sense.
Any decent agent will be able to provide you and your lawyer, if you choose to use one, with all the relevant documentation for the property and therefore save a lot of the lawyer's time and your money. That way, any potential problems will be flagged at an early stage, the overlap of jobs is eliminated and the appropriate professional gets the task of carrying out the appropriate job.
If you send me a pm I'll give you the name of a good Italian lawyer in the UK who works quickly and with a minimum of fuss.
Sarah

We were in a similar dilema recently, whether to rely purely on the agent or to engage a lawyer. Whislt we had no doubt about the agent, we did decide also to engage a lawyer to ensure that there was someone who was there only to represent our interests. Due to sign the rogito soon and it has all gone very smoothly, I think it would have gone just as smoothly solicitor or not.

I am sure we will end up paying lots more having used a solicitor too but I think worth the peace of mind for us.

Only one other thing to add really, you are investing thousands, think hard about how safe those thousands are.

....I agree with TMF; if this house is not the one, there will be others......take your time & consider what you're buying.

If you don't want a service from Mr A, I assume you will not [b]have[/b] to pay for it from Mr B too?

We are in the same position too, we have had our offer accepted and our agent (House Around Italy) are just arranging Compromesso dates. We have asked about a written English translation and they say "We will be accompanying you to the notary and translating oraly there and then, you will be able to ask the notary any queries you have." Is this sufficient, or are we just being paranoid?:confused:

Our agent will actually provide the English translations as part of the standard 3% fee.

Following on from the feedback from the helpful contributors above and a statement in a book I have recently read, "For the English buyer the notary is no substitute for also using the services of a specialist UK lawyer familiar with Italian law and international property transactions. This is the clear advice of every guidebook, the Italian and British governments and the Federatio of Overseas Property Developers, Agents and Consultants. It is therefore baffling why so many people buying a property in Ital do ota take this necessary step", we have decided to contact an appropriate specialist just to be on the safe side.

[LEFT][quote=Babyeddiedog]We are in the same position too, we have had our offer accepted and our agent (House Around Italy) are just arranging Compromesso dates. We have asked about a written English translation and they say "We will be accompanying you to the notary and translating oraly there and then, you will be able to ask the notary any queries you have." Is this sufficient, or are we just being paranoid?:confused:[/quote]

Thats not enough. Tell them you want a copy of the compromesso in English and study it well before signing both. The notary will do this no problem [will charge though]. A translation at the time of signing, I think, doesn't give you enough time to think on your feet and query the details.

[/LEFT]

NOOOOO, I really don't think it is sufficient.
I always prefer to read what I am going to sign.:eek:
I am a training lawyer, if you want I can translate the contract for you.
All the best,
Massimo

I'm confused about all this talk regarding lawyers. What do you pay them to do exactly? Maybe it's because we had an exceptionally good experience, but when we bought our house, we didn't use a lawyer. In fact, I don't know anybody who has used a lawyer.

I thought that it was down to the notaio to make sure that you buy what was on the piece of paper... In our case, the agent had done all the preliminary work and legal searches and checked that the particelle were in order - and this was before the compromesso stage.

During the rogito we had a translator - I think that it is mandatory to have someone translate the legalese. We saw there and then all the clauses and stipulations, but they were pretty much as they were at compromesso stage. So no nasty surprises.

in reply to the babydog etc etc... your proposta ... proposal to buy should have had the dates of the compromesso and final act plus all conditions that you have wanted to put into it.... your proposal to buy in english and italian written and the owners acceptance of your offer accepted in writing in both english and italian.... this proposal should have conditions in it that the person selling has the right to sell...all owners being named plus various standard elements regarding debts and legalities of the building......

as regards your compromesso ...it has long been the habit to have an oral english translation by some people selling houses here ...i regard this as nieve and dangerous.... it is very necessary to understand what you are signing.....

i do remember reading not that long ago of someone in lazio i think accepting verbal changes to a document which the agent was inputing to the computer...howver they were no...the person didnt re read the printed document to check the changes and they were not there

the notary cannot ask you to sign any document here unless that document has been signed and witnessed by a fully competent bi lingual person who has to sign to say they have translated it faithfully... obviously orally provides a ready excuse for any arguements over debates of what you have been told...

