POPE FRANCIS

I wait the apology for you correcting me and I was right but I think you are not comfortable being wrong. Perhaps this is why others have no temper for you, except of course your "gang" in case you are in doubt you have offended me.

I am certain that Pope Francis will try his best.

How precisely can you be so certain about his intentions on anything? But I know that, for some people, wanting to believe something is true is enough to make it so (in their universe, anyway). The link to the New York Post article was amusing, although I didn't bother to read the piece since the NYP is News Corporation rag with possibly a little less credibility than The Sun in Britain. If it's defending the Pope, it's probably safe to assume that Murdoch either wants to gain share in the NYC Catholic demographic, or he's hopeful there might be business to be done with the new boss in the Vatican. Oh, and Rikardo, it's probably not wise to hold your breath waiting. I suspect you may well be on the Holy Lady's Index Prohibetur Personis (or something like that).

Come on Al, just how did you get that part of Santa Maria's post to "quote" (almost) correctly on this God forsaken forum? Spill the beans lad and I'll get Gala to open the Pearly Gates for you when the time comes.  (Which I sincerely hope wont be for at least another hundred years or so.)

I said that I would not answer further mails on the previous thread and I normally keep my word,; however, certain posts are prompting me to open this new thread in order to clarify false allegations raised. A member said : "It's not like I made wild, baseless accusations about the new Pope". Well, I am sorry, but, although it may not have been your intention, you did exactly that. Pope Francis has been the victim of a well orchestrated campaign by the current Argentine government, led by a journalist called Horacio Verbitsky, a member of the notorious Montoneros terrorist group and a presidential advisor to the Kirchners. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horacio_Verbitsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montoneros http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/editorials/all_francis_enemies_qhOl... There is even a fake photograph that can be seen if you care to Google "Pope Francis images" which supossedly portrays Pope Francis giving communion to dictator Videla. This photo does not show Pope Francis, as you can only see the back of an elderly priest (Pope Francis was in his 40's at the time and he was not Archbishop of Buenos Aires) giving communion to the general. This photo has been widely shown in the Web by people who have not checked those details and by a few blogs, most of them from the extreme left, who sympathise with the Montoneros and the Kirchner government. Many of them have not checked the details and have fallen into the trap. There are also quite a few web sites (unfortunately in Spanish) that deal with the topic "Montoneros in the current Argentine government". And Verbitsky appears on them. I do not have the Holy Father's phone number, I only joked that I had God's personal phone number, but I would not give it to some people so that he will not get nuissance calls. On the other hand, I lived in Argentina and I know many people there with whom I am in touch and they have given me relevant information on the topic. I also have close ties with the Jesuit Order and people who personally met the new Pope over quite a few years. On the personal side, some members have suggested that we are brain-washed, gullible, uneducated people who blindly follow what the Catholic Church says. I can confidently reply that this is not my case. Although I am a Catholic, I am not a person who follows what the Church dictates and I have my own version of religion in which I act according to my conscience. I believe that we are responsible for our actions before God and that it would be Him , in His Mercy, who will judge us. You may not see me in Church every Sunday and I have friends who profess a variety of religions and philosophies. Some are agnostic and some are atheists and I do respect their beliefs or lack of them. I sincerely think that God will judge us according to our intentions and deeds and that he will be merciful and kind. Regarding education, brain-washing, etc, I do have a wide education and my tertiary studies, majoring in French philology, literature and history do not make me a suitable candidate to be gullible. Furthermore, my education has taught me to be tolerant both religiously and culturally. I have had the opportunity of living in different countries and cultures and this has enriched me immensely. It seems that people with narrow horizons are more likely to suffer from bigotry and intolerance. Because I had enough with certain members of the Community who systematically try to harass and create havocq for the simple pleasure of destroying this Community, I inform everyone that these people are now on may "ignore list". So if you see that I do not answer certain posts it is because of this reason. I have tried over the time to have them acting in a polite and acceptable manner; however, they insist on personal attacks and harassment and I simply had enough. We all know who they are. On the other hand, I welcome an argument with anyone and I have done that consistently and respectfully. Discussion is important and interesting and we all have things to learn from each other. I trust that the new Pope will mark the start of a new era in the Catholic Church. He is a good, kind, compassionate man and we really need someone like him. The Church has made many mistakes and will possibly keep on making them as it is made up of human beings and we are imperfect. There is good and there is evil and we can only hope that there will be more good than evil. At least, I am certain that Pope Francis will try his best.       esme, you must to copy all, then to the clip board in the task bar, and a place open to paste. It is a copy, not a quote but a copy which will not be changed. Thank you Al, I still breath.

