IMU declaration

Sorry links don;t work on first post so here they are again - form and instructions

Just pasting info from my Comune on this subjec. I wonder if this sheds any light? DICHIARAZIONE IMU    I contribuenti devono dichiarare gli immobili posseduti nel territorio del Comune, tramite apposito modello ministeriale entro 90 (novanta) giorni dalla data in cui il possesso degli immobili ha avuto inizio o sono intervenute variazioni rilevanti ai fini della determinazione dell’imposta. I contribuenti che hanno già assolto all'obbligo in materia ICI, non sono tenuti a presentare una nuova dichiarazione per gli immobili già dichiarati.. Per gli immobili per i quali l’obbligo dichiarativo è sorto dal 1.01.2012 , la dichiarazione deve essere presentata entro il 30.09.2012.  Non deve essere presentata dichiarazione nel caso in cui le variazioni dipendono da atti di trasferimento di proprietà o atti di cessione o costituzione di diritti reali per i quali i notai utilizzano obbligatoriamente il Modello Unico Informatico e nel caso di dichiarazione di successione. 

That's very helpful of them! Most small comune have nothing. If you have agricultural land (even if you don't farm it) or claim 50% discount because the house is uninhabitable you have to fill the form in according to the instruction document. Confusing eh?

I think its something else - the comune want to you to declare what you own within 90 days of becoming owner - and if it differs from what it results as at catasto - so they can charge you the right amount of IMU - so if you buy a house and then double it, you must declare the new square metrage within 90 days so your taxes can be calculated accordingly.  If you've already declared what you own for ICI (ie up until this year) or you own something due to an act of sale or a donation or a succession, then it will already be at the catasto and you dont have to do anything.  Its whether youve got something by a carta privata, or in an unofficial capacity like a comodato d'uso...  I wouldnt worry unduly.

In the instructions it says you have to complete the form if you benefit from a reduction in the IMU - e.g. for farming land. You don't have to fill it in if you get an exemption (eg. fabbricati strumentale al uso agricolo). I am guessing because you need to fill in a form declaring it's use. Our geometra just did it for us.

I think that this confirms what a local geometra told my husband, that they were trying to update the "catasto" because, as from next year, taxes will be calculated on the habitable area of the house, instead of the built area. As we updated everything about a couple of years ago, we have nothing to worry. Actually, we may end up paying less as our walls are more than 70cm thick!!!! 

Is the form to be filled in if your house is your main residence?

Penny Im not clear on that.  Farming land per se, brings no reduction.  You pay or you dont pay depending on your comune.  If you are an azienda/Cd you are exempt or you pay on Reddito agrario.  If not you pay on Redditio Domenicale.  

No - not if it is your main residence. If it is your main residence and you live in it then it doesn't affect you. Sorry - I wasn't very clear. I meant farming land if you are a coltivatore diretto or IAP. We do get a reduction as the multiple is lower. If the land is in a mountain comune or an underpriviledged area then you don't need to pay at all. It is not clear whether in these circumstances you still need to fill out the form. Some comune are giving extra discounts too so i guess if you want one of these then you may need to fill it out. I can't cut and paste from the document as it is protected but it is on page 3 if you want to look. It says the circumstances where the declaration has to be presented are:

• Gli immobili godono di riduzione dell'imposta
• Il comune non e' comunque in possesso delle informazione necessarie per verificare il corretto adempimento dell'obligazione tributaria

It then goes on to list the specific circumstances. Not many people would fall into the second category I wouldn't have thought, unless you are renting your property to a tenant but any of us farmers must declare the land but not any 'fabbricati ad uso strumentale'. We are in a mountain comune so don't have to pay on our land so I'll have to check if they still want the form or not as it doesn't say in the instructions. It is not very clear either if you bought your house using prima casa tax reduction but don't actually live there. Do you fill it in or not? If you are applying the letter of the law then you would fall under the second category as the comune would not be aware that it was not your main home but I guess that could open a whole can of other worms.....

I'd ask the comune.  After all the Sindaco is a geometra.  An exhaustive list of documents and how tos is in the Tributi section of the Perinaldo website - don't know if that is of any use.  Hope the sun is shining......