at the very least make sure you understand what you are signing and if you cannot understand it in italian insist on a written translation with whoever signing as the translator having the statment that it is a true translation and that they are proficient enough to do this, with the warning they are responsible that under the law they are liable if it isnt....take away both documents and any problems later you will have the english copy that you signed

this is the very minimum protection ... i actually have a debate going on in my head at the moment and the legal help from international lawyers in the uk... not to do wth the fact it doesnt help in a sort of assurance of the legality.. it does... but the little tricks they also play to try and get more money from the customers... its very doubtful there is any fool proof way of doing things here... but i am working on trying to see if there is a less costly more efficient way of moving ahead

i do not agree the notary is to be regarded as a non substitue for an english lawyer... but it is hard to find a bi lingual notary here... in my opinion as an alternative that is a way to head here i would suspect.... but not those suggested by agents... in the sense that it would be better...well indeed you do take on the expense of the notary as the buyer..to have your own.... but they always seem to be more aligned to the agents and slightly unquestioning... if instead of just communicating with the selling agent they also included the person paying them in their communications and request/doubts over a property it might well go a long way to dispelling a belief by many buying here that the notary is just another friend of the agent/seller and depsite paying them has little appearance of actually working on your side at all.... this is a vast generalisation but also a common perception...

i actually also agree with whoever english teacher is... but then you have to rememer that abruzzo has the most litigations on house buys in italy, but only to foreign buyers ... so something seems to be going wrong somewhere and quite often to be able to distort figures in this way...

think carefully

Thanks to everyone for the advice, just as we thought.

The Agent has come back this morning saying the notary has difficulty checking and sending out the compresso beforehand. We are sticking to our guns and insisting on seeing it now !

From what I recall the Nataio represents the state in the transaction. The Agents do a good job explaining everything in English if you need that. However, they won't negotiate tricky legal problems (such as death duties due). It's then that you need the Solicitor. For instance, other problems such as the extent of the boundary. You might be told the extent but are there problems that the Agent is capable of resolving? Can they clearly incorporate warranties in the contract? Seems for peace of mind it's money well spent. I still maintain so. You don't want problems rearing their ugly head down the line when all is done and dusted. The Agent wants to close the deal and get money: the Lawyer has an ethical obligation to you.

[QUOTE=adriatica]in reply to the babydog etc etc... your proposta ... proposal to buy should have had the dates of the compromesso and final act plus all conditions that you have wanted to put into it.... your proposal to buy in english and italian written and the owners acceptance of your offer accepted in writing in both english and italian.... this proposal should have conditions in it that the person selling has the right to sell...all owners being named plus various standard elements regarding debts and legalities of the building......
[/QUOTE]

I'm thinking about putting in an offer for a flat in Venice. It is through an agent and they have a standard proposta. I really need a clause in the compromesso to say that it is subject to getting a mortgage - does this need to go in the proposta too?

Hi Laura,
You have to explain in the proposta that it remains valid only if you get the mortgage. If you don't clarify this and you don't get the mortgage you will lose the security deposit.
All the best,
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

Thanks very much for replying. When you say 'security deposit' do you mean the amount that is paid with the proposta? Because the agent has said that we don't have to pay anything. As far as I can see the purpose of making us sign the proposta is to tie us into the agent to say that we have to pay him whatever happens.

So is it ok to leave the clause that it is subject to a mortgage until the compromesso?

Maybe if you're near Venice I will need to contact you off the forum ...

Laura.

[QUOTE=Madeline]We are at the stage of considering making an offer on a property in Puglia which we have viewed via an agent. The agent charges 3% for his services which includes a number of things including negotiation with the vendor, translation of legal documents to English, code fiscale and opening bank accounts. On the other hand there are solicitors based in the UK who required a fixed fee of around GBP 2,000 to negotiate, translate, set up of code fiscale and other things. There seems to be a huge overlap in the services provided by both. The agent seems very trustworthy and we are loath to spend money unnecessarily.