Come on Al, just how did you get that part of Santa Maria's post to "quote" (almost) correctly on this God forsaken forum?

It is pretty pathetic (and not pretty at all), isn't it? What I just did with yours is: 1) highlight and Ctrl-C copy text in your post, 2) click the quotation mark button in the row of icons immediately above the comment text box, 3) Ctrl-V paste, 4) carriage return, 5) click the quote button again to turn off italics and tab indent.

Basta bambini - this is a forum about Italy - not about religion, popes, or Argentina.  there are much more important things to discuss than whether a pope chooses a gold or iron cross from his crucific wardrobe.  

Alan, if you Google "Pope ennemies" looking not only at the NYC Post entry, you will find plenty of articles saying the same thing. And if you speak several languages, as I do, you will find the same information repeated with the same data. NOw, the British press prefers to concentrate on other type of news. They are only proving their ignorance and hidden agenda. Ram, sorry But we are talking about something related to Italy. As far as I know, the Vatican is right in the middle Rome and not in Kuala Lumpur. The POpe is also the Bishop of Rome and this is the title that he likes the most. Pope Bergoglio is also of Piamontese origins. I know that it is nt a topic that you particularly like, but I do and there are always other topics that I maynot be interested in, which I still discuss. As I said, I thought that it was a matter of conscience to inform that all those allegations were part of a smearing campain by the current Argentine government that happens to hate Pope Francis because he had told them that they ore not doing what they should to help the large amount of poor people in the country.

Alan, I forgot to answer one of your questions. I am not the only one who knows Pope Francis intentions. You only have to look at what he has consistently done and said throughout his life and what he keeps on saying now. There is plenty of information on the Web and he is living proof of his philosophy. You only have to take a non-partisan approach.

I'm off. I'll check back again in a couple of months to see if anything interesting or informative is going on.

Still waiting, what ignorant behaviour from one who professes to know the right of everything! It does no service to the religion or the new Pope  to be represented so. Shame! i also will go now for I waste no more time to converse with someone who has shut up the ears.

Wow!  Gets bitchy on these forums...  I am not a catholic, but will say that he seems a nice, genuine guy.  My only slight concern is his stance re the Falklands....  However, Popes are non 'political' are they not?

Couldn't resist this snippet - apparently Pope Pius II (C15th) wrote porn. There is (if anybody happens to have the book to hand) a  citation here.  Cawthorne, Nigel (1996). Sex Lives of the Popes. London: Prion. p. 151. ISBN 185375207X. Looks like a book worth reading if it has more than two pages!!

Fillide, the history of the Papacy is full of saucy stories, remember the Borgias. Fortunately, it is all in the past and I trust that it will stay there. As I keep on saying, the Church is made up of imperfect - and some very naughty - human beings. Saints and sinners, the whole spectrum.

Maggi, I was fearing that this issue was going to be raised, mainly because it may prompt more discussions and also because some members may object by saying that this topic does not concern Italy; however, here is what I know and I will leave it up to everyone to raise their own conclusions. I do know that this is a UK based site and that the majority of members are British and have their own position on the issue, but allow me to give you some details about both sides of the story. First of all, take into account that Argentinians consider the Malvinas as rightly theirs. They learn this from a very early age. It gets repeated throughout their education and Jorge Bergoglio was born and educated in Argentina. It may be important, at this stage, to have a look at a well balanced account of the dispute which clearly states each side's position and arguments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute You would be able to realise that it was very easy for the Argentinian military junta to launch the country into a war. They hoped that this war will not only serve as a smoke screen to their crimes and failures but that it would also unite Argentinians, who were going through a real civil war at the time. They were so convinced about this that they had no worries enrolling their ennemies, the Montoneros, the same people they tortured and killed to help in an operation that went wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Algeciras The whole war was a terrible mess and the Argentine side was devastated. The problems of the veterans, who are highly traumatised not only by the conflict but mainly by the treatment of their own military officers has been dramatic. They lack everything and the majority live under very difficult conditions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_of_the_Falklands_War Now, if you were an Argentinian and the Cardinal-Archbishop of Buenos Aires, what would you say to them in the homily? That they were used and abused? No, that they were doing their duty in fighting on behalf of their homeland. That's what anyone would expect. Cristina Kirchner tried to score points when she visited the now Pope Francis by giving him a letter asking for his support. That would have also been expected of her, keeping in mind the type of person she is and her "penchant" for doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. There is a big gap between the Kirchner government and the Pope and they are the ones behind all the lies that circulate; however, she forgot an important point, she was no longer talking to Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio Cardinal-Archbishop of Buenos Aires and an Argentine citizen, she was talking to Pope Francis, who has no nationality and will use a Vatican passport to travel. And Pope Francis cannot take sides on this issue. He will only intervene to try to reconciliate both sides, as this is his new role. As I have given you plenty of facts about this topic, allow me to mention a last point. The love-hate relationship between the UK and Argentina is nothing new. Did you know about the failed invasions of Argentina by Britain which took place in the XIX Century? From the horse's mouth: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4779479.stm Both Britain and Argentina have issues to settle; however, I am confident that sanity would prevail and if Pope Francis has to intervene, it would be to try to find final peace for both sides. And for those who may not be aware of what we are talking about, here is the piece of news: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21835363

Apologies Gala,  I have no wish to start a whole new issue, which as you say, is not Italy related only as far as the New Pope is concerned.  I hope everyone on the forum is sensible and this does not expand into another heated discussion! You make a good argument, I have an Argentinian sister-in law...  However, the vote by the population went to the UK.  Like you I hope sanity prevails....

What I just did with yours is: 1) highlight and Ctrl-C copy text in your post, 2) click the quotation mark button in the row of icons immediately above the comment text box, 3) Ctrl-V paste, 4) carriage return, 5) click the quote button again to turn off italics and tab indent.  

What I did was:

1. Highlight and Ctrl-C
2. Click the quotation mark button
3. Ctrl-V
4. Hit return
5. Hit the quote button again
6. Hit Numbered List
7. Typed my reply
8. Deleted all by mistake
9. Repeated steps 1 through 7
10. Wished I hadn't asked! 

What I just did with yours is: 1) highlight and Ctrl-C copy text in your post, 2) click the quotation mark button in the row of icons immediately above the comment text box, 3) Ctrl-V paste, 4) carriage return, 5) click the quote button again to turn off italics and tab indent.  

What I did was:

1. Highlight and Ctrl-C
2. Click the quotation mark button
3. Ctrl-V
4. Hit return
5. Hit the quote button again
6. Hit Numbered List
7. Typed my reply
8. Deleted all by mistake
9. Repeated steps 1 through 7
10. Wished I hadn't asked!  

Yes this works! Very useful, thank you both for this

What I just did with yours is: 1) highlight and Ctrl-C copy text in your post, 2) click the quotation mark button in the row of icons immediately above the comment text box, 3) Ctrl-V paste, 4) carriage return, 5) click the quote button again to turn off italics and tab indent.  

What I did was:

1. Highlight and Ctrl-C
2. Click the quotation mark button
3. Ctrl-V
4. Hit return
5. Hit the quote button again
6. Hit Numbered List
7. Typed my reply
8. Deleted all by mistake
9. Repeated steps 1 through 7
10. Wished I hadn't asked!  

Yes this works! Very useful, thank you both for this

What I just did with yours is: 1) highlight and Ctrl-C copy text in your post, 2) click the quotation mark button in the row of icons immediately above the comment text box, 3) Ctrl-V paste, 4) carriage return, 5) click the quote button again to turn off italics and tab indent.  

What I did was:

1. Highlight and Ctrl-C
2. Click the quotation mark button
3. Ctrl-V
4. Hit return
5. Hit the quote button again
6. Hit Numbered List
7. Typed my reply
8. Deleted all by mistake
9. Repeated steps 1 through 7
10. Wished I hadn't asked!  

Yes this works! Very useful, thank you both for this

Oh, strange, it wors too well. How can I delete?

Maggi, the referendum was an exercise in futility. The result was known before it took place. The inhabitants, who were granted British citizenship after the war, in 1983 to be precise, would only vote to remain British. The large majority are of British ancestry with the exception of a handful of Chileans, who traditionally hate the Argentinians. It would be like holding a referendum in China and ask its population whether they would like to become Japanese or Bulgarian. This is the sort of thing that makes relations between the two countries more difficult. On the other hand, more initiatives like this one are needed to heal wounds on both sides: http://en.mercopress.com/2012/03/20/falklands-marathon-brits-win-in-men-...

What I just did with yours is: 1) highlight and Ctrl-C copy text in your post, 2) click the quotation mark button in the row of icons immediately above the comment text box, 3) Ctrl-V paste, 4) carriage return, 5) click the quote button again to turn off italics and tab indent.  

What I did was:

1. Highlight and Ctrl-C
2. Click the quotation mark button
3. Ctrl-V
4. Hit return
5. Hit the quote button again
6. Hit Numbered List
7. Typed my reply
8. Deleted all by mistake
9. Repeated steps 1 through 7
10. Wished I hadn't asked!

  Yes this works! Very useful, thank you both for this

    Nooooooooooooooooooo Ric you gotta get wiv da programme and do it step by step.

Now this is a most hopeful story - let us just allow this new Pope to have a bit of a free run! His choice of Francis (which surprised and delighted me) accords totally with the missions of the Franciscans - so I'm really thrilled (okay, maybe I'll be disillusioned) that it seems Pope Francis has clocked the imperative that a notion of 'faith' could be universally 'a good thing'. I'm an atheist, but at the same time I understand that much of the world feels a need for a spiritual leader, and if the whole of the spiritually needy world can come together behind a coalition of benign people that cannot be a backward step. http://www.cnewa.org/blog.aspx?ID=1015&pagetypeID=35&sitecode=HQ

I believe that we will all be surprised, Fillide and he is really trying hard to introduce changes. He may even surprise the Cardinals who elected him... unless they were desperately seeking someone who would turn things around... which is always a possibility. The choice of name is most interesting. And I am also delighted with that. It is also interesting that he favours to be called Bishop of Rome.  It is obvious that his approach will be totally ecumenical, but the most important thing is that he is a caring man and that his love will extend to everyone, whether believers or non-believers. And this will also include atheists 

"It is obvious that his approach will be totally ecumenical, but the most important thing is that he is a caring man and that his love will extend to everyone, whether believers or non-believers. And this will also include atheists "   And Muslims?

Ram, if you had previous ownership of a territory and you were expelled in 1833 by an invading force from a country that had previously renounced to it, who does not consider it part of its own territory (but the Falkland Islands Company) until recently andd does not grant citizenship to people born in the island until after a war (1983) and you conduct a referendum where the obvious answer is "yes" because there is no option, and the territory is on your own continental shelf.... I am afraid that you have not read both sides of the dispute. And I stress that I am not condoning the Argentine invasion. in my opinion, Gibraltar should be given back Gibraltar and Spain should return Ceuta and Melilla to Morocco. Taiwan is part of a political dispute amongst Chinese people, totally different. And both Palestine and Israel should get their own territories and stop fighting. Countries should not be colonies, or undercover colonies. It is an anachronism. And I thought that you did notlike us to discuss anything that was not related to Italy... 

"......, if you had previous ownership of a territory and you were expelled in 1833 by an invading force from a country that had previously renounced to it," When does England get Burgundy back then?