If you dont live in your prima casa, then you should technically rescind your prima casa status - at least if you let it - otherwise the Agenzia dell'Entrate will get you.  If you just dont live in it, but live in, say, your OH's prima casa - then thats ok except that with IMU you cant have 2 prima case in the same comune.  

Is there a time limit where you have to pay the difference in the purchace at the lower tax rate? 

If you rescind your prima casa status - and dont buy/nominate another prima casa within 12 months, then you lose your prima casa agevolazione for ever - technically.    If you mean could they get you because you have a prima casa for a little time before you decide to let it out - then its the same as the capital gain law.  You need to have had residence for more than half the time that you have had the property to be exempt from having to pay back the difference in tax - up to the 3 or 5 year limit.   It all sounds a bit drastic, but it does depend on how you let your house - you will be fine with a holiday let.  Rent out your prima casa on a 4x4 and they will get you. 

I have always understood that you needed to have had residency for 5 years before you could rescind without paying back the tax saving for prima casa. Also that if you rescinded within 5 years, you would pay a penalty in addition to the tax (similar to the case where you fail to achieve residency within 18 months). Having said which, I can't find any reference to that anywhere (!) so it may just be one of those "I have always understood........." things. Hopefully someone can enlighten us? TK

I was told exactly what RAM has described above. However, I have had lots of people tell me that it's wrong and that you have to have owned it for 5 years. I even know people who have gone and bought another house because they swore this was true so I will be very interested to know 'once and for all'.

5 years for a second home, not for prima casa.    If you buy with prima casa agevolazione, you can sell when you like and not pay plusvalenza provided you have been resident for one day more than half the time you have owned the property.  You then need to buy another prima casa within 12 months or you lose your agevolazione for good. 

So if you bought with Prima casa and owned it for 20 years but only lived in it for 9 then you have to pay plusvalenza? Seems a bit harsh!

Yes, I agree with Fillide. After 5 years ownership, whether prima casa or holiday home, no capital gains tax. At least for the time being.....

5 years is the limit anyway for first or second home, as Gaia says - at the moment..... 

No its not a problem, you go down to the anagrafe and tell them you're emigrating again.  Your house becomes a second home and everything as before you arrived.    If you dont sell, nothing changes.  

... thank you again Ram, hopefully we will never have to go down that route, but you never know... Thought they would have some time limit on this and you would get hit with the difference in purchase tax if you became none resident in such a short time....

 "thank you again Ram, hopefully we will never have to go down that route, but you never know... Thought they would have some time limit on this and you would get hit with the difference in purchase tax if you became none resident in such a short time...." There does still seem a bit of confusion here - I think we're agreed that the required period of residency is 5 years. Do we agree that if you rescind within the 5 years you do have to pay back the difference in IVA? Do we also know whether there is a penalty, or do they just accept your circumstances have changed and that you need to rescind your residency, and backcharge the tax break as if your house was always seconda casa? TK

  Is it accepted then what Ram has said is correct or is the answer not known? Would a notaio be the best person to answer this question? I'm just thinking that this would be possibly a major factor for anyone buying now or in the future regards contingency planning , after all no one knows what or how their circumstances might change.

OK Ive just been to the notaio and presented him with this conundrum.... there are two factors at play, one is plusvalenza (capital gain) and one is prima casa agevolazione. 1. You buy a prima casa, and take residence but sell it before 5 years:   If you have had residence for more than half the time you have owned the house, there is no plusvalenza.  If you dont buy another prima casa within a year, then technically the Agenzia dell'entrate can come after you to replay the difference in the prima casa ageovolazione you took when you bought.  The AdE has 5 years to do 'accertamenti' on these things.  So, the gamble is 1) that they find you if you've gone back to Blighty and 2) they'll get round to you before the 5 years is up. 2, You buy a prima casa, have residence, change residence before 5 years, but dont sell. - Much more complicated - here it is the definition of prima casa that is at stake.  You have a house, it is still your only house in ITaly so it remains prima casa as far as agevolazione goes, but it is not your prima casa as far as residence goes.  The notaio is going to check with teh AdE but he thinks it actually makes no difference if you dont sell.  Certainly if you just change your residence within Italy.  However, if you then go back to the UK forever, and ditch your Italian residence, it becomes a moot point and you will have to bear with me until the AdE comes back with an answer, but the default - see above - is that nothing changes. 