Can anybody advise on this situation?[/QUOTE]

We bought two years ago in Emilia Romagna through Lacasemilia and didn't use a solicitor, only the geometra and Notai. Just before we were due to sign it came to light the house had had an extesion built in the '70's and had gone slightly over the size as on the original plans :( but our geometra sorted it within a week getting retrospective planning permission or something and we signed on time.:) There again, were we just lucky 'cos it could have gone terribly wrong?

You can only go with gut instinct on these matters but I hope everything works out and you are as happy with your new home as we are.

Lorraine:p

[QUOTE=gardahomes]Hi
Most UK based Italian lawyers will also do smaller amounts of work on an hourly basis. Why don't you try to negotiate something with the solicitor, for example provide purely legal based work (checking and/or drafting the preliminary and checking all documentation and technical matters for example) and leaving out the stuff that anyone, including your estate agent, can do (open the bank account, get your cf and so on). It would be madness to pay a lawyer £250 an hour to small jobs that you or your agent can do. You will be paying the agent anyway, so to pass on the small yet time-consuming jobs to him/her and leave the heavyweight legal stuff to the lawyer would make sense.
Any decent agent will be able to provide you and your lawyer, if you choose to use one, with all the relevant documentation for the property and therefore save a lot of the lawyer's time and your money. That way, any potential problems will be flagged at an early stage, the overlap of jobs is eliminated and the appropriate professional gets the task of carrying out the appropriate job.
If you send me a pm I'll give you the name of a good Italian lawyer in the UK who works quickly and with a minimum of fuss.
Sarah[/QUOTE]

Hi Sarah,
I have been following this thread and are interested in whether to use a lawyer in the legal process.I am getting different views the books are saying be cautious can you give me details of the Italian Lawyer in the U.K

Trish

I've gone on record before advocating ('scuse the pun) use of a lawyer despite the cost and fact that Italian estate agents are qualified to handle a lot of the paperwork. However, it's always struck me that there's surely a risk of conflict of interest as they represent both the vendor and the purchaser? And I'm horrified that someone on the thread is having a problem obtaining a translation of the compromesso, which is such an important document. We both speak reasonably good Italian but would still insist on an English translation, though it could be aruged that legalese is often just as baffling in your mother tongue! Also, I seem to recall we had a lot of personal input into both proposta and compromesso and refused to accept the agent's standard format making a lot of amendments.

If possible, I would secure the services of a local English speaking lawyer based in Italy. The agent will know of one (or several) or else contact the nearest British Consulate. Actually, it's quite useful to keep the number of a local English speaking lawyer in your Italian phone book, just in case...

Hi Laura,
you have to pay the agent only if you buy the house!
If you don't clarify in the proposta that your choice is conditional on the mortgage, and you don't get it, the agent could anyway pretend to be paid for his work.

If you need to contact me you can use my mail:altissimo@studiotiberti.com

All the best,
Massimo

[QUOTE=Madeline]We are at the stage of considering making an offer on a property in Puglia which we have viewed via an agent. The agent charges 3% for his services which includes a number of things including negotiation with the vendor, translation of legal documents to English, code fiscale and opening bank accounts. On the other hand there are solicitors based in the UK who required a fixed fee of around GBP 2,000 to negotiate, translate, set up of code fiscale and other things. There seems to be a huge overlap in the services provided by both. The agent seems very trustworthy and we are loath to spend money unnecessarily.

Can anybody advise on this situation?[/QUOTE]

HI, I may be a little late here and you have had lots of good advise. My experience having just completed last week is, get a Notaio who does not work for the agent and also get a Geomatra, although the Notaio does all the legal bits and goes through your contract etc. The geomatra (if I have spelt that correctely) will check all and I mean ALL paper work to do with the property form check your property has Abitabilita to the plans in the Town Hall (council)
Deborah

[QUOTE=PievediStLuce]My experience having just completed last week is, get a Notaio who does not work for the agent [/QUOTE]

Hi,
just wanted to point out that: no notary "works for" an agent!
Sarah

[QUOTE=gardahomes]Hi,
just wanted to point out that: no notary "works for" an agent!
Sarah[/QUOTE]

Hi Sarah, what I meant was who does not work with the agent or receommened by them as my estate agents wanted me to use theirs!!! oh no......