These articles will interest you, Fillide. They are on Pope Francis and atheists and Muslims. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jakewallissimons/100207974/why-even-at... http://www.religionnews.com/2013/03/15/pope-francis-has-a-model-for-musl... Sorry, Alanh, I have to go now to attend a morning coffee-birthday celebration of a dear friend. I will give you my answer in the afternoon.

Give the Vatican back to Italy perhaps.... Surppress those evil Scottish and Welsh folk living on English soil... France become part of Germania. America's go back to the Indian tribes... It's these very claims of "ownership" that cause the conflict. Eventually they all have to draw lines in the sand, although these lines may change over time, but the changes should be by the will of the people at that time living in the land.

Argentina wasn't fussed about the Falklands when it was just a barren Rock with a few Whalers, Farmers and Penguins on it; now there is Oil/Gas and other possible minerals within it's territory it seems to have renewed interest in it. Personally as I lost a family member in the War there, I would rather the Pope keep his nose out of matters which are not his concern or remit.

People have a right to choose who they are governed by, the islanders of Falkland choice is to Britain. Pope Francis, not 1, should know to be on side with people not govnments. I am not intelligentsia but even I realise this is mostly English forum and you shoot the foot to argue for Argentina here! Read the wall Gala!

Alanh, I guess that you are talking about these events that are related to the 100 Years War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armagnac%E2%80%93Burgundian_Civil_War I think that it would be very different to compare these conflicts. Perhaps, we should think at the consequences of the Turin Treaty of 1860, when Italy, represented in this case by the King of Sardinia, as this was before unification, had to hand over to France both Nice and Savoy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Turin This case will be more relevant to this forum, although a new thread should be started as it has nothing to do with the original topic of the thread. For those interested in History and particularly European Wars and disputes, I recommend you to have a look at a most decisive event which marked European history and that is at the core of some of the most terrible wars we had to endure: The division of the Carolingian Empire and in particular the Lotharingian kingdom, which seems to be at the centre of all conflicts since the IX Century !!!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Turin Steve, I would tend to agree with you in that these struggles for territory are not needed and should be Ancient History by now. I would add that religion gets the blame for many of these; however, if you analize the reasons behind all these wars and conflicts you will find that they are part of a struggle for material power that has very little to do with religion's true nature. "Thou shall not kill", simple as that. I think that this particular thread is now finished. Its purpose was to clarify some false accusations that have been made against Pope Francis. I have simply given facts and shown you the two sides of the coin, because there are always two sides in everything and we should carefully study them before passing on judgement. I am not taking sides in any conflict, but, as I already said, I wished to clarify matters and give everyone a larger perspective on some issues. To wear blinkers is not a very helpful to anyone and fanaticism, in any of its forms, clouds our thinking and our opinions. My last comment will be on the new Archbishop of Canterbury. who seems to be a very nice person http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/19847046 Pope Francis has sent him his congratulations and prayers and I am certain that the two will work very well together.

You read not all you speak not to all. a hypocrit is one who speaks one thing and makes another. The envoy loses credibility for the pope! I thank Allah I am not catholic.

Fillide, late vocations are nothing new. In the Jesuit order, both their founder, St Ignatius de Loyola and also St Francis Borgia were late comers to the Church and before that, they led lives which were not very "pious".  I also understand that the Archbishop entered the priesthood after a personal tragedy. that is quite common. After going through some type of ordeal, they hear "the call". In any case, he will have great management skills and these will be very useful in his new position. I guess that it was an awkward situation for the British Royal Family and I do not know whether many members have attended previous inaugurations. I am also pretty certain that the Duke of Norfolk was there as well. I am sure that relations between the two churches will be very close in the future. At least, the Pope will like that.

You read not all you speak not to all. a hypocrit is one who speaks one thing and makes another. The envoy loses credibility for the pope! I thank Allah I am not catholic.  

Huh?



If Gala has shut up her ears to some, she can not speak to all. This way of behaviour is not good example of Christianity. 

It would be better if she shut up something other than her ears Ric.