Thanks Ram - I thought it may not be as simple as we'd like it to be. If I was the tax man and some British person bought a property as prima casa, saving thousands of €, then immediately rescinded Italian residency so as not to be in the Italian tax system, I would take a dimmish view. I would certainly want the tax saving back, and being a tax man, would want to take advantage of the change of residency by applying a penalty. So I still favour the view that says if that happens within 5 years you will be due to pay, even though you keep the property and continue to spend up to 6 months a year in it.  Will watch this thread with interest to see what your notaio has to say! Terry

... very useful information indeeed...

.....that is a very good answer - "I used to be able to afford it but now I can't", clearly showing there was no intention to cheat the system from the start. Hence the taxman can argue that he must consider you never to have been able to be a resident, as your personal circumstances clearly don't allow you to fulfill the terms of residency over the 5 year period under consideration. Which seems to me to be exactly what Rachel's circumstances are, though for reasons of movement rather than affordability. We musn't forget that residency is "granted" rather than simply handed out, and you do have to jump through the odd hoop or two to get it. So I still would guess it's a trade-off between stumping up the IVIE or paying back the prima casa discount, depending on how far short of the 5 years you fall. (While kicking yourself for delaying your residency application for 18 months!). Terry

It would be mendacious if you bought as prima casa without having any intention of taking prima casa, but if you did take residency within the 18 months,  only to move again because of a change of circumstances,  as in Rachel's case - it would hardly count as being mendacious.  At the worst - disorganised! 

Definitely not 'mendatious' and it might seem disorganised but it is what happens to families where one parent works in a job which requires you to be globally mobile and cannot predict when and where the next stop might be! Where we were 'disorganised' and 'naive' was not to understand how precisely the system works...despite several unanswered questions to the notaio etc... it seems we, and our architect/estate agent, were totally ignorant in not realising our purchase taxes would be based on the full (and fully declared I might add!) purchase price and not an assumed much lower catastal value which has made the resident/non-resident thing a much bigger issue for us than for many because the purchase taxes were really high in the first place! We have to start residency any way because the plan is for our child to go to the village school until we know what's next on the horizons...we'll just have to hope it lasts long enough to satisfy the tax office or that they don't chase us if we change country of 'residence' but keep our Italian home (which will be our permanent address)...or that they accept globally mobile EU workers just can't dictate how long they are contracted to work in any given country...All this info' has been really helpful though- thanks to all for your input!

I didnt mean that you were disorganised Rachel, just that it could be hypothetically the most serious charge the Agenzia could lay at your door! 

I think you are asking all the right questions. I have had good and bad Italian accountants (more bad than good unfrotunately!). All charged what seems to me an extortionate amount of money - far more than I paid in the UK. However, it is very difficult to get accurate advice and information when you are still in the UK. Once you move here, I would ask around to find a good local Italian accountant who can deal with the Italian side for you. I have had excellent advice from one of the farmer's unions and if I were starting over, the very first thing I would do would be to join one of the Italian unions appropriate to my job and get advice from them. They are very helpful and an awful lot cheaper that employing your own accountant.

The very nice man at the Agenzia dell'Entrate has told me the following....  As long as you dont sell the house, and you did take residency within the 18 month limit, there will be no problem if you have to renounce your residency before the 5 years is up.  If you ever get questions on this, it is enough to get a visura storica of your residence from the anagrafe which shows you were resident in the comune in question at some point.  If you were to sell, that another minestrone....  Hope that helps. 

... one to file away and those buying can/could now have plan "B" - great info 

Ram, that's really useful to know. I had thought you needed to have residency for 5 years otherwise you would pay back the tax saving. In other words, no matter how you bought the house, it would be considered seconda casa until you got residency. It certainly was that way for ICI. I'm certainly not intending to sell my little bit of Italian heaven, so it sounds like it's of no account. But residency may no longer be attractive, which is a shame as residency does give a nice feeling of "belonging". Terry

I know I have to pay the IMU but how do I calculate it? The Commune won't help, they just refer me to a page that doesn't work.

Go to your local CAF,  might cost €4 or so and you may have to make an appointment... You will need your papers (rendita, codice), you should have your rendita from your house purchase... Or this might help... http://www1.agenziaentrate.gov.it/inglese/  